Rebecca Westbrook Toker

Host

Democracy is Spelled OLIGARCHY

Apr 23, 2014·26 visitors

Jordan Birnbaum

Cohost

Stage· 447 messages

Apr 23, 2014

So, a Princeton study found that the US system of government bears very little resemblance to the Democracy that it sanctimoniously goes about trying to spread all over the world. In fact, it can most accurately be described as an OLIGARCHY - a class system in which the wealthy have the most power over policy decisions. I mean, while we KNEW this was true - and the result is therefore reassuring - it's infuriating, disappointing and disspiriting. Come on by and we'll process this together.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:14 AM

Happy Tuesday, everyone

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:14 AM

Hello and good evening!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:14 AM

How's everyone?

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:14 AM

where my serfs at?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:15 AM

I'm having the refresh problem again

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

Have you been holding onto that one all day?

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:15 AM

nope - there it goes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

Oooh, yeah, we're up and running now!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:15 AM

Actually, Rebecca, about 7 minutes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

Nice, either way. ;)

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:16 AM

So - nothing like science letting you know you're not crazy, right?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:16 AM

Right?

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“hiya jordan and rebecca”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:16 AM

has everyone had a chance to review a summary of the study?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:16 AM

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“howdy”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:16 AM

There is the link for the study.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:17 AM

yep - it's prettyy stark

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:17 AM

Full disclosure: I haven't gotten all the way through it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:17 AM

BUT, it's worth reading, from what I can tell so far!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:17 AM

in short, it says that the general populace has no sway over public policy at all

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:17 AM

Good methodology, interesting way to attack the problem and isolate variables.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:17 AM

and special groups and the wealthy determine everything

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“ummm no. i didn't know there was one.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:18 AM

what's interesting about this, though, is that it is approached from an objective research perspective, and the results are statistically significant. That's major.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:18 AM

So, on the one hand, you're like, "That's what I've been SAYIN'!"

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:18 AM

That gets the science stamp of approval

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:18 AM

And on the other hand, you're like, "Fuuuuuuuuuuuck."

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“Yes, the monsters continue to kill us softly.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i have seen things to that effect. we do not matter.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:19 AM

yes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:19 AM

Yes. It's solid science.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:19 AM

Well - I feel that when science can shed light on a political issue, it actually draws a firm line in the sand of "right and wrong" a line thta is sometimes difficult to find

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“so how do we fight back and get the rest of the planet to respect us again...is it possible?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:20 AM

Science is ever-evolving.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“it is good to have proof to back you up”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:20 AM

Make no mistake, "science" can shed light on political issues for all the wrong reasons.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:20 AM

it's reasonable to expect everyone to accept science, and anyone who doesn't should be dismissed from any type of adult conversation

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

In Roosevelt's day, scholars were producing work the "proved" that all reaces besides the Aryan race were inferior and therefore should be assimilated by any means.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

*race

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

*races

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:21 AM

that is so not scientific

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

Well, it was conducted "scientifically." We have to be careful.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“what do you mean, rebecca?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“true jordan”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:22 AM

science is based on peer reviewed journals and the use of statistics in field research to create an actual standard of proof

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:22 AM

even the idea that "superior race" could be identified is unscientific and unsupported

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:22 AM

Well, a century ago, peers were reviewing articles based on observations of other races that proved their inferiority.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:23 AM

scientists being bought is a huge problem

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:23 AM

I guess all I'm saying is that while anything can be spun, the scientific method is a pretty concrete and objective thing.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:23 AM

We have better measurement instruments now, things like CAT scans, MRIs, etc., that would have blown these observations to bits, but THEN, those were the limits of our knowledge...and that was prevailing thought.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:23 AM

so someone saying they use science doesn't mean it's science

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“dang! thats crazy”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“especially now, when, apparently, scientists can be bought.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“or threatened”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:24 AM

Right.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:24 AM

I guess that's my point.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:24 AM

I am very cautious.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:24 AM

I think thta's reasonable

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:24 AM

But, I do think the methodology here is sound.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:24 AM

history tells us so

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:25 AM

I like the idea of separating ACTUAL public opinion from the platforms of lobby groups, etc.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“yes. which ones were bought?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“"question everything"”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:25 AM

I heard someone say that we should just accept it and stop pretending it doesnt exist - form a house of lords and a house of commons like in England

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:26 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Why?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:26 AM

Yeah. That was a funny, biting comment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:26 AM

yep

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:26 AM

Something that is emerging for me in this is the degree to which I hate being lied to.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

What this means for us, though, is very powerful psychologically.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

Exactly.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“one would hope that would go without saying”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

There are lots of feeling happening here.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:27 AM

I've been seeing this all my life and made people uncomfortable when I talked about it

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“well,, that sucks, jordan”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

Yeah. The older I get, the less I can be exhorted to vote. Or even try to participate.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:28 AM

yes - and yet even I got caught up in the last democratic national convention

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:28 AM

@Robin - it's a good bit of the reason FOR the circumstances we find ourselves in these days! Our policy is not for us!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“it is outrageous, especially in the circumstances we find ourselves in these days.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:29 AM

got goosebumps from Clintons speech knowing he caused so many of the problems he was railing against

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:29 AM

its too damn easy to manipulate us!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:29 AM

@Robin - I was caught by Obama-mania. I really believed in hope and change. And look where we are, drones and all... :/

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:29 AM

deportations and all

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:29 AM

whistleblowers and all

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:29 AM

No kidding!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i think it may be possible to get to hell in the proverbial handbasket quicker by voting a "certain way"”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:30 AM

here's what's tricky now - you have to differentiate between Obama critics

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:30 AM

I sort of believe that he was also fooled, to a degree - but he chose to keep playing.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:30 AM

because moire than half of Obama critics are vile and hate him for all the wrong reasons. Bush supporters and the like. And they are the WORST!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“it is! me too rebecca”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“he fooled uys”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:31 AM

then come Obama supporters - nice people but too naive

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:31 AM

then come people in reality, who see the two parties are a charade

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“whatcha mean, jordan?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“He was chosen on purpose by oligarchy inc. just for that reason.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“OH YEP, SO TRUE”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:32 AM

I don't know, Ross. Shit was pretty fucked for FDR too, and look what he did.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:32 AM

and it's not like Lincoln had it easy either

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“I don't think one guy could solve a system, as broken as ours.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

It's embarrassing, now. He was elected the first time when I was in Honduras. I faxed in my vote (that wasn't counted - long story). I remember standing around with a med brigade watching the Inaugural address and crying.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“fer sure ross”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:33 AM

the day after he as elected I said was the proudest day in the country's history.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:33 AM

when beyonce sang at his inaugural I cried

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

Lincoln and FDR did not have it easy, but they're exceptions. And we were lucky, as a nation, to have had them.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Good point.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

Seth and Robin, i think I agree with you both.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

I would not want Obama's job.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:34 AM

I think the truth is that anyone who tries to make a real difference is threatened with assassination

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“While Obama and Clinton are far from perfect, the truth is anyway who gets in there, and I mean anyone, will have to play in an awful system where the rules are completely rigged”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

He starts his day by hearing who wants to kill him...EVERY DAY.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“is it not worse now?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:34 AM

JFK was going to put us back on the gold standard

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

Oh, jeez. JFK. We lost a good one there.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:34 AM

RFK was going to raise the standard of living for the poor

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:35 AM

so true

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:35 AM

but maybe we're telling ourselves that to make ourselves feel better

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

Robin - I don't doubt it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

me, neither.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:35 AM

Of course you could - you could go on national television and tell the truth about whta's happening

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:35 AM

what ghandi did was impossible too

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

Well, no one would believe you.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“look what he did in 2008 with the stroke of a pen for the wall street and yet, he just can't bring himself to stroke his pen for social issues.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

We are our own worst enemies.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i had the thought obama may have been threatened or his family, when he became the 'new obama'”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:36 AM

I think it requires becoming a martyr

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

We feed media, media feeds us.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“With the balance of powers there are great limits to what one man can do. Our govt is so corrupt that I don't think Washington, Jefferson or Lincoln combined could fix it”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:36 AM

any objective reasonable analysis would conclude we need to start over

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

Yes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

But HOW?

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:36 AM

I'm not saying it would be easy

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:37 AM

But someone could go Teddy Roosevelt on our ass

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“It's hard to find a good leader who wants to lead, and who cann't be brought down, by others who want their position.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

Unfortunately history teaches us that shit has to get REAL bad before we do better. :(

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

Teddy Roosevelt was not who you think he was.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i really think we need to trash the entire political system, and the bankers.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

He was a very bad man.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:37 AM

frankly, I think the intentional dissemination of misleading information should be made illegal, Fox News and political advertisemenbts...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

But that's another Tawk.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Lincoln and FDR didn't have a 24 hour news cycle to deal with, a Congress bought and paid for by Big Business and billionaires, a public brainwashed by propaganda networks, etc.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:37 AM

no question

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:38 AM

we certainly lack the capacity for self correction at the moment

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:38 AM

just look how we're handling climate change

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

Our Supreme Court hurts my feelings.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

Yes - climate change is a great example.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:38 AM

exactly

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

And we exacerbate climate change because our politics suck.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“The system itself needs to be completely fixed. The Supreme Court is no longer a referee but rather a one-sided player”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“one way or another it is going to get real bad, no doubt”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:39 AM

our lack of response to climate change is irrefutable of our dysfunctionality overtaking our functionality

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:39 AM

Honestly, Jordan, it's hard not to put the blame on EVERYONE. We have our priorities wrong.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:39 AM

We believe in money.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“"not" handling it”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:40 AM

Well, good news and bad news is that we're just responding to the social constructs we're being presented.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:40 AM

how do we know that, Seth?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:40 AM

I guess the 2016 campaign is already ramping up. Hillary might run. She's SO an insider.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“Obama is the darling of the establishment.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“definitely”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

Right?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

WTF?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

This sucks!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:41 AM

I mean, Clinton signed the Telecommunications Act, repealed Glass Steagal, signed NAFTA, repealed welfare...I mean - he was just as bad as W

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

I don't want to play any more!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:41 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“And just think what things would be like if McCain or Romney got in. The military would be double the size it is now. We would almost definitely be in another war. Education, medicare/Medicaid, social security, unemployment would be slashed if no”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:41 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“not eliminated”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

I'd take my ball and go home, but I'm not really free to leave. Expatriation is arduous and expensive.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:41 AM

I think change os going to come outside the government, ghandi style

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Agreed Rebecca...although what's the alternative Ted Cruz, Rand Paul?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:42 AM

so it doesn't matter who's president

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:42 AM

but people's most fundamental needs are in serious jepoardy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

Jordan, I think people are trying.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“So can real change happen while he is sitting press?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

yes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:42 AM

the more desperate people get, the moe inevitable change becomes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

We are no longer assured of clean air, water, or soil.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#1 only public funding of all candidates, no more buying politicians and laws”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

Yes - but it's easy to oppress people who don't believe in anything.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

We're a majorly dysfunctional society.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:43 AM

and sadly, our leaders can't stop themselves from being a bad end to themselves as well as to us

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:43 AM

agreed and good start

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

Hear, hear, Seth!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:43 AM

agreed

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

Yes - and DORNES.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

DRONES

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:44 AM

I actually think he's a good man

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

Carter IS a good man. that's why none of his initiatives were successful.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#2 Supreme Court Just. are for only 8 yr terms nominated by other judges only...no more stacking the court and lifetime appts.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:44 AM

Carter, I mean. I also believe in Warren, Sanders and Brown.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

They benefitted the wrong people.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#3 term limits for all politicians: no one can serve longer than the President...politician was supposed to be a short stop not free parking”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:45 AM

who else is good in DC?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

Look how freaking successful he's been since he got OUT of the political machine?

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“Carter has distanced himself from Clinton & Obama...hmmmm.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“its like they are pushing us to do something about it. daring us.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:45 AM

I mean, what is encouraging is that the solutions are not hard to find.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Thx...#4 Politicians cannot be exempt from any laws they impose on the American people”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:45 AM

everything Seth says is pretty clearly a solution

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

That's true.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

However, we're brainwashed.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:46 AM

I think we have to look at behavior from a more micro level

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“No more lifetime pensions, no more getting paid while congress is shutdown, no more fully-paid healthcare”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:46 AM

I thinki people would be less likely to become corrupt if the stakes weren't so high

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:46 AM

I'm not sure we'd ever collectively agree as masses that we should do those things. EX workers who are anti-union.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:46 AM

like, what if a politician knoiew they'd never have to worry about money for themselves or their family

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“well, if the politicians get LESS won't they want even more bribery?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:47 AM

might that change their behavior?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

Example: workers who are anti-union, I mean.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:47 AM

and I don't mean make them obscenely wealthy - I just mean totally comfortable

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

They are totally comfortable, Jordan.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Thx JB”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“A couple of these fixes and most of these problems would vanish overnight”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

These people are the 1%.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

They don't need our money.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:48 AM

I know - but we are all products of a system that has us scurrying after security from the moment we're bron

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:48 AM

born

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“There are loads of traumatized and stressed out people and the establishment wants to treat them with a pill instead of herb.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:48 AM

By that logic, the living wage allotment is absolutely the way to go.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#5 if you work for a govt agency you can never be compensated or work for anyone you regulated”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“A pill instead of a scientifically proven non-toxic plant that can be inhaled or eaten...hmmm.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“greed needs excess, tho, jordan”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#6 No more rigging, aka gerrymandering, districts. If the population increases or dec. by a certain amount an independent commission decides any redistricting”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:48 AM

Not for politicians, but for all of us.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:49 AM

Make sure EVERYONE is comfortable.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:49 AM

I feel like we need to improve humanity, or else we don't deserve to survive clkimate change

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:49 AM

Word.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“You cannot control your own election”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“The shitty economy means that politicians will be less likely of giving up there power, and money for fear of being poor. But if they passed more policies helping the poor then they wouldn't have that fear.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“our money is siphoned off us regularly by various nefarious means. =D”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:49 AM

comfortable like a Cobb house, free healthcare, healthy food, in exchange for working 40 hours a week in a job that is actually productive to our society

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

the theory is able to pay median rent and expenses and food. If you don't have a job or make enough at your job, you are buoyed by the allottment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:50 AM

I feel like it's OK for the achievers among us to accumulate great wealth and afford things most of us can't even dream of

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“how comfortable?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

Sure.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

Whatever.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:50 AM

but not before the most basic needs of everyone are met

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

Yes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:51 AM

And, i am sort of in favor of a maximum wage cap.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#7 referendums by the American people to overcome the ridiculous procedure of passing Amendments now”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“well, sorta, jordan. what about the kids now? they deserveit.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“sounds wonderful, jordan”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:51 AM

I'm cool with that, Becca

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:51 AM

And if we shift our value system a little bit, then conspicuous consumption will be anathema.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:52 AM

I think the idea of wealth accumulation takes on a very different and healthier dynamic in a caring environment

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“do we need money? how about barter, trade give and take? sharing?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Well said JB”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

So people who DO earn a bazillion dollars a year will have to keep it real or be seen as disgusting.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

Caring is sharing!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:52 AM

there's no possible reason to earn a billion dollars a year.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:53 AM

(Robin - it's all fake! It's a game!)

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:53 AM

if you earn a billion dollars in a year, keep $10 million and get 14 high schools named after you

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:53 AM

exactly

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:53 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Most forms of entertainment are free. Why can't we do the same with food, water. Things we need to live.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:53 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#8 no more Electoral College, simple majority vote wins. We're no longer in the 1700's where only land holding white males could vote”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:53 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“but how did they get it? that wat gets me”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:53 AM

there's different ways to incentivize and reward achievment than endless financial accumulation

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:54 AM

Well, that's not part of the game that they see. They're competing. It's like football - the players don't know how long it took you to save for those tickets!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:54 AM

Yes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:54 AM

well, emotional maturity is called for. that's the real trick.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“not a game when people suffer and cantget their basic needs met”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:54 AM

Man, i wanted to throw up listening to NPR today!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:54 AM

why

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:55 AM

Seth - I hope you're writing a book

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:55 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“They love to get things and places named after them don't they.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:55 AM

There was a story about National Gurdsmen getting all butt-hurt that the US wants to reallocate the Apache attack copters to "active duty areas"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:55 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“how about integrity of production? reasonable prices. decent wage?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:55 AM

poor guardsmen

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:55 AM

i dopn't get that either

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:55 AM

And I was just like, Oh my god! A fuscking pissing contest over machines the KILL PEOPLE!!!!!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#9 no more giving taxpayer dollars to companies to "relocate,", hire people, etc. No more taxpayer money for sports teams. If you can afford the team, it's your responsibility otherwise the city/county should own the team for putting up the money”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

No, I want to be the guy who shoots third graders! ME! Me!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“#10 No more private FED. The FED should be owned by the govt no a group of banks which use it as a printing press for themelves”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

Let ME shoot up that wedding!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:56 AM

These people are not well mentally

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

I think not.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“The fact that the monsters are trying to kill the USPS, still has my head spinning.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

But they're no sicker than people who are playing the money game.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:56 AM

it's the infrastructure we could use to launch a million green energy projects, too

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:57 AM

the post office I mean

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:57 AM

elizabeth warren is trying to use the post office to put those abusive check cashing businesses out to npasture

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

Unfortunately, it is a game - like RISK or Monopoly - to people. There appears to be cognitive dissonance regarding the fact the PEOPLE are involved.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“If there is one American institution that should flourish, it is the USPS.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:57 AM

I know

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:58 AM

Obama could do so much

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:58 AM

Ooooh, Senator Warren! That's such a great idea!

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:58 AM

maybe they'd overthrow him or something, but not without rocking the system

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:58 AM

yeah - do you know what a scam those check cashing places are?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:58 AM

I don't know, Jordan.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:59 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“So much could happen within the next 24 hours with just a stroke of that fucking pen!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:59 AM

and it's al;l in conjunction with the big banks to screw over poor people

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

I don't really think we can fix it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

It's too broken.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

Politics, economics - maybe even the environment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 12:59 AM

so should we just disconnect and focus on our own lives?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

No, and yes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

We can't fix the big system.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

But I think we can do better.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

We can do something ELSE.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

so the bus is headed over the cliff, and we should put on our headphones?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“Unfortunately, that pen only seems to work for very powerful corporate interest.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

That's not what I said.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

I said get off the danged bus.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

no I know

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

I was just being wiseass

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

I'm ready to jump off the bus

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:01 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

It's still moving really fast, though

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

so this might hurt a bit

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:01 AM

I just don't think we can get enough people to agree on what we need to do.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“yes. what you got in mind?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“The McCutcheon ruling was the final nail in the coffin of democracy, Citizens United was bad enough”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“There's always hope to change the world, but It's hard to get hope and use it as fuel to do something constructive.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

maybe we need some cataclysm

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:02 AM

I think, reasonably, the best we can do right now is be civilly disobedient and find people we can get along with - and then try to get along with them in a separate system.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“modified marxism perhaps? i am leaning that way.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

I'm in

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

that's not a strength of human natue

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“just set up our own society and communities with an eye toward equality, sharing and compassion for all”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:03 AM

Oh, Robin - we don't DO before it's too late! We're HUMANS.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

fire-breathing

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“so we all have to do the same thing?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:03 AM

I don't know, though. It makes me so nervous.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

on an unrelatd note, we need to do a creative group writing again

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“we HAVE the cataclysm. the climate. nice to take action before it is too late.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:03 AM

My last few experiments with trying to cooperatively live with people did not work.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“We need someone to ride in on a zombie T-rex and lead a revolt.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“well, some of us have it... the impetus”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Yes”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:04 AM

(And yes - the creative writing group was so fun - once I took a fucking chill pill!)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

that made me happy, Seth

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Our country has become more and more Fascist, businesses running the govt, for the past 30 years. Ironically that drives people to want Marxism which is just as bad. Two opposite sides of a very bad coin”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“Yes Rebecca Civil disobedience has become mandatory in these times.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“nervous how?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Yeah definetly”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“sweet idea, jordan”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

so yeah - it's a trick to hold on to hope in the face of unyielding douchebaggery

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:05 AM

I think a key of cooperative living is some kind of accord. It doesn't work with people who don't generally share your values.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I have hope though, being surrounded by people like you”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“how well was it discussed and planned?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

I'm holding out hope that everyone would share those values if they got emotionally healthy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:05 AM

And SO MUCH attention to communication and relationships.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:06 AM

In looking at commune attempts in the 60s and 70s, most had communication breakdowns and petty human tension - jealousies, etc.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I'm glad to see there are rational minds still left that haven't been corrupted by propaganda”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

I'm betting that our survival as a species is tied to our emotional wellness

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:06 AM

So, I think the key to success is catching the shit before it metastasizes!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:07 AM

You're probably right, Jordan.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“kelly and i are working on such a project. would be nice if others get involved. more ideas.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:07 AM

I likethose ideas, Robin!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:07 AM

BUT,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:07 AM

I must admit,

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

On a small scale, kibbutzes in Israel are a very successful model

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:08 AM

I'm having a little bit of a hard time with my CSA work share arrangement.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

until they get too big

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“What's the project called?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“no name really. as of yet”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“just gettin the philosophy down”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“What's it about?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:08 AM

Only because I feel awkward, not because it's not working.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“self sustaining communities, no govt. no money.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:08 AM

I go, i work, i have a nice time on the farm with people who are my friends, and I get a lot of food.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

that sounds great

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:09 AM

CSA is a Consumer-Supported Agriculture arrangement.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:09 AM

You pay in and then get your shares over the course of the season.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“pretty much have to be rather small”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:09 AM

Ross, I like that thought!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

so where are the problems emerging, Becca?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“what is dsa?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“csa”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:09 AM

It could also be dealt with by NOT insulating.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

right - we should account for what could go wrong, and then take action to make sure it doesn't go wrong!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

The problems are that we're not exactly clear on the arrangement, we're just going on feeling about what's fair.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i wish kelly was here. he could expllain it much better than i”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Small communities usually make a tribe mentality where you distrust people from another tribe. That could be dealt with through social media though.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

And I sort of feel over-compensated!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“ok. nice.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

fairness is a very powerful force in people's feeling OK

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

Yes, it is!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

it is hugely important

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

So is expectation!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Thanks.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

Expectation creates disappointment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Yup. Keep it open”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“it is hoped that the internet could still be a thing”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

dissatisfaction with the present creates the need for expectation

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

If we don't directly work with expectations from the very beginning, people are going to struggle.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

Expectation is very subtle.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

yes I agree

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“yep. thats why we are focusing on the philosophy first.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

It's even just your visualization or interpretation.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:12 AM

And when it's not met, you might be disappointed and therefore feel unsatisfied.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

fairness and expectation - think about how much those ideas impact our world

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:12 AM

Which is okay - but you have to process that or it becomes a problem. It can become endemic.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“got to be open to change”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

it seems like one thing that is always needed is to stay on top of things e know are liley to become a problem

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

I think expectation is a large reason that Americns are so restless right now.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

agreed

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

They expect thing to be better than they are. But they aren't. So they feel like failures. Or they feel duped.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

cool!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

And that leads to withdrawal and self-medication.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

yer so right

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

its sad

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“everyone has an equal say in "operation". kelly! where the heck are you?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

i wish we could eliminate the unnecessary suffering from people's lives

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“passing out leaflets, i think. getting ready for his event at christopher lake.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

I mean, life has necessary suffering I understand.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

Well, we should expect that, but there's SO MUCH that feels not awesome about our lives that we can't even connect to the not being represented thing by now...we need to go watch TV and eat junk food and feel better for awhile.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

But so much isn't necessary

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

I agree.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“what?? expecting to be represent4ed?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

And when I think about what it's like for families in Syria right now...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

I, just...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:15 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

people have a right to expect more.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“sad? ITS EFFING OUTRAGEOUS! =D”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

You should be able to expect that you will live in peace and see your children grow up.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“My friend would always go to the lonely people in the lunchroom and talk to them. Need more people like that.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

Although, when you think about it, where does that expectation come from?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“YEP ROSS”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:16 AM

Well, you got me. :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

not the no drones bit

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

good answer

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:16 AM

It's from a notion of human rights and decency.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:16 AM

Which is, in all fairness, a human construct.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

yep - I beloieve morality is logical

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“they sure do, like no drones, forinstance”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

I'll buy that.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

all right my friends - good spirited debate tonight!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

I enjoyed it as always!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“the bill of rights? equality, fairness?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

have a great nite everyone

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

You guys are great!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

and see ya next week

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

Thanks, Jordan!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

Have a good week!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

love you Robin!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

Thanks Becca!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“yes it is”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

Bye, everyone! Thanks so much! I am soothed by your ideas!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“as always”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

l8r ross!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“luv yer tawks”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“you too g'nite”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“bye rebecca.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“= D love you too jordan”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from ross dittman

“Need sleep and food. Later. Great talk.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“nite. ross”

Forum · 166

Forum· 166 comments

26 visitors

Tawkers AdminApr 21, 2014, 6:32 PM

Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 22, 2014, 1:18 AM

America has been an Oligarchy since the Telecommunications Act was passed in the late nineties (if not earlier). I guess now it is just official. How sad that the entire planet was looking up to America as the greatest Democracy and it has become...

Robin MaynardApr 22, 2014, 9:33 PM

it has become the greatest terrorist organization, biggest plunderer of the planet, and most arrogant usurper of the rights of people around the world. =D is that about right?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:15 AM★ Spotlighted

hiya jordan and rebecca

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:15 AM★ Spotlighted

howdy

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:16 AM★ Spotlighted

ummm no. i didn't know there was one.

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:17 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes, the monsters continue to kill us softly.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:17 AM★ Spotlighted

i have seen things to that effect. we do not matter.

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:18 AM★ Spotlighted

so how do we fight back and get the rest of the planet to respect us again...is it possible?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:18 AM★ Spotlighted

it is good to have proof to back you up

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:20 AM★ Spotlighted

what do you mean, rebecca?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:20 AM★ Spotlighted

true jordan

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:21 AM★ Spotlighted

dang! thats crazy

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:22 AM★ Spotlighted

especially now, when, apparently, scientists can be bought.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:22 AM★ Spotlighted

or threatened

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:23 AM★ Spotlighted

yes. which ones were bought?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:24 AM★ Spotlighted

"question everything"

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 12:24 AM★ Spotlighted

Why?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:25 AM

for sure

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:25 AM★ Spotlighted

one would hope that would go without saying

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:26 AM★ Spotlighted

well,, that sucks, jordan

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:27 AM★ Spotlighted

it is outrageous, especially in the circumstances we find ourselves in these days.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:28 AM★ Spotlighted

i think it may be possible to get to hell in the proverbial handbasket quicker by voting a "certain way"

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:29 AM★ Spotlighted

it is! me too rebecca

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:29 AM★ Spotlighted

he fooled uys

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:30 AM

i thought that too rebecca

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:30 AM★ Spotlighted

He was chosen on purpose by oligarchy inc. just for that reason.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:30 AM★ Spotlighted

whatcha mean, jordan?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:31 AM★ Spotlighted

OH YEP, SO TRUE

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 12:31 AM★ Spotlighted

I don't think one guy could solve a system, as broken as ours.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:31 AM★ Spotlighted

fer sure ross

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 12:32 AM★ Spotlighted

Good point.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:32 AM★ Spotlighted

is it not worse now?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:33 AM★ Spotlighted

While Obama and Clinton are far from perfect, the truth is anyway who gets in there, and I mean anyone, will have to play in an awful system where the rules are completely rigged

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:33 AM★ Spotlighted

look what he did in 2008 with the stroke of a pen for the wall street and yet, he just can't bring himself to stroke his pen for social issues.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:34 AM★ Spotlighted

i had the thought obama may have been threatened or his family, when he became the 'new obama'

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:34 AM★ Spotlighted

With the balance of powers there are great limits to what one man can do. Our govt is so corrupt that I don't think Washington, Jefferson or Lincoln combined could fix it

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:34 AM

oh yep

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 12:34 AM★ Spotlighted

It's hard to find a good leader who wants to lead, and who cann't be brought down, by others who want their position.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:35 AM★ Spotlighted

i really think we need to trash the entire political system, and the bankers.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:35 AM

agreed, seth

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:36 AM

would anyone believe it?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:36 AM

no one can't be brought down.

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:36 AM★ Spotlighted

Lincoln and FDR didn't have a 24 hour news cycle to deal with, a Congress bought and paid for by Big Business and billionaires, a public brainwashed by propaganda networks, etc.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:37 AM

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:37 AM★ Spotlighted

The system itself needs to be completely fixed. The Supreme Court is no longer a referee but rather a one-sided player

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:37 AM★ Spotlighted

one way or another it is going to get real bad, no doubt

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:37 AM

Agreed JB

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:38 AM★ Spotlighted

"not" handling it

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:39 AM★ Spotlighted

definitely

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:39 AM★ Spotlighted

Obama is the darling of the establishment.

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:40 AM★ Spotlighted

And just think what things would be like if McCain or Romney got in. The military would be double the size it is now. We would almost definitely be in another war. Education, medicare/Medicaid, social security, unemployment would be slashed if no

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:40 AM★ Spotlighted

not eliminated

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:40 AM★ Spotlighted

So can real change happen while he is sitting press?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:40 AM

we need new social constructs too

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:40 AM★ Spotlighted

Agreed Rebecca...although what's the alternative Ted Cruz, Rand Paul?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:41 AM

sucks is quite the understatement

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:41 AM

A couple of amendments must be signed to change things....

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:41 AM★ Spotlighted

#1 only public funding of all candidates, no more buying politicians and laws

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:42 AM

outside, yes

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:42 AM

model a better alternative society?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:42 AM★ Spotlighted

#2 Supreme Court Just. are for only 8 yr terms nominated by other judges only...no more stacking the court and lifetime appts.

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:43 AM★ Spotlighted

Carter has distanced himself from Clinton & Obama...hmmmm.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:43 AM★ Spotlighted

its like they are pushing us to do something about it. daring us.

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:43 AM★ Spotlighted

#3 term limits for all politicians: no one can serve longer than the President...politician was supposed to be a short stop not free parking

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:44 AM★ Spotlighted

Thx...#4 Politicians cannot be exempt from any laws they impose on the American people

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:44 AM

perhaps the ultimate in outrageousness. drones

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:44 AM★ Spotlighted

No more lifetime pensions, no more getting paid while congress is shutdown, no more fully-paid healthcare

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:45 AM★ Spotlighted

well, if the politicians get LESS won't they want even more bribery?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:45 AM★ Spotlighted

Thx JB

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:46 AM★ Spotlighted

A couple of these fixes and most of these problems would vanish overnight

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:46 AM★ Spotlighted

There are loads of traumatized and stressed out people and the establishment wants to treat them with a pill instead of herb.

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:46 AM★ Spotlighted

#5 if you work for a govt agency you can never be compensated or work for anyone you regulated

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

A pill instead of a scientifically proven non-toxic plant that can be inhaled or eaten...hmmm.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

greed needs excess, tho, jordan

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

#6 No more rigging, aka gerrymandering, districts. If the population increases or dec. by a certain amount an independent commission decides any redistricting

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

You cannot control your own election

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

The shitty economy means that politicians will be less likely of giving up there power, and money for fear of being poor. But if they passed more policies helping the poor then they wouldn't have that fear.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:48 AM★ Spotlighted

our money is siphoned off us regularly by various nefarious means. =D

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:49 AM★ Spotlighted

how comfortable?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:49 AM★ Spotlighted

#7 referendums by the American people to overcome the ridiculous procedure of passing Amendments now

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:49 AM★ Spotlighted

well, sorta, jordan. what about the kids now? they deserveit.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:50 AM★ Spotlighted

sounds wonderful, jordan

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:50 AM

Referendums shouldn't just be at the state level

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:51 AM★ Spotlighted

Well said JB

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:51 AM★ Spotlighted

do we need money? how about barter, trade give and take? sharing?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:52 AM★ Spotlighted

#8 no more Electoral College, simple majority vote wins. We're no longer in the 1700's where only land holding white males could vote

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 12:52 AM★ Spotlighted

Most forms of entertainment are free. Why can't we do the same with food, water. Things we need to live.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:52 AM★ Spotlighted

but how did they get it? that wat gets me

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:53 AM★ Spotlighted

not a game when people suffer and cantget their basic needs met

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:53 AM★ Spotlighted

They love to get things and places named after them don't they.

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:54 AM★ Spotlighted

#9 no more giving taxpayer dollars to companies to "relocate,", hire people, etc. No more taxpayer money for sports teams. If you can afford the team, it's your responsibility otherwise the city/county should own the team for putting up the money

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:54 AM★ Spotlighted

how about integrity of production? reasonable prices. decent wage?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:54 AM

what was it rebecca?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:55 AM★ Spotlighted

#10 No more private FED. The FED should be owned by the govt no a group of banks which use it as a printing press for themelves

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:55 AM

Lol I think I already wrote one here JB

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:55 AM★ Spotlighted

The fact that the monsters are trying to kill the USPS, still has my head spinning.

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:56 AM★ Spotlighted

If there is one American institution that should flourish, it is the USPS.

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 12:56 AM

True John

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:57 AM★ Spotlighted

So much could happen within the next 24 hours with just a stroke of that fucking pen!

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:58 AM★ Spotlighted

Unfortunately, that pen only seems to work for very powerful corporate interest.

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 12:59 AM

So how do we get that pen to work for the people?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 12:59 AM

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:00 AM★ Spotlighted

yes. what you got in mind?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 1:00 AM★ Spotlighted

The McCutcheon ruling was the final nail in the coffin of democracy, Citizens United was bad enough

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:00 AM★ Spotlighted

There's always hope to change the world, but It's hard to get hope and use it as fuel to do something constructive.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:00 AM★ Spotlighted

modified marxism perhaps? i am leaning that way.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:01 AM★ Spotlighted

just set up our own society and communities with an eye toward equality, sharing and compassion for all

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:01 AM★ Spotlighted

so we all have to do the same thing?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:02 AM★ Spotlighted

we HAVE the cataclysm. the climate. nice to take action before it is too late.

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:02 AM★ Spotlighted

We need someone to ride in on a zombie T-rex and lead a revolt.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

well, some of us have it... the impetus

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

Our country has become more and more Fascist, businesses running the govt, for the past 30 years. Ironically that drives people to want Marxism which is just as bad. Two opposite sides of a very bad coin

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

nervous how?

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

Yeah definetly

Johnathonfall thethirdApr 23, 2014, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes Rebecca Civil disobedience has become mandatory in these times.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

sweet idea, jordan

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:04 AM★ Spotlighted

how well was it discussed and planned?

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 1:04 AM★ Spotlighted

I have hope though, being surrounded by people like you

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 1:05 AM★ Spotlighted

I'm glad to see there are rational minds still left that haven't been corrupted by propaganda

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:05 AM★ Spotlighted

kelly and i are working on such a project. would be nice if others get involved. more ideas.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:05 AM

for sure rebecca

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:06 AM

sweet

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:06 AM★ Spotlighted

What's the project called?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:06 AM★ Spotlighted

no name really. as of yet

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:06 AM★ Spotlighted

just gettin the philosophy down

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:06 AM★ Spotlighted

What's it about?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:07 AM★ Spotlighted

self sustaining communities, no govt. no money.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:07 AM

yeah!

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:07 AM

but

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:08 AM★ Spotlighted

pretty much have to be rather small

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:08 AM★ Spotlighted

what is dsa?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:08 AM★ Spotlighted

csa

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:08 AM★ Spotlighted

i wish kelly was here. he could expllain it much better than i

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Small communities usually make a tribe mentality where you distrust people from another tribe. That could be dealt with through social media though.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

ok. nice.

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks.

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Yup. Keep it open

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

it is hoped that the internet could still be a thing

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:10 AM★ Spotlighted

yep. thats why we are focusing on the philosophy first.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:11 AM

yes

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:11 AM★ Spotlighted

got to be open to change

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:12 AM★ Spotlighted

everyone has an equal say in "operation". kelly! where the heck are you?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:13 AM★ Spotlighted

passing out leaflets, i think. getting ready for his event at christopher lake.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:13 AM★ Spotlighted

what?? expecting to be represent4ed?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:14 AM★ Spotlighted

sad? ITS EFFING OUTRAGEOUS! =D

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:14 AM★ Spotlighted

My friend would always go to the lonely people in the lunchroom and talk to them. Need more people like that.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:15 AM★ Spotlighted

YEP ROSS

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:15 AM★ Spotlighted

they sure do, like no drones, forinstance

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:16 AM★ Spotlighted

the bill of rights? equality, fairness?

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:17 AM★ Spotlighted

yes it is

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:17 AM★ Spotlighted

as always

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:17 AM★ Spotlighted

luv yer tawks

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

you too g'nite

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

bye rebecca.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

= D love you too jordan

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

Need sleep and food. Later. Great talk.

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

nite. ross

Seth HochmanApr 23, 2014, 1:19 AM

Good Tawk....goodnight all!

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:19 AM

i'm glad you are rebecca

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:19 AM

nite seth

ross dittmanApr 23, 2014, 1:19 AM

good game, good game, good game, good game, good game

Robin MaynardApr 23, 2014, 1:20 AM

so, ross, if yer still here, you mite want to talk to kelly about his ideas.

Rodrigo A. BartelsSep 3, 2017, 11:49 PM

HellO!

Rodrigo A. BartelsSep 4, 2017, 2:46 AM

Hello!