As a culture, we tend to associate BDSM with danger, violence, and fear. BDSM practitioners, we assume, are psychologically damaged, like 50 Shades' Christian Grey. But the science says otherwise. And there is data to support that many of us are incorporating aspects of BDSM into our sex lives. Why is this form of recreational sex play so misunderstood? Kayt Sukel and Mélanie Berliet unravel the myths surrounding BDSM and its advocates.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM
Hello!
Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM
Hello hello!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM
Thanks for joining us for DEMYSTIFYING BDSM.
Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM
Yes thank you indeed!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM
We'll be talking about the myths, the science and the culture of bondage, dominance, sadism and masochism.
Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM
When it comes to BDSM myths, I think it's pretty impossible not to mention 50 Shades of Grey
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM
I hated that book.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM
I have to put that out there.
Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM
perhaps we start with how that little book misled people. (I couldn't get past page 30)
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM
I know it got all the suburban soccer Moms hot and bothered but it perpetuated a lot of the myths.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM
And I shouldn't even make fun of the soccer Moms because 50 million people read that thing.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM
But I actually wrote about some of the myths for HuffPo a while back: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kayt-sukel/bdsm_b_1554310.html
Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM
Yeah, in a way it did us all a favor by brining BDSM to light. And yet, it perpetuated the myth that BDSM practitioners have psychological problems
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM
And I think one of the most dangerous ones is that BDSM is some kind of psychological problem.
Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM
right. why do you think people assume that?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM
When, for a lot of people (and more people than you think), it's just a healthy extension of natural sexuality.
Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM
totally. We're talking about safe, sane, consensual practices!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM
I think for a couple reasons. One: shows like Law and Order SVU.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM
People don't seem to understand there is a real difference between serious sexual sadism, like criminal sexual sadism--and doing some role playing.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM
And the other is that people don't understand how diverse the BDSM world is.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM
For the HuffPo piece, I talked to a guy who ran a BDSM night. He told me for some BDSM is a feather, for others it is the whole chicken.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM
Like normal sexuality, you see a lot of different behaviors wrapped up in one label.
Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM
right. when in fact, people who practice BDSM are often MORE communicative and take MORE time to establish rules/boundaries than their "vanilla sex" counterparts
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM
Exactly! The motto is "safe, sane and consensual."
Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM
I think a lot of people are engaging in BDSM without even realizing that their behavior qualifies as such
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM
While "sane" may vary from couple to couple, the consensual is the most important part.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM
It's a really big umbrella.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM
HUGE umbrella.
Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM
According to the 2005 Durex Global Sex Survey, 36 percent of U.S. adults have had sex using masks, blindfolds, or other forms of bondage (compared to 20 percent worldwide). And back in 1953, a study conducted by the Kinsey Institute reported that 55%
Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM
... of females and 50% of males had experienced an erotic response to being bitten.
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
and yet these things remain stigmatized
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM
An Australian study found that about 2% of the population participated in BDSM activities.
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
that seems like a low number!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM
But I'd be curious to see how they defined it!
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
but again, depends on the definition of BDSM used
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
right
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM
Because, you're right, totally depends on how you define it.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM
Heck, even a smack on the butt during foreplay might count as BDSM for some.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM
But let's talk a little about your experience with BDSM.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM
Mel wrote a great piece for Pacific Standard: http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/truth-bdsm-america-may-lot-kinkier-think-73054/
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM
I'm dying to ask you: was it just like shopping with a personal shopper at Bloomingdale's?
Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM
Of course. I have to say that the number one most surprising takeaway from my tutorial with a professional dominatrix was just how attentive she was. How careful she was to "check in" regularly
Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM
to assess how I was responding to everything she did. monitoring my body temperature, color, expressions, etc.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM
I think most professional dom's are like that. They talk about themselves as therapists. They really care about their clients and their well-being.
Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM
Yes! she considers herself a therapist
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM
I would imagine that a partner would be doing the same thing.
Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM
and she said that the number one misconception is that BDSM necessarily leads to sex
Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM
this particular dominatrix did not sleep with her clients
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM
I'd be curious to see how many did.
Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM
she sometimes peed through a funnel into their mouths. but she did not have intercourse with them
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM
I know some pros give the dom experience...but I bet a lot don't end up having sex.
Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM
in fact, sometimes she'd encourage them to masturbate but then forbid them from finishing
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM
(And by pro, I mean prostitute...)
Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM
Oh, got it.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM
Forbid them? That just seems mean!
Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM
hehe. Dominant!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM
But it's interesting...in your piece, you talk about why a lot of accomplished people like being submissive.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM
And I get it!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
I was having a conversation with a few single Mommy friends a few months ago and we were talking about getting rough in bed.
Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM
yes! me too! i didn't realize why i was leaning towards playing the submissive role until she told me that
Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM
i am a pretty "in control" type by day
Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM
so I guess i need to unleash!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
A lot of the women were like, "I'm in control of every aspect of my life. I want someone else to dominate me in bed!"
Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM
and were their husbands willing to play the dom role?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
Most of them were single...but they appreciated dating guys who were willing to take on that role.
Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM
I wonder how it works for power couples, when both may want to be submissive
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
They didn't want to be beaten. They didn't want to be demoralized.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM
But they didn't mind having a guy willing to take a little more control.
Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM
but they wanted a spanking (or five)!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM
That's the great thing about BDSM, though, right?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM
You talk, you communicate.
Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM
yeah. i completely relate to that
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM
And that's what a lot of studies have shown. Couples who participate in BDSM have more intimacy because they are able to converse about really hard topics.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM
They can share their needs openly--and talk about what works for them.
Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM
Right. it's a healthy mindset!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
That led to better sex...and better overall relationship satisfaction.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
But it raises the question: how do you broach the subject?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
"Honey, would you mind flogging me later after we get the kids to bed?"
Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM
There was that study that showed that BDSM practitioners scored high on measure of mental health compared to others
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
Time and time again, the studies totally fly in the face with so-called common wisdom and stereotypes.
Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM
here it is: http://www.livescience.com/34832-bdsm-healthy-psychology.html
Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM
What factors/events in a person's life, past or present, might make someone reluctant to explore BDSM?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM
I think a lot more people are exploring BDSM, they just may not realize it.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM
But you have to start with a lack of education.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
If you are raised to believe sex is bad/dirty in general, it's hard enough to consider a blowjob let alone a latex catsuit.
Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM
or psychological problems. maybe psychological problems are more likely to correlate with NOT practicing BDSM....than with practicing it.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
I don't know if we can make that leap.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
Correlation doesn't equal causality.
Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM
that is a leap. just a whim
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
And "normal" sexuality is an even bigger umbrella than BDSM.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
But I think we, as a society, are kind of trained to not talk about sex.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM
We aren't supposed to be open...hell, I still know some women who feel like they aren't supposed to like sex!
Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM
what does qualify as "abnormal" sexuality?
Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM
for real? have these women orgasmed before?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM
"Abnormal" sexuality depends on who you ask.
Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM
is there no generally accepted scientific definition?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM
But in my mind, it's something that directly impacts the health (physical or psychological) of you or your partner.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM
You have to understand, it wasn't all that long ago that homosexuality was considered a mental disorder.
Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM
VERY GOOD POINT
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM
So I'd say anything that can permanently hurt a person or their partner falls on the "abnormal" side of things.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM
And I'm not talking about a good spanking!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM
I'm talking about non-consensual pain stuff, rape, stuff that messes with your head, etc.
Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM
the damaging stuff.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM
More on that sexual sadism stuff--the kind of acts where a person has to really fuck up another person in order to get off.
Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM
did you see this VF piece about the oldest known dominatrix? http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/01/Catherine-robbe-grillet-interview?mbid=social_facebook_post2_culture_link
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM
I had not!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM
But I love that there is one!
Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM
I believe she's still practicing
Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM
at 83!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM
Good for her!
Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM
which is so cool to me
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM
I find it interesting that so many doms really do liken themselves to therapists.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM
They believe they are helping their clients open up, relieve stress, express themselves.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM
Which, when you think about it, is exactly what you would want a good therapist to do.
Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM
the dominatrix I met with called herself a shamatrix
Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM
because she is as much into healing as she is into BDSM
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM
That's the other thing about defining "abnormal" -- so many of us are raised with a lot of shame when it comes to sex. We aren't supposed to do it, to like it, to explore.
Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM
shamanatrix, I meant
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM
Having some bad ass give you permission to act out your fantasies must be so liberating.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM
Shamanatrix! I love it!
Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM
As a mom, how are you approaching sex ed?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM
So far, very clinicially.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM
Clinically, rather.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM
My kids are pretty young so I stick to the biology.
Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM
does the kids' school have a good program?
Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM
right
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM
Alas, we live in Texas. We teach kids about guns and intelligent design, not about their bodies.
Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM
I barely got any sex ed in school. or at home, truthfully
Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM
ah!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM
Sex ed will be my domain, I reckon.
Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM
good thing you're around to clear things up!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM
I hope to do things a lot like the Quaker school discussed in this NY Times mag article, Teaching Good Sex: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/magazine/teaching-good-sex.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM
And part of that will be discussing desires...and how everyone has different ones and that's okay.
Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM
I do get the therapist / dominatrix comparison. I read a great book called I Am Not Myself These Days about a transvestite whose roommate was a homosexual dom for a living and he reported the same thing
Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM
I definitely remember that article!
Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM
so good
Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM
not too many progressive programs like that around, unfortunately
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM
The Unitarian Church has a great program.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM
It's called Our Whole Lives: http://www.uua.org/re/owl/
Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM
Hmmm. I'll check it out
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM
It's pretty funny when churches are providing the best stuff out there.
Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM
I read that Angelina Jolie said something about BDSM that really surprised me
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM
Do tell!
Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM
She was once so open about dabbling in knife and blood play during sex. But then said ”Since I’ve been with Brad, there’s no longer a place for … S&M in my life.”
Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM
why would that be, I wonder?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM
I remember that comment.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM
It could be as simple as the fact that her and Brad's fantasies go elsewhere.
Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM
Good point.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM
The comment annoyed me a bit because it seemed to imply that she was unhappy in past relationships and that's why she went for BDSM.
Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM
It kind of made me sad
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM
Obviously, any relationship where one partner is unable to communicate/act on desires is sad.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM
It's not the way to be.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM
But BDSM can be part of a healthy, whole and happy relationship.
Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM
it didn't sit well with me because I'd like to think those two are soul mates (sight) and that their sex life is rich and loving and open
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM
Well, sex can be rich and loving and open without a flogger.
Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM
word
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM
And I think that's the most important point of all of this: we all have different sexual needs, different sexual desires.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM
"Normal" sexuality is a huge range of behaviors.
Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM
but for someone who admittedly experimented with those things, it seems odd that she would suddenly change
Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM
but I suppose we all evolve
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM
In fact, we might be better to just skip use of the word "normal" altogether.
Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM
yeah. the word "normal" is problematic
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM
Well, experimenting can teach you as much about what you don't like/want as what you do like/want.
Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM
this is true.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM
The Dom you talked with won't do sex--and she won't anally penetrate.
Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM
correct
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM
People have limits. They may test them but they have limits.
Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM
right. and the process of finding those limits varies, I imagine.
Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM
i'm sure some people know instinctively, while others have to tease their personal boundaries to find them
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM
Here's another thing about the Angelina story: wasn't she admittedly on drugs and unhealthy back in those relationships?
Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM
That could be. I didn't think about that
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM
I mean, if you are in an unhealthy place, you may end up in a position where you are doing things not because you want to but because you have to/aren't thinking them through/etc.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM
And once again, we're back to safe, sane and consensual!
Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM
Here's another interesting thing: those that prefer spontaneity versus something more orchestrated
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM
Well, as my friend told me once, it takes all day to set up some of those rope contraptions.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM
I would imagine that would HAVE to be orchestrated.
Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM
Right! some don't want to bother with the song and dance of preparation—because it's work to them that's not worth it.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM
Clean-up is a bitch.
Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM
and de-costuming!
Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM
some costumes are crazy elaborate
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM
I have a friend who has always been intrigued about liquid latex. But she has never tried it because she is worried about how hard it would be to get off your skin.
Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM
I had never worn a corset until my BDSM tutorial
Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM
those things are annoying to get on and off
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM
They also bite into your ribs.
Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM
I've never even heard of liquid latex!
Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM
what is liquid latex?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM
http://www.liquidlatex.com/
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM
It's basically a body paint.
Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM
oh
Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM
that functions like clothing?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM
It can.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM
Some of the kinds can be peeled off you.
Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM
can you leave the house in it or would you be guilty of public indecency?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM
I've only seen people at clubs and on Halloween wearing it out.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM
But it can function like clothing.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM
It can also be peeled off. But some report that it isn't as easy to peel off as it should be.
Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM
the dom i met with had a thing about walking around with parts of her costume peaking out in public
Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM
like her crop
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM
You get little bits stuck on you.
Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM
she liked to get looks from intrigued strangers, she told me
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM
I wonder if she gets curious people talking and then making appointments that way!
Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM
oh, that's an interesting theory. it could be her way of advertising.
Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM
but i think mostly it was fun for her to play with people, from what i gathered
Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM
she truly LOVED to dress up
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM
Well, I think a lot of women do that in different ways.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM
A short skirt, a revealing blouse. It can be fun to show bits and pieces of your sexuality in some forums.
Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM
true. you don't need a crop to bat your eyelashes coquettishly
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM
Nor to bend over in a suggestive manner.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM
But I bet you'd get even more eye-popping if you had a crop at hand!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM
What were some of the comments you received on the BDSM piee?
Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM
Oh, the bend and snap from Legally Blonde!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM
piece?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM
I got a lot of "Thank you for writing this" kind of comments on the HuffPo article. People were happy I was debunking some of the old myths about BDSM.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM
Though, I also got a few comments calling me a slut. As usual.
Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM
I received a lot of positive feedback. I think it was refreshing for a lot of readers to be reassured that their inclinations weren't a sign of psychological problems
Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM
YES!
Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM
I get a lot of slut shaming stuff too
Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM
Oh, the internet!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
I'd be curious to see how BDSM is received in countries/cultures were sex isn't as taboo.
Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM
Any specific countries/cultures in mind?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
I'd imagine it would be taken as just another something on the menu.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
I don't have any specific cultures in mind. Some that are more open about sexuality are only more open about male sexuality.
Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM
right.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
I know, when I lived in Europe, sex shops were all over the place.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM
The German women (and men) were a lot more open about talking toys and props.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM
But I don't know that they'd see BDSM as something "different."
Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM
interesting.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM
Unless you got to the more extreme stuff, like choking, cutting, etc.
Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM
how did you respond to those who call you a slut for writing about BDSM?
Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM
it's so frustrating to me that that happens
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM
I don't respond to anyone calling me a slut anymore.
Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM
good
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM
I'm an almost-40 mother of two. If people don't realize I've had and am having sex, they probably need to re-think things.
Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM
it's hard to combat that kind of ignorance
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM
That it is.
Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM
Well I suppose we might as well conclude on that note!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM
Although, I did get one unexpected response from the HuffPo piece. A guy really into the subculture who hated 50 Shades because it was making BDSM more mainstream.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM
He wanted it to stay in the shadows.
Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM
interesting. why was that? did he elaborate?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM
Thanks to everyone for listening in!
Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM
Yes thank you!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM
He just thought it was something that should just be for a few--the real BDSM'ers, not the dabblers.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM
So we'll be on next week--talking Barbie and body image.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM
We hope to see you there!
Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM
Yes! Please do join us. Thank you Kayt for all the wisdom, as always:)
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM
Thank you for the very same!