Jordan Birnbaum

Host

Howard Zinn's "A People's History..." Chapter 1

Oct 15, 2013·89 visitors

Adam Kizner

Cohost

Stage· 199 messages

Oct 15, 2013

Howard Zinn's "A People's History Of The United States" is the most important book on American history ever written. And if you don't believe me, just ask Good Will Hunting. So on this Columbus Day, Adam and I are going to summarize Chapter 1, which is about Christopher Columbus, our celebrated genocidal maniac war criminal "discoverer." Happy Columbus Day, Everybody!!!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

Mr. Kiz, I presume?

Adam Kizner · 1:00 AM

Yes Glad to be with you. Happy Columbus Day.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

Happy Hitler Day, I mean Columbus Day!

Adam Kizner · 1:00 AM

Not too far off...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

actually, you could agrue columbus was worse, but lets not start there yet.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

quick hello to the forum -all my faves are here - have missed you all

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Oh, squee! I'm so happy to be back online! I've missed you's guys!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

OK -so we're here tonight to discuss chapter 1 of A People's History Of The United States by Howard Zinn

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

so before we begin, for context, how would you define Zinn's purpose in writing this book?

Adam Kizner · 1:03 AM

Howard Zinn makes the point that history is written from the records of the conquerors. There tends to be an outright omission of, or downplaying of atrocities committed by our founders.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

so he makes the effort to uncover documentation from the "losers" of history -the poor, the natives, the women...

Adam Kizner · 1:04 AM

Yes, Zinn has set out to tell US history from the standpoint of the oppressed.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

And it it's a very disturbing read

Adam Kizner · 1:05 AM

Yes. I had always thought of myself as a skeptic, but as it related to Columbus I merely thought that he had set out to reach Asia, but ended up in the Americas.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“this is better than just reading the book we get the info and live commentary. score. p.s. yes I missed your tawks Jordan :)”

Adam Kizner · 1:05 AM

He had “discovered” an inhabited land, when in reality the indigenous Americans had discovered him. I thought Columbus was luckier than our textbooks led us to believe.

Adam Kizner · 1:05 AM

I had no idea as to the extent of the genocide committed against the indigenous peoples of the Bahamas and Hispaniola by Columbus in an attempt to acquire gold. I was saddened and sickened by the ruthlessness of an apparent national hero of ours.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

Yes -it is shocking to read about the atrocities he commited, especially when you consider the mythology we were taught growing up. So what are some of the classic myths about Columbus that are taught in US schools?

Adam Kizner · 1:07 AM

We are taught believe that Columbus was a brave seamen, excellent navigator and discoverer.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

yes, a visionary who had the briliance and courage to assertt the world was round

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“who cares ,Seth...theres a tawk going on”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“One more outburst like that young lady and I will banish you to a Tea Party Tawk”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

not that seth!

Adam Kizner · 1:08 AM

In reality, Columbus was probably a great sailor. But it ends there.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

although even that is in question, right?

Adam Kizner · 1:09 AM

Well, I do think most accounts do speak to his sailing ability, but he clearly had a smaller (although round) vision of the world.

Adam Kizner · 1:10 AM

Columbus had convinced the Spanish monarchy to finance his voyage to Asia. He was attempting to reach China and India by crossing the Atlantic so as to avoid the overland route, which at that time was controlled by the Turks.

Adam Kizner · 1:10 AM

He was permitted to keep 10% of the profits from the bounty he collected there with the rest going to the throne. Additionally, he would be granted governorship over new-found lands, and would be given the title of Admiral of the Ocean Sea.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

OK -so before we start to get into the nitty gritty details, do you think it's worth citing some of the sources that Zinn references as a source of this somewhat shocking info?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

wasn't there a priest who went there and witnessed firsthand the atrocities?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

and wrote them in a journal?

Adam Kizner · 1:11 AM

Zinn makes reference to Columbus' own journal, and yes, a priest who went along on the voyage.

Adam Kizner · 1:12 AM

And who documented the atrocities.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

OK - So the first part of the story, that he was doing this as an uincentive for profit in a deal with Spain, that's not so bad, right?

Adam Kizner · 1:13 AM

I suppose that is the purpose of colonization, yes.

Adam Kizner · 1:13 AM

He thought he was finding an oversea route to the Far East. His mission there was to bring back gold, silk and spices, and share in said profits.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

lol - OK -so he sets off on this journey - does the journey go as planned?

Adam Kizner · 1:14 AM

he thought the world was much smaller than it is, and “discovered” the New World, about a quarter of the way to where Asia would have been. Indigenous Americans are called Indians, because North America was thought to be India.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:15 AM

Now, he didn't even discover literal America though, right? Didn't he actually hit a small island cluster?

Adam Kizner · 1:15 AM

Yes, basically the Bahamas, Hispaniola and Cuba.

Adam Kizner · 1:16 AM

After realizing that he hadn’t reached Asia, he came back and convinced the kingdom of Spain that he had reached Asia, and that several Chinese Islands (actually the Bahamas/Cuba/Hispaniola) were ripe with gold.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

OK - what about his character prior to his touching land - there's an incredible story about his violating a promise?

Adam Kizner · 1:17 AM

IV. This is indicative of the scoundrel that Columbus was. When Columbus and his crew of 39 aboard three ships set sail, the first man to sight land was supposed to get a yearly pension of 10,000 maravedis (Spanish currency) for life.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

That's like a sales commission out of GlenGary GlenRoss

Adam Kizner · 1:18 AM

On the morning of October 12, 1492, 33 days after leaving from the Canary Islands, a sailor named Rodrigo cried out that he spied land—an island in the Bahamas. Columbus claimed that he had seen lights from this land mass the night before.

Adam Kizner · 1:18 AM

Rodrigo was scammed out of his pension.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

So Columbus reneged on his incentive bonus payment and collected it for himself.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

that's the kind of dude we're dealing with, and he hasn't even committed any genocide yet.

Adam Kizner · 1:19 AM

Correct. See the type of person we are celebrating?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“douchebag”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Rick: Genocide IS genocide. Let's pick on Columbus today and pick on some more motherfuckers tomorrow. There's plenty to go around.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

OK -this is where the story starts to get REALLY bad.

Adam Kizner · 1:19 AM

There are plenty of genocidal maniacs, but not many with holidays.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

excellent point. so, Columbus has just landed around Cuba, and he sees the Native people on the beach coming to meet him. What are his first thoughts, as recorded in his journal?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Screwed his workers, exploited the natives, and was intolerant of different groups...was Columbus the first Tea Partier”

Adam Kizner · 1:21 AM

The Arawak, who were the native Caribbean Islanders, were remarkable, as noted by Columbus’ in his journal, for their willingness to share and their mild temperament. Columbus thought of this as naïveté, for they weren’t possessive.

Adam Kizner · 1:21 AM

And were easily duped. The Spaniards were also amazed (startled) at how well the “Indian” women were treated. The Arawak were thought to be primitive for their supposed lack of commerce, lack of work animals and no use of iron ore.

Adam Kizner · 1:22 AM

They were kind and generous people in need of "progress"

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:23 AM

so as he is processing this information, he is led to the thought of (I'm paraphrasing) "how easily we can enslave these people and make them do what we want."

Adam Kizner · 1:23 AM

Well, the first task was to get gold, as he had advertised to the Kingdom of Spain.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:23 AM

That idea comes directly from his own journal.

Adam Kizner · 1:23 AM

The Arawak were given the impossible task of mining for gold, as Columbus had promised to the kingdom. Unsuccessful Arawak gold miners (and they were all unsuccessful) were killed gruesomely. Mostly bleeding to death after body parts were cut off.

Adam Kizner · 1:24 AM

After determining that there wasn’t any gold on Hispaniola the ships were loaded with Arawak Indians to be sold as slaves back in Spain.

Adam Kizner · 1:24 AM

Yes, from Columbus' own account.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

yes -so he was under tremendous pressure to provide gold to the king of Spain because he had made false promises. He was delusional about the resources he had found.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:25 AM

and set himself up with impossible expectations with the Spanish royalty. And madness then ensued.

Adam Kizner · 1:25 AM

Yes, so he exacted revenge on the Arawak for his own over selling to the kingdom.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“yes because those DBs can only see generous, kind, and loving as "uncivilized" if that's uncivilized and murdering for money is civilized, I'd rather be uncivilized! grr! that's the part that makes me so mad”

Adam Kizner · 1:26 AM

Any Arawak resistance was futile, as the Spaniards had armor, weapons and horses. Arawak prisoners were hanged or burned. Furthermore, it turns out the Arawak didn’t make great slaves as many didn’t survive the trip back to Europe.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:26 AM

it is such a tragedy that communities that find peace and harmony with nature are doomed to be slaughtered.

Adam Kizner · 1:26 AM

and those that did couldn’t survive in the climate. The Arawak were then forced to work their own land, with the men mining for non-existant gold and the women working the fields planting cassava plants. The Arawak were worked to death.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

so he would give the Arawak daily quotas of gold they had to mine, right?

Adam Kizner · 1:27 AM

Yes. It was all futile.

Adam Kizner · 1:27 AM

No gold meant forced labor.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

and when they inevitably failed, he would cut off their hands?

Adam Kizner · 1:28 AM

Many committed suicide and even killed their own children to prevent them from a life of forced labor.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

thinking that would motivate them?

Adam Kizner · 1:28 AM

Yes. They bled to death for not finding gold.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

OK - in what other ways were the Arawak tortured or killed, and what is left of their tribe?

Adam Kizner · 1:29 AM

In a matter of years, the islands of Hispaniola and Cuba had been virtually depopulated. By some estimates, as many as 8 million natives perished between 1494 and 1508. Conservative estimates are closer to 1 million.

Adam Kizner · 1:29 AM

Either way it is staggering, especially given the methodical task of execution by sword or burning. It was a ravaging genocide perpetrated against a peaceful population whose only fault was not having the gold Columbus had advertised.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

We need to take a moment to allow that to sink in

Adam Kizner · 1:30 AM

As you mentioned earlier, Hitler at least had much more efficient technology. This was sheer brutality.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

Try to imagine the most harrowing scens from Schindler's List. Now make that way worse. That's Columbus.

Adam Kizner · 1:30 AM

Our hero.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:31 AM

now, once the floodgates were open, there was terrible wave of discoverers, many of whom I wrote glowig reports about in elementary school.

Adam Kizner · 1:31 AM

The actions of Columbus laid the groundwork for the treatment of the Indigenous South, Central and North Americans.

Adam Kizner · 1:32 AM

Cortes in Mexico, Pizarro in Peru, and the English settlers from Virginia to Massachusetts repeated the policy of lying to and then exploiting and then massacring the Indians.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:32 AM

who are some of the famous names -Cortez? Balboa?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:32 AM

I don't remember my elementary school "discoverers"

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Liz Williams

“Columbus Day begins the celebration of mythology in this season. It follows with Thanksgiving.”

Adam Kizner · 1:33 AM

It is shocking.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

fair point, but I think changing the holiday would allow us to maintain anything good and eradicate the bad.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

but we'll get there in a moment.

Adam Kizner · 1:34 AM

We are celebrating a genocidal madman, who upon failing to enrich himself and his kingdom, as promised, took his revenge upon the natives. It is celebrated as “human progress” but it was nothing more than colonization through massacre.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

so Adam, do you have any shocking stats or quotes about the ultimate impact on all native populations in the area?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“To this day, Central and Latin America are almost entirely Catholic”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

that's not unrelated, that's for sure

Adam Kizner · 1:35 AM

Most no longer exist in North America.

Adam Kizner · 1:35 AM

Columbus (and Spain) were Catholic, yes. And this was seen as enlightening the natives to some extent.

Adam Kizner · 1:36 AM

It was still a gold mining expedition primarily.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“and as Zinn himself has said “There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.””

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

bautifuuly said, Lucy and Howard Zinn!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

So -this leadfs us to the broader point already being discussed in the forum - what the hell are we doing teaching this nonsense in school and celebrating this psychopathic monster?

Adam Kizner · 1:36 AM

Yes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Rick, I think part of the way forward is to stop idolizing these dead douchebags and then we can stop buying into the mythology wound around them by the life DBs.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I don't idolize anyone - and I think very few people do. Although I'm not known for over estimating the intelligence of the American public.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“That's why we sould pick on him - we should call bullshit on this guy AND all the rest.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“@Rebecca Exactly! Accepting longstanding injustice, is still accepting injustice and screw that!”

Adam Kizner · 1:38 AM

It is strange, that this is a US holiday, especially given the fact that Columbus never actually made his way to the "mainland." That's ignoring the genocide even.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“I think a lot of people we glorify in history are less than "hero-worthy"”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

And I know that somehow there is a segment of the Italian population that takes tremendous pride in Columbus, but I have to imagine they don't know what this guy actually did.

Adam Kizner · 1:39 AM

Whack-jobs.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

well, that's another way to say it

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“to be honest,do people really care about Columbus or the fact that its a day off work/school?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

Look -I am definitely not advocating ditching the holiday. re-directing it is more like it.

Adam Kizner · 1:40 AM

Americans will celebrate any day off. With beer and a trip to the beach/mall.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“No doubt Lucy...but let's remember nearly every American kid is told this story when asked why do we get off school tomorrow?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

So how long are we going to keep perpetrating a lie?

Adam Kizner · 1:40 AM

Exactly. We should be honest with ourselves or we are just perpetuating a scam.

Adam Kizner · 1:41 AM

Zinn's book should be required reading. Certainly for any historian.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

plus, in a broader sense, we are celebrating murder - that is not healthy for us

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

★ Spotlighted from Liz Williams

“I like Thanksgiving, but not the myth of the pilgrims and Indians.”

Adam Kizner · 1:41 AM

I am not comfortable with it. But, history is written by the conquerers.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

the source and result of Thanksgiving represent perfect irony

Adam Kizner · 1:42 AM

We just have to remove our heroes from the story and just have a holiday.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

I like to think of us as intellectual conquerers.

Adam Kizner · 1:43 AM

Columbus laid the groundwork for the English settlers.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

why not a day celebrating native americans? or honoring them (better word)?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Liz Williams

“We should re-interpret history starting with what we teach children so that we face the future with our eyes open.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

I mean, doesn't that feel healthier?

Adam Kizner · 1:43 AM

Exactly. We are doomed to repeat history if we gloss over it.

Adam Kizner · 1:44 AM

Native Americans are not the demographic politicians fight for.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

exactly - we are burying one of the most important learning moments in human history

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

the lost opportunity for insight and realization and empathy is priceless

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Liz Williams

“Myth making equals chest thumping, instead of thoughtful learning from experience.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

not all of us are celebrating

Adam Kizner · 1:45 AM

Yes, and generations of kids continue to go through life with blinders on.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“no one fights for the natives.... except the natives. lol. sad but true”

Adam Kizner · 1:46 AM

Recently, there has been some momentum with regards to Native American sensitivities.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

Rachel - as a native American - are you ouitraged by this? Terribly saddened? All of the above?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

i am going to teach my imaginary kid to speak about genocide and Columbus and to remind him to correct the teacher even if it means visiting the principle

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

OMG Rick I already love your kid!

Adam Kizner · 1:46 AM

President Obama recently paid lip-service in support of changing the name of the Washington Redskins to some other inoffensive name. The owner, Dan Snyder seems to have dug in his heals and thinks the name is a badge of honor and won’t be changed.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“yeah all of the above. I try not to think about it because when I do it really angers and saddens me all at once because it was just ridiculous and pointlessly cruel and it's so sick and wrong”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“those were just people... outside sitting in the sun and then this guy comes along..”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

never had a chance

Adam Kizner · 1:48 AM

As Zinn puts it: So, Columbus and his successors were not coming into an empty wilderness, but into a world in which in some places was as densely populated as Europe itself, where the culture was complex, where human relations were more egalitarian

Adam Kizner · 1:48 AM

than in Europe, and where the relations among men, women, children, and nature were more beautifully worked out than perhaps any place in the world.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

it is breattakingly sad to imagiune that world being lost

Adam Kizner · 1:49 AM

Almost an end-of world society, wiped off the map (and the history books). For gold.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

so you brought up the Redskins -I can't believe this name hasn't been changed already.

Adam Kizner · 1:50 AM

Let me be clear, the Washington Redskins is as offensive as naming a team the Arizona Wetbacks, or the San Francisco Queers, or the New York Kikes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

lol - that is exactly right

Adam Kizner · 1:50 AM

There does seem to be some momentum building here, and with the team doing as poorly as they are, this offseason may be the best opportunity to do so.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

I bet the yankees would less fans if they renamed themselves that

Adam Kizner · 1:51 AM

Yes, except a few die-hards.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

but isn't it kind of an extension of the Columbus idea - the perpetuation of shameful behavior from our past?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“i feel like there have been several attempts for that name to change and it never has... it's like ok you want to show your racism proudly, we get that but.. could you not?”

Adam Kizner · 1:52 AM

Yes, which is why we have to acknowledge our past. Warts and all.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“they should scrap football...stoopid game anyways :-)”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

lol Lucy - given concussions that may not be so crazy in the future...

Adam Kizner · 1:52 AM

Out of our Nation's capitol no less.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I guess the best part of winning battles was you got to put your spin on what actually happened...as it's said in the History of the World, "It's good to be the King!"”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

that raises a great last point for the Tawk tonight:

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

if this is the truth about Columbus, what does that tell you about all the other history you "know?"

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“But...could you not? LOL, Rachel. I feel that way about the Confederate flag wavers down South. Really, guys? Walk upright already.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

totally agree

Adam Kizner · 1:54 AM

We have 24 more chapters to discuss...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

yes -if my soul can take it!

Adam Kizner · 1:54 AM

You will notice the same themes, however.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

because this knowledge feels like a burden. once you know it, it's hard to stop thinking about it.

Adam Kizner · 1:55 AM

Just keep spreading the word. Teach to those who will listen.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:55 AM

Well, to that end, Adam and I are going to try to do this for all 25 chapters of the book.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

Apparently there's a better chance we'll follow through if we put that out there.

Adam Kizner · 1:56 AM

Right on. I am ready.

Adam Kizner · 1:56 AM

Thank you all for listening.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Because I know that the larger discussion of the evolution of cultural symbols won't penetrate, so maybe just a little dragging behind a truck or a mock-lynching might get through...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

these are all tangents of the same subject. Can we EVOLVE, people?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

you know, take the good, leave the bad, be better...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Good stuff guys...Happy Natives Day?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

Perfect. Happy Natives Day!

Adam Kizner · 1:58 AM

Yes, Happy Natives Day would be a better approach.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“I cannot evolve Jordan I am of an "uncivilized, naive" nature”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

you're already more evolved than most!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

and the holiday tradition should be "feeling shame."

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

at a bar-b-que.

Adam Kizner · 2:00 AM

Yeah. Prices should double for one day to pay reparations.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

we could probably have a lot of fun thinking up stuff for native's day

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Liz Williams

“What government? Do we have a government?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

well, liz, perhaps you can join my Tawk tomorrow at 2:30 -I'm tawking shutdown with the founder of UniuteBlue. (shameless plug)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“LOL, Jordan. LOLOLOLOL! Feeling shame...at a bar-b-que.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

Boy, did I miss you!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“I think we'd even take getting something other than swamp land to "settle" on... keep the money lol”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

OK my friends - it was a wonderful night

Adam Kizner · 2:03 AM

Thanking you.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

And believe it or not, on Wednesday night, I have Paul Krassner, founder of the Yippies with Abby Hoffman

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

That was the OWS of the 60's, so it's going to be great.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

good night, and let's all remember that we are not alone!

Forum · 203

Forum· 203 comments

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Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 12:54 AM

So many Tawks I've lost track, and have developed a stress reaction in my index fingers from typing. I'm suing you, Jordanski.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 12:56 AM

evening one and all! :-)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 12:58 AM★ Spotlighted

Oh, squee! I'm so happy to be back online! I've missed you's guys!

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 12:59 AM

missed ya too,Rebecca!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 12:59 AM

Mwah, Lucy!

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 12:59 AM

Hi all :) Happy to make a tawk after a week or so.. I have no sense of time lately :p can't wait for the tawk

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 12:59 AM

group hug me thinks!!! :-)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:00 AM

I agree Lucy :)

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:01 AM

hello there lovely JB and the lovely Adam!! :-)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:02 AM

As someone with some Native blood in me I have never celebrated columbus day

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:03 AM

Or any white man holiday?

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:03 AM

*sends big hugs and sloppy wet kisses to JB* missed ya too big guy!!

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:03 AM

NOW can get started?

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

this is better than just reading the book we get the info and live commentary. score. p.s. yes I missed your tawks Jordan :)

Myles MaherOct 15, 2013, 1:03 AM

Hello gentlemen of the forum. I'm drinking cheap brandy in a plastic cup in your honor.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:04 AM

Jordan stop presuming :)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:04 AM

the accurate version? ;)

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:04 AM

eat my belly button lint,Seth! mohaha!

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:05 AM

haha omg Lucy! lol!

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:05 AM

Too much too eat my dear

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:05 AM

Speaking of scores it's Indy 3 San Diego 0

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:06 AM★ Spotlighted

who cares ,Seth...theres a tawk going on

Myles MaherOct 15, 2013, 1:06 AM

Nassau has great snorkeling

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:07 AM★ Spotlighted

One more outburst like that young lady and I will banish you to a Tea Party Tawk

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:07 AM

Oops they don't Tawk!

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:08 AM

mmmm an american invades a country,grabs all the good stuff and kills everyone....sounds vaguely familiar

Myles MaherOct 15, 2013, 1:08 AM

I heard he was a real player.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:08 AM

The name Dumbya mean anything to you?

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:09 AM

was he cousin to Dumbo?

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:09 AM

Pardon me, Lucy - you of the Raj persuasion.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:09 AM

Lol, don't insult Dumbo like that

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:09 AM

you are pardoned,Rick.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:09 AM

and again.. all over money (gold/money = power) age old tale :/

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:10 AM

Well it took about twenty days until Columbus hit land, and apparently his frustrated seamen were trying to have a mutiny

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:10 AM

sorry Seth. its the ears

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:10 AM

frustrated seaman? :-O

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:10 AM

Isn't it also a myth that people thought that the world was round? I mean, that was proven by Aristotle.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:10 AM

The good news was they could swim :)

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:11 AM

i so didnt read that as aristotle just then lol. sorry

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:11 AM

Why pick on only Columbus? You've got your choice of lots of good Christian white men.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:11 AM

Good point, Rick.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:11 AM

However, not all of them have federal holidays.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:11 AM

"Admiral of the Ocean Sea" That Empire sure thought highly of itself lol

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:12 AM

are you saying that Pocahontas wasnt real either? :-O

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:12 AM

Lol, couldn't we call it Reagan day...there aren't enough things named after him lol

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:12 AM

do you really need one day to know just how poo you really are?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:12 AM

JB: Bartolome de las Casas. I've had to translate some of his letters in college. Gruesome stuff.

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:13 AM

Holiday, shmoliday. Dead is dead.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:13 AM

I'm surprised the natives didn't overwhelm Columbus and his crew with sheer numbers and kill them

Michael HauptmanOct 15, 2013, 1:13 AM

this gem has been all over the facebook today http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:13 AM

I should say, genocide is genocide.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:13 AM

LOL, Lucy. Pocahontas was real, but she certainly didn't look like the Disney version.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:14 AM

phew thats good to know,rebecca

Michael HauptmanOct 15, 2013, 1:14 AM

Happy Bartolome Day everyone!!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:15 AM★ Spotlighted

Rick: Genocide IS genocide. Let's pick on Columbus today and pick on some more motherfuckers tomorrow. There's plenty to go around.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:15 AM

@Seth the Natives thought of war and fighting as a last resort.. silly them. in the end that's what hurt them, their compassion.. and the other side's ruthlessness

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:15 AM

I'm with you, Michael!

Michael HauptmanOct 15, 2013, 1:15 AM

@rebecca- right on :)

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:15 AM

ans who do we have? sir walter bloody rally!! all he did was find the potoato

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:15 AM

didn't know that "Indian" piece of trivia.. interesting

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:16 AM

well it wasnt in season i guess

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:16 AM

yeah theres enough days in the year

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:17 AM

I'd rather work on today's motherfuckers than yesterday's.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:17 AM

rick,todays mofo's are here BECAUSE of yesterdays mofo's

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:18 AM

it's true mofo's breed more mofo's

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:18 AM

We can take this back to australopithecus. So what.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:18 AM

True story: Columbus called the natives Indians because he was actually looking for a faster way to sail to India

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

douchebag

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:19 AM

scammed out of his pension? swings and round abouts spring to mind.....

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:19 AM★ Spotlighted

Rick, I think part of the way forward is to stop idolizing these dead douchebags and then we can stop buying into the mythology wound around them by the life DBs.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:20 AM

*sits backs with feet up on table and reads....*

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:20 AM★ Spotlighted

Screwed his workers, exploited the natives, and was intolerant of different groups...was Columbus the first Tea Partier

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:20 AM★ Spotlighted

I don't idolize anyone - and I think very few people do. Although I'm not known for over estimating the intelligence of the American public.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:21 AM

"the...cat...sat on the...mat.." by jove i think ive got it!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:21 AM

LIVE DBs, I mean. I see your point - Colombus is dead, so what? Well, Colombus is dead and we can create a Big Brother-esque myth around him that people can rally behind.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:21 AM★ Spotlighted

That's why we sould pick on him - we should call bullshit on this guy AND all the rest.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:22 AM★ Spotlighted

@Rebecca Exactly! Accepting longstanding injustice, is still accepting injustice and screw that!

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:22 AM

love how the american people will call Columbus all the names under the sun BUT wont hear a bad word about Obama (and yes i know not all americans are like that - im generalizing)

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:22 AM

Notice the banks were closed...they've a lot in common with Columbus--must be a solidarity thing

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:23 AM

LOL, Seth.

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:23 AM

We have built our attitudes about America and patriotism on a mythology that seems more important than facts. Whether we glorify Columbus, talk about Washington and the cherry tree, act as though Manifest Destiny is a good thing.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:23 AM

must be a bank holiday,Seth

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:23 AM

We want to think well of ourselves and our history.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:24 AM

banks are just worshipping one of their own

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:24 AM

EXACTLY, Liz!

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:24 AM★ Spotlighted

yes because those DBs can only see generous, kind, and loving as "uncivilized" if that's uncivilized and murdering for money is civilized, I'd rather be uncivilized! grr! that's the part that makes me so mad

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:25 AM

pirates of the carribean

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:25 AM

So why are we still celebrating him and have a holiday named after him...other than the fact that Americans need more holidays

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:25 AM

yep psychopathic right there! AWFUL.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:26 AM

ya know,everytime is DB i think its about me!! lol

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:26 AM

I don't care about Columbus, he can rot. And so can all those who replicated his behavior in the U.S. as it expanded West.

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:27 AM

We went from celebrating the discovery of the place to celebrating the person. Not the same thing.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:27 AM

gotta fill out the calendar,Seth. gotta let the fat cats have some time off from making all that money and sitting on their big behinds all day

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:28 AM

oh yeah...notice how we are slowly going back to using gold as "currency"? paper is slowy becoming worthless

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:29 AM

Ironically, Columbus spread religion, Catholicism, to the new world

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:29 AM

yeah and look how that turned out,Seth

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:29 AM

@Lucy I was just thinking about that, we need to get these people like this out of power or when our paper money fails what is our fate? I know slippery slope but not like it hasn't been done before as columbus per example

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:29 AM

What does that tell you, Seth?

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:29 AM

Goyim choleria.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:29 AM

rachel,i know of some great videos you should watch about that. i'll DM to you in FB

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:30 AM

I agree Lucy, but surprising that the natives didn't go back to their original religion after they saw the evilness of the Spaniards

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:30 AM

Seth, Isabella required Columbus to bring priests.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:30 AM

so sickening and sad :( columbus is in hell for sure... or some place equally painful

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:30 AM

Seth, they're brainwashed, beaten over the head with the goodness of the Catholic God. See: Africa for a modern reference.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:31 AM

he's not on Americas Got talent,is he rachel?

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:31 AM

Slipping back to their ow beliefs probably led to death, so they had to at least act Catholic.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:31 AM

@ Lucy - You're DB, but not THAT kind of DB. :)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:32 AM

@Seth yes just like Rebecca said they did awful things and brainwashed children and took children from their homes and forced them into Christianity it happened to my grandma she was forced into a catholic girls school w other native girls very young

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:32 AM

(cont) and stripped of her original identity

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:32 AM★ Spotlighted

Columbus Day begins the celebration of mythology in this season. It follows with Thanksgiving.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

To this day, Central and Latin America are almost entirely Catholic

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

and as Zinn himself has said “There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.”

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

I like Thanksgiving, but not the myth of the pilgrims and Indians.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:34 AM

so by the time they got here they were already desensitized to the torture and murder of these people.. that makes a lot of sense.. and already accustom to manipulating their generosity to trick them

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:35 AM

Why didn't more historians speak up about the evilness of Columbus and his men, when people were trying to polish this turd?

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:35 AM

money,Seth..simple as.

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:35 AM

I visited Dominica and saw the Caribe there. They still look like the early drawings of those documenting Columbus' voyages.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:35 AM★ Spotlighted

I think a lot of people we glorify in history are less than "hero-worthy"

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:36 AM

plus America needs this Columbus is God myth to keep the "American Dream" alive? Even though the dream is paved with bloodshed then and now

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:36 AM

True Rachel but this guy take the cake

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:36 AM

Seth, yes, Central and South America are still predominantly Catholic. And they seem to this day to think that white people are better than they are. I had so many conversations with Hondurans who referred themselves as poor "indios" (a racial slur)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:37 AM

not educated and beautiful like I was. That's an awkward conversation.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:38 AM

Nothing worse than seeing when a group of people internalize negative views about themselves because of their oppressors... the saddest thing

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:38 AM★ Spotlighted

to be honest,do people really care about Columbus or the fact that its a day off work/school?

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:39 AM

we don't get it off of school here anymore in Minnesota. but we used to when I was younger

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:39 AM★ Spotlighted

No doubt Lucy...but let's remember nearly every American kid is told this story when asked why do we get off school tomorrow?

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:40 AM

I know Jordan and I were fed this laundered, line of bull in elementary school

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:40 AM

and that is the saddest part,Set. kids should be told the truth not indoctrinate with untruths and complete shite!

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:40 AM

I think that some Italian were greatly looked down upon and grabbed Columbus as something to celebrate for ethnic pride. It was ill conceived, but an attempt to find a place at the American table.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:40 AM

Forget money laundering...this is history laundering!

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:42 AM★ Spotlighted

We should re-interpret history starting with what we teach children so that we face the future with our eyes open.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:43 AM

Well they call it His-story for a reason

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:43 AM

@Lucy - that's why my kid will not be in public school.

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:44 AM★ Spotlighted

Myth making equals chest thumping, instead of thoughtful learning from experience.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:44 AM

Seth, have you read "Lies My Teacher Told Me"?

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:45 AM

“Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.” George Santayana

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:45 AM

i'm still waiting for the history show with greg proops and lee camp.....they said they would hehe

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:45 AM★ Spotlighted

no one fights for the natives.... except the natives. lol. sad but true

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:46 AM

The more I look at history, the more I think Darwin was right

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:46 AM

Well, I AM (was) the teacher, and the prescribed curriculum just didn't sit well with my conscience, and I had to go visit the principal. We're out of that hot mess.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:46 AM★ Spotlighted

yeah all of the above. I try not to think about it because when I do it really angers and saddens me all at once because it was just ridiculous and pointlessly cruel and it's so sick and wrong

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:46 AM

The more I look at history, the more I think Darwin was right

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:47 AM★ Spotlighted

those were just people... outside sitting in the sun and then this guy comes along..

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:48 AM

I was taught about all this VERY young like age 4 or 5 so I have had decades to come to terms but it is still very hard when you sit down and think about the entire history of the people .. very hard :/

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:48 AM

At first the natives saw the Spaniards were Gods in their religion since they looked so powerful and foreign....little did they know they were actually devils

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:48 AM

again signs that MONEY should NEVER be worshipped

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:49 AM

Mann wrote that in 1491 there were huge cities in America. Besides actual murders, most deaths were by disease.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:49 AM★ Spotlighted

I guess the best part of winning battles was you got to put your spin on what actually happened...as it's said in the History of the World, "It's good to be the King!"

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:50 AM

It's true, Liz.

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:50 AM

But we shouldn't romanticize the native peoples either. They had every right to their land and their lives, but they were just people, not ideal people.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

i feel like there have been several attempts for that name to change and it never has... it's like ok you want to show your racism proudly, we get that but.. could you not?

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:51 AM

Indian community mixed on changing the name Redskins: http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/indians-redskins-slur-20505945

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

they should scrap football...stoopid game anyways :-)

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:52 AM

Those are fighting words Lucy

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:52 AM

I'm with you, Lucy! ;)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:52 AM

I completely agree Lucy Football = boring!

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:52 AM

Football is right up there with apple pie and gas guzzling cars

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:52 AM

i prefer rugby..now theres a proper game! none of this padding. PAH!

Rick RosnerOct 15, 2013, 1:53 AM

Man apparently needs a spectacle.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:53 AM★ Spotlighted

But...could you not? LOL, Rachel. I feel that way about the Confederate flag wavers down South. Really, guys? Walk upright already.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:53 AM

At least no animals are harmed in football, unlike the Gladiator days

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:53 AM

rebecca,man has only just learnt to boil an egg! give him a chance

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:54 AM

@Rebecca! Haha! omg! I know! Those confederates it's sort of creepy how they won't let it go.. it's been over a hundred years guys give it up

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:54 AM

History is almost always just point of view

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:54 AM

Speaking of Confederate flag waivers, did everybody see Ted Cruz and Palin with the confederate flag waiver, waiving the flag to Obama at the White House yesterday?

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:55 AM

ahhhhh....soul. good thing to have.

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:55 AM

well as part native and learning this columbus info early in life I was more skeptical and found that most history is almost always written by rich white dudes in power or with money and that's not bias right? ;)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:55 AM

I don't usually think violence is an answer, but thoughts cross my mind when I hear some twangy half-wit trying to explain that the Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:55 AM

twangy half wit!!! excellent!! lol

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:56 AM

In Germany they say the same thing about the Swastika

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:56 AM

@Rebecca I know I don't know who they think they are kidding and THE MUSIC they listen too! OMG SO RACIST... ick disgusting

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:56 AM★ Spotlighted

Because I know that the larger discussion of the evolution of cultural symbols won't penetrate, so maybe just a little dragging behind a truck or a mock-lynching might get through...

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:56 AM

ooo we finished? forgot they on the other side there. ooops! :-)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:57 AM

@Rebecca I'd say mock lynching is fair

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:57 AM

I gotta salute Joe the Plumber for at least being an honest racist

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:57 AM

Thanks Jordan and Adam! :) Can't wait for the next installment! :)

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:57 AM

"WE WANT OUT THUMBS!"

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:57 AM

Thank you guys - so glad you're doing this! Zinn's book is so important, and it's important to discuss it! <3

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:57 AM★ Spotlighted

Good stuff guys...Happy Natives Day?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM

I'll take that, Seth!

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM★ Spotlighted

I cannot evolve Jordan I am of an "uncivilized, naive" nature

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM

I like that, Seth.

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM

freaking well awesome guys!! cheers!! :-)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM

Happy Native Day!!! <3

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM

That's what it should be after all this was there land.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM

White people figure we'll give them casinos and call it even

Lucy DyerOct 15, 2013, 1:58 AM

bye then

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 1:59 AM

thanks Jordan :) and Seth I agree... let's push for Native day.. although then the gov. would have to admit their wrong I won't hold my breathe

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 1:59 AM

True Rachel getting over govt to even agree the sky is blue would be an accomplishment these days

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 2:00 AM

Happy Natives' Day!

Liz WilliamsOct 15, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

What government? Do we have a government?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

LOL, Jordan. LOLOLOLOL! Feeling shame...at a bar-b-que.

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 2:01 AM

Yes our govt has their health spa open since it's considered an essential service---that govt!

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

I think we'd even take getting something other than swamp land to "settle" on... keep the money lol

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 2:02 AM

it would be fun to create that holiday.. :)

Rachel McDonnellOct 15, 2013, 2:03 AM

night thanks it was fun. :)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 2:04 AM

Thanks again!

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 2:04 AM

Enough with the thanking...that was another holiday where the natives got screwed

Rebecca Westbrook TokerOct 15, 2013, 2:04 AM

Nice one, Seth. ;)

Seth HochmanOct 15, 2013, 2:05 AM

Thanks Rebecca

ashlee valentinesMay 18, 2014, 6:59 AM

Hi I'm new