Jordan Birnbaum

Host

Howard Zinn's "A People's History..." Chapter 2

Nov 6, 2013·44 visitors

Adam Kizner

Cohost

Stage· 180 messages

Nov 6, 2013

Chapter two of the seminal book on American history deals with the birth of racism and slavery. It's predictably upsetting, but provides some very important insight into our society today.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

Mr. Kizner, I presume?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

Good evening to everyone

Adam Kizner · 2:15 AM

Hey hey

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

Hi to all the freinds in the forum - thanks for joining us

Adam Kizner · 2:16 AM

Good to be with you all again.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

So we are continuing on our quest to make it through A People's History by Howard Zinn, one chapter at a time.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I'd like to offer you all some tea and cookies, but that would be pointless...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

it's the virtual thought that counts

Adam Kizner · 2:16 AM

yes. thank you.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

so when we last left off...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

Columbus discovered America and initiated a genocide

Adam Kizner · 2:17 AM

we left off with Columbus "discovering" the New World, and set the tone for how different cultures are to be treated.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

Yes, good point on the culture abuse

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

fits nicely into our transition to slavery

Adam Kizner · 2:18 AM

Yes. Chapter 2 deals with the first settlers in America, and their embrace of slavery.

Adam Kizner · 2:18 AM

As Zinn puts it: “There is not a country in world history in which racism has been more important, for so long a time, as the United States.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

So Columbus set sail in 1492 -presumably over the next100-150 years people heard about this new place and decided to start coming over?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mano Dogs

“Well, there was Rome. And Greece. And Egypt...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

yes, but racism is a very specific form of abuse and expolitation

Adam Kizner · 2:20 AM

I suppose that is what happened. After pillaging through the west Indies, settlers started arriving in Virginia at around 1607 and had a difficult time surviving.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

so in the Thanksgiving myth, these were oppressed religious God-fearing folk. Is that accurate?

Adam Kizner · 2:21 AM

Yes, the white settlers were "good Christians"

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

now were they being oppressed, seeking economic promise, or both?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“I have way to many books at the top of my top priority list of reading. I knocked out this masterpiece (finally) about 6 years ago. Wow!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

I know, right

Adam Kizner · 2:22 AM

The problems they were having were surviving in the New World. I do not think they were victims of political or religious persecution themselves.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:22 AM

does he discuss what motivated them to come in the first place?

Adam Kizner · 2:23 AM

They were generally skilled people who were opportunists.

Adam Kizner · 2:23 AM

Probably seeking their own piece of "nobility"

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

seems more likely than religious oppression

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“the white men back then were such arseholes,weren't they?....'scuse language :-P”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

sums it up rather well.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Zinn doesn't really touch why the whiteys came to the new world. Except that he makes it clear that the Spaniards only came for gold.”

Adam Kizner · 2:24 AM

There is actually no mention of such a motivation for religious freedom. And yes, they were brutal.

Adam Kizner · 2:24 AM

Correct Rebecca.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

OK, so they get here, and what do they experience?

Adam Kizner · 2:25 AM

They experienced hardship. A particularly difficult winter of 1609-1610 that left them starving and desperate.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:25 AM

did they even know what they were getting into?

Adam Kizner · 2:25 AM

They had trouble growing anything, and they were actually quite lazy (for pioneers).

Adam Kizner · 2:26 AM

Furthermore, they were enraged that the Indians were able to cultivate the land with so much less labor.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:26 AM

so they hard no farming skills, and the so-called Puritan work ethic was nonsense?

Adam Kizner · 2:26 AM

Seems to be the case, yes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

OK - so they see the Indians thriving with much less work. How do they respond?

Adam Kizner · 2:27 AM

White settlers were enraged at the Indians’ ability to live off the land so successfully with, it seemed, very little labor. Instead of perhaps working with them in order to survive, the settlers chose to prove their own superiority, by killing and

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“Yeah you can't just oppress and contain, they also have to poison and destroy.”

Adam Kizner · 2:28 AM

... torturing the Indians and burning their villages and cornfields. Makes sense, no?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

Is there even a psychological basis to describe this behavior?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

It always seems like madness.

Adam Kizner · 2:28 AM

It does.

Adam Kizner · 2:29 AM

It would seem that the easier way out would have been to embrace the "local culture" and learn how to live.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

form an alliance, people! what's wrong with you?!

Adam Kizner · 2:29 AM

So, 1619 Virginia: Settlers were starving, desperate for labor, somewhat lazy and needed to grow corn for subsistence and tobacco for export.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:30 AM

and these I take it are labor intensive

Adam Kizner · 2:30 AM

yes, which is why slavery works so nicely in this new plan.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:31 AM

so slavery already existed in the world, right?

Adam Kizner · 2:31 AM

yes, for about 100 years, but it was taken to a new level in the new world.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:31 AM

so the settlers did what? engaged a slave runner?

Adam Kizner · 2:32 AM

White servants had not yet been brought over in sufficient quantity, and even still, they were contract workers, who owned their freedom, and a piece of the New World usually after 4—7 years.

Adam Kizner · 2:32 AM

So, black slaves were the answer. The African slave trade had already been rolling for 100 years by 1619, so it was a natural for the English settlers in the New World.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mano Dogs

“Slavery had existed for 100 years prior to the discovery of the New World? Really?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:32 AM

OK - so there was access to white labor, but it was relatively expensive.

Adam Kizner · 2:33 AM

Yes, in the Portugese and Spanish colonies.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

so in a move appropriate for a modern-day board room, they looked for ways to cut expenses

Adam Kizner · 2:33 AM

White labor was more akin to indentured servants, and not slavery.

Adam Kizner · 2:34 AM

The agricultural lifestyle was labor intensive. Not tea biscuit service.

Adam Kizner · 2:34 AM

Yes, the slave trade made economic sense from so many angels.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:34 AM

so they saw slavery in Spain and Portugal, and figured, "Now that seems like a good idea!"

Adam Kizner · 2:34 AM

angles, that is.

Adam Kizner · 2:35 AM

Yes. Seemed to have been just what the settlers needed.

Adam Kizner · 2:35 AM

As we learned from chapter 1, “cultures that are different are often taken as inferior, especially when such a judgment is practical and profitable.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

so there were already people who were capturing slaves and selling them. Now what was Africa's role in this?

Adam Kizner · 2:36 AM

The tribal leaders in Africa were also profiting from the slave trade.

Adam Kizner · 2:37 AM

The Dutch and English had costal outposts in Africa, but the African tribal leaders did the poaching in the interior.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

it kind of boggles the mind that Africans were enslaving and selling the captured. Is that a tribal thing?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Zinn does talk about African slavery and that justification for European slave trade, and he explains how African slavery looked more like indentured servitude.”

Adam Kizner · 2:37 AM

Africans were marched up to 1,000 miles to the coast where they were auctioned off.

Adam Kizner · 2:38 AM

Yes Rebecca, this fact was used to justify slavery in the New World. African slavery was more akin to the indentured servitude of the whites in Europe.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:38 AM

not that indentured servitude is OK, but it sure beats slavery

Adam Kizner · 2:38 AM

African slaves in Africa had rights. They may have even owned their own slaves.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:39 AM

human nature. what a downer.

Adam Kizner · 2:39 AM

But this continues in America for 350 years. Largely because of racism.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Well, I guess in Africa, it was illegal to kill your slaves or harm them. But not so in the New World. It was codified.”

Adam Kizner · 2:40 AM

Zinn tries to figure out of this racism is somehow hard-wired into cultures generally, or if it is taught as the means to an end.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mano Dogs

“Again, slaves had about as much a chance of buying their freedom as did indentured servants. It was largely a carrot stick.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

so let's take a step back -slaves begin to arrive in America, and the settlers begin to thrive?

Adam Kizner · 2:41 AM

Enslavement of blacks was made easier (than that of Indians or white servants, for example) because they had been torn from their land and culture. Indians were already at home in North America and the white indentured servants were in their own

Adam Kizner · 2:41 AM

European culture.

Adam Kizner · 2:42 AM

Yes, life gets a little easier for the settlers now. But still not easy.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:42 AM

but over time the number of slaves AND indentured servants grows aggressively, right?

Adam Kizner · 2:43 AM

Yes, very rapidly. There is a huge profit motive.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:43 AM

people were making huge moiney from the slave trade?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“oh the kids are up and they want to eat. I will check back later.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:44 AM

later jonathan

Adam Kizner · 2:44 AM

It would seem to be a double your money type of "investment"

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:44 AM

so what is the relationship between indentured servants and slaves like at this point?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“slavery was a means to an end. people thought of as toys for the rich to play with”

Adam Kizner · 2:45 AM

In the early days, they thought of each other as sharing the same fate.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

so they viewed each other as equals?

Adam Kizner · 2:46 AM

White servants and Black slaves went out together, ate together, and plotted against their masters together.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:46 AM

OK - that's pretty huge for the consideration of whether racism is a natutral or constructed phenomenon

Adam Kizner · 2:46 AM

The biggest risk to the settlers, at that time was that these two "sub cultures" would band together in an uprising.

Adam Kizner · 2:47 AM

Yes, at this time, it would appear that there was little distinction between white servants and black slaves.

Adam Kizner · 2:48 AM

With slavery however, and by design, came racism (hatred/contempt/pity/patronization), which bestowed an inferior position on blacks in America for the next 350 years.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:48 AM

and there wasn't any emnity between them either. In fact, didn't they quite literally band together?

Adam Kizner · 2:48 AM

Yes. They even co-mingled in the biblical sense.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

and were there any protests or uprisings demanding bette5r rights?

Adam Kizner · 2:49 AM

There were rebellions quite often, with black and white slave-class rising up against white settlers.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“That's what's cool about Zinn's book - he dug up newspaper articles about uprisings.”

Adam Kizner · 2:50 AM

Yes, to get a baseline, he had to find out about life before institutionalized racism.

Adam Kizner · 2:51 AM

Now, the settlers were starting to get nervous, as they were becoming out numbered.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:51 AM

so these uprisings obviously scared the crap out of the settlers, right? I mean they were far outnumbered...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:51 AM

lol

Adam Kizner · 2:51 AM

right on brother...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:51 AM

OK - so what'd they do about it?

Adam Kizner · 2:52 AM

They actually created laws to make blacks sub-human.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

Boom.

Adam Kizner · 2:52 AM

This made everyone feel better about slavery, and set white servants and black slaves on different "career paths."

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:53 AM

so with slightly better rights, indentured servants were no longer inclined to band togetehr with the black slaves?

Adam Kizner · 2:53 AM

Slavery was not even legal at the time, but laws were written that severely punished blacks, and the whites that cavorted with them.

Adam Kizner · 2:53 AM

white servants suddenly saw a light at the end of the tunnel.

Adam Kizner · 2:54 AM

if they just stayed away from their black colleagues.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:54 AM

Evil as it was, that is some pretty sophisticated psychological warfare, especially for the era. I mean, they REALLY understood the worst parts of human nature.

Adam Kizner · 2:55 AM

the whole divide and conquer technique...

Adam Kizner · 2:55 AM

even within the black slaves, there were "field negroes and house negroes" in an attempt to further sub-divide the slaves.

Adam Kizner · 2:56 AM

this made uprisings more fragmented, and less-likely to occur.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:56 AM

it's sick.

Adam Kizner · 2:56 AM

but hugely profitable...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

so from this perspective, racism was invented to keep attention off of the indefensible behavior of the rich.

Adam Kizner · 2:57 AM

psychological and physical abuse to keep the agro-economy working.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mano Dogs

“They also did that to the Indians and the Irish and the Chinese, though. They were still "relocating" Amer-Indians into "education camps" in the '60s after The Yellow Peril of the Chinese Invasion in the early 20th-Century. People... are just mean.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“People are just mean, Mano. They are. But this crap has to stop. So we have to take a long hard look at what happened and how it was engineered socially so that maybe we can undo it.”

Adam Kizner · 2:58 AM

yes. divide your enemies.

Adam Kizner · 2:58 AM

A People's History should be required reading for everyone.

Adam Kizner · 2:59 AM

Now, to your point Rebecca, how do we undue 350 years of institutionalized racism?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

I think it's interesting that racism to this day still thrives in the poorest communities. It's like it's still working at the source.

Adam Kizner · 2:59 AM

Yes Jordan. Poor whites still don't see themselves as having the same fate as poor blacks.

Adam Kizner · 3:00 AM

It is not an economic line that divides us, it is a color line.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

well, that's the perception of the truth, which is the opposite of the actual truth.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“We just happen to be largely an audience of white apologists.”

Adam Kizner · 3:01 AM

Well, someone should apologize.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

we don't have to apologize for whites. we have to apologize for the rich.

Adam Kizner · 3:01 AM

That is true Jordan.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

it sucked for almost all white, people too. Still does.

Adam Kizner · 3:02 AM

It's like the poor tea party guys that somehow think they are more aligned with the Koch brothers than the real "brothers"... if you know what I mean.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

of course

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

and when you can see it clearly, it is SO depressing

Adam Kizner · 3:03 AM

Still working the same playbook.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from tracy demarzo

“"we have to apologize for the rich". just like we desire with today's politics.. sorry I came in late on this chat..”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

better late than never!

Adam Kizner · 3:04 AM

Divide the poor so that they don't organize together to demand change.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I think that racism is losing its hold, honestly. I think people believe more broadly in human equality (there's a lot of work to do still). But because racism is losing its hold, classism is experiencing a resurgence.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

@Rebecca -maybe it's just that classism is becoming more apparent as racism fades?

Adam Kizner · 3:04 AM

I would agree, but within classism, racism still exists.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Okay, so, what we're seeing is that the social engineering that allowed slavery to thrive for so long persists TO THIS DAY - we're still not unified against the rich, we're all just hoping to BE the rich someday...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:05 AM

I agree witht that @Rebecca

Adam Kizner · 3:05 AM

Exactly. just tow the line and keep your mouth shut and you may get a piece of the action.

Adam Kizner · 3:06 AM

Carrots for some, sticks for others.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

all right - so just for a bit of context, we are still a British colony, we've launched the slave trade in 1619, and then imported a huge amount of additional slaves and white indentured servants, and then made laws to keep them separated, creating r

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

acism

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

that sum it up in a sentence?

Adam Kizner · 3:07 AM

yes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

because that sets us up for Chapter 3 pretty well, doesn't it?

Adam Kizner · 3:07 AM

racism was the tool to keep the disenfranchised whites on board.

Adam Kizner · 3:08 AM

and to keep the blacks in their place.

Adam Kizner · 3:08 AM

Chapter 3: Persons of a Mean and Vile Condition

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

what's that one about?

Adam Kizner · 3:09 AM

We'll find out in a few weeks...

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mano Dogs

“:D”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mano Dogs

“I just want to explain that racism in America, even historically, is not a black and white issue.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

right, Mano - we'd argue it is an economic and psychological issue.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Agreed. It is so intertwined with religion and economics...I think that's why it persists.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:10 AM

OK Adam, any last thoughts to add?

Adam Kizner · 3:11 AM

I think we summed it up. It is important to note that the way we treat cultures different that ours is a recurring theme in American history.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“You can't keep thinking you're better than someone else in the face of evidence to the contrary unless God says so and you have more money.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

yeah, it's pretty shitty.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

All right, well thank you my good friend! And thanks to the forum for the lively participation!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

made it lots of fun!

Adam Kizner · 3:12 AM

Glad to be with you. Thanks for the forum.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

nite all!

Adam Kizner · 3:13 AM

Tawk to you later.

Forum · 121

Forum· 121 comments

44 visitors

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 4, 2013, 6:58 PM

Hell yes! I am so glad this is continuing to happen!

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:15 AM

hey you two!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:15 AM

Good evening!

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:15 AM

Hi all!

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:16 AM

hey Mano and Rebecca

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:16 AM★ Spotlighted

I'd like to offer you all some tea and cookies, but that would be pointless...

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:16 AM

i'm just here for the free food

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:16 AM

Or how about some custard apple?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:17 AM

Yeah...that.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:18 AM

What role did sharknadoes play in the founding of America?

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:18 AM

It is like eating cotton candy in the form of fruit…kind of like how life should be.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:18 AM

Oooh, I want that! Custard apple, not slavery.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:19 AM

"It is still with us"

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:19 AM

Sharknadoes eschew slaves. They're very egalitarian.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:19 AM

Do remember when and where you read this incredible mandatory read?

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:19 AM★ Spotlighted

Well, there was Rome. And Greece. And Egypt...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:20 AM

I just got it today. I heard about it long ago, but it stayed on the "To Read" list until fate forced me to bump it up the list. :)

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:20 AM

The novelization of Sharknado, Rebecca? Now that I know the ending...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:21 AM

LOL, no, I was talking about "A People's History." What the hell is a Sharknadoe?

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:21 AM★ Spotlighted

I have way to many books at the top of my top priority list of reading. I knocked out this masterpiece (finally) about 6 years ago. Wow!

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:22 AM

Sharknadoes are a very real thing, Rebecca. Very real and very dangerous. They may well have played an integral part in the founding of this country as we know it.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:23 AM

Well, they're not in the book. SO far.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:23 AM

I thought they came to the US to escape religious persecution in England?

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:23 AM

Can you break down the meaning of "Sharknado" please.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:23 AM★ Spotlighted

the white men back then were such arseholes,weren't they?....'scuse language :-P

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:23 AM

Then I am forced to question the veracity of said tome, Rebecca.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:23 AM★ Spotlighted

Zinn doesn't really touch why the whiteys came to the new world. Except that he makes it clear that the Spaniards only came for gold.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:24 AM

They're still the same today mixed with rapid advances in technology.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:24 AM

Well, Mano, history is always evolving as we learn more. Maybe he'll put the Sharknadoes in the next revision...

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:24 AM

It is a tornado what picks up a lot of sharks and throws them at people. Because sharks biting people just isn't enough these days.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:24 AM

Many are swindlers with no conscience it appears.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:25 AM

Well, he better if he wants ME to read it! And he WANTS me to read it. Oh, he WANTS me to read it.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:25 AM

raping,pilaging,fraud,thinking they were better than those they had "conquered"....oooh wait,sounds kinda familiar. oh how time repeats itself

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:25 AM

Dude, the Aztecs coulda used some of those against the Spainards...

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:26 AM★ Spotlighted

Yeah you can't just oppress and contain, they also have to poison and destroy.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:27 AM

What about ghost sharks? Sorry guys but it sounds to me like this Zinn fellow didn't do a lot of research.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:27 AM

Ok who has actually read this book can you please raise your hands.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:27 AM

Ghost sharks are real as shit.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:28 AM

Has anybody here read the Quran?

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:28 AM

Not when they were clearly outnumbered by a ratio of something like 10:1, no.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:28 AM

so much of what was done back then,is being done now. trouble is,we are fighting back.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:29 AM

A ghost sharknado, on quite the other hand, is just silly.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:31 AM

So nobody in this conversation has read either book?

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:31 AM

john,i've read it - twice

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:32 AM

I have not read the Quran. I am reading A People's History right now.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:32 AM★ Spotlighted

Slavery had existed for 100 years prior to the discovery of the New World? Really?

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:32 AM

Then Von Daniken's not so crazy after all, huh?

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:33 AM

Thanks for answering. If every American could just read it now (the actual hard copy) book, it would be fantastic.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:33 AM

I think I'm gonna pass, thinks.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:34 AM

Technically though slaves could buy their way to freedom as well. In fact, the New World slavery system was actually very similar to the Feudal system on which it was based.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:34 AM

WHITE slaves, Mano.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:35 AM

Indentured servants.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:35 AM

Mm the Settlers kinda brought it over from Europe; they didn't have to look too far. It had been being practiced there for a very long time.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:35 AM

Last page of chap 2 and around 1700 what the Virginia House of Burgesses declared.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:36 AM

Warring African tribes originally sold slaves to the white man. Apparently slavery existed there at some point.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:36 AM

Mano, yeah - they had like a 2% nobility and 98% feudal serf ratio there.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:37 AM

Indeed, Rebecca. Like I said, not to be a Debbie Downer but PC revisionist history kind of strikes a moral bone with me.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:37 AM★ Spotlighted

Zinn does talk about African slavery and that justification for European slave trade, and he explains how African slavery looked more like indentured servitude.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:37 AM

Yep.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:39 AM

Not really, in fact not at all; on paper maybe but in practice, the two were basically identical.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:39 AM★ Spotlighted

Again, slaves had about as much a chance of buying their freedom as did indentured servants. It was largely a carrot stick.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:40 AM★ Spotlighted

Well, I guess in Africa, it was illegal to kill your slaves or harm them. But not so in the New World. It was codified.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:41 AM

Yes their must be serious revolt now no doubt 100%. They have been trying to kill us softly for way too long.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:41 AM

And did so in Europe because of Classism. And did so in Rome because of religious/political division. The larger Truth is that human beings suck and will always seek power and control over others.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:41 AM★ Spotlighted

slavery was a means to an end. people thought of as toys for the rich to play with

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:41 AM

still is today

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:42 AM

Not really, Lucy. The plantations existed in the South and they created the product. The shipping yards in the North and they shipped the product.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:42 AM

So, Mano, doesn't that kind of lend itself to the assessment that racism isn't REAL, it's just something we make up out of convenience - like Classism and Religion?

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:43 AM

Very much so, Rebecca. It's real but it's a justification.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:43 AM

an ends to a means...just what i said,mano.

Johnathonfall thethirdNov 6, 2013, 2:43 AM★ Spotlighted

oh the kids are up and they want to eat. I will check back later.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:44 AM

A lot of the racism even of today comes more from the resentment of the end of a way of life - the plantation way of life - than anything else. Oh, sorry Lucy.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:44 AM

I mean, Racism isn't a biological trait. It exists, but it's all just a fabrication that large numbers of people buy into. Like politics.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:45 AM

racism is a taught thing.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:45 AM

Precisely. It's a learned thing. But, to be sure, xenophobic fears of differing cultures and practices, etc., play into the whole thing.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:45 AM

you must unlearn what you have learned...

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:47 AM

Even though it's very popular to think that all black people vied for the end of slavery they most certainly did not. They were also going to lose their way of life. There was no guarantee anyone Up North would hire them for legitimate jobs.

Lucy DyerNov 6, 2013, 2:47 AM

defending the indefensible

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:47 AM

And, for the most part, they didn't. For decades, most black people worked as servants to white families.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:48 AM

I don't think it's a defense, so much, just an interesting observation about a side to the end of slavery that we might not consider often...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:48 AM

Change is always scary - that's why so many battered wives stay in the relationship.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:48 AM

No one's defending slavery, just trying to offer the truth against what has become the accepted version of American History.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:49 AM★ Spotlighted

That's what's cool about Zinn's book - he dug up newspaper articles about uprisings.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:50 AM

He's challenging the accepted version that Black slaves were docile, were completely subdues by circumstance and white power.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:51 AM

Again, while it sounds great on paper, there isn't a whole lot of difference between slavery as it was practiced before the Civil War and how blacks lived/worked after the Emancipation Proclamation.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:51 AM

They still depended on white families for work, lodging, food, and everything else and still were refused equal rights. That's why the Civil Rights uprisings of the 1960s happened.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:51 AM

You are right about that, Mano.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:54 AM★ Spotlighted

They also did that to the Indians and the Irish and the Chinese, though. They were still "relocating" Amer-Indians into "education camps" in the '60s after The Yellow Peril of the Chinese Invasion in the early 20th-Century. People... are just mean.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:56 AM

That exists to this day as American blacks are viciously racist against one another according to skin tonality. There are Apple Reds, High Yellows, etc.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:56 AM★ Spotlighted

People are just mean, Mano. They are. But this crap has to stop. So we have to take a long hard look at what happened and how it was engineered socially so that maybe we can undo it.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:57 AM

And, again, this version of history makes it all sound like the round-eyed white demons nefariously engineered the whole thing with their genius brains. This isn't anywhere near the truth, though.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:57 AM

Dude, you have to read the book. It's more than that.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 2:58 AM★ Spotlighted

We just happen to be largely an audience of white apologists.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 2:59 AM

They were, instead, most often simply opportunistic and institutionalized pre-existing fears and cultural disparities. They were far from the Evil Geniuses they've been bandied about as.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:00 AM

Not me. I wasn't around then, I'm from the South where the overwhelming majority of poverty in America exists to this day and that statement is simply untrue.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:00 AM★ Spotlighted

I think that racism is losing its hold, honestly. I think people believe more broadly in human equality (there's a lot of work to do still). But because racism is losing its hold, classism is experiencing a resurgence.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:01 AM

Down here, the overwhelming majority of the white kids talk, dress, and act like black kids.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:01 AM

You can. You should also apologize to me for insinuating I condone slavery or am racist - because that is precisely what you are doing.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:02 AM

Whoa, dude, I am in no way insinuating that. Peace, Brother.

tracy demarzoNov 6, 2013, 3:02 AM★ Spotlighted

"we have to apologize for the rich". just like we desire with today's politics.. sorry I came in late on this chat..

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:04 AM

I've nothing to apologize for. THAT is a true statement yet it contradicts your earlier point that this is not an economic divide but a racial one.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:04 AM★ Spotlighted

Okay, so, what we're seeing is that the social engineering that allowed slavery to thrive for so long persists TO THIS DAY - we're still not unified against the rich, we're all just hoping to BE the rich someday...

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:06 AM

But, again Rebecca, the idea that this is all "engineered" is the real fallacy; you're missing the forest for the trees. Like you said, the rich are really just capitalizing on that "self-made man" carrot stick.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:06 AM

But it's...endemic. That dynamic exists in every system I can think of: work, school, socio-economics...

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:06 AM

Right.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:06 AM

It always has; it's Human Nature. :D

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:07 AM

Again, these white guys aren't fucking geniuses. Greater civilizations - TRULY GREAT empires - worked on these same principles.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:07 AM

No, it's not engineered. Not by a master planner. But it was engineered in more subtle ways, by a set of agreements that a certain class made.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:08 AM

This is apparent in the slave code laws that were written. This established what slavery was, who and what slaves were, what could be done to them...it gave owners a vocabulary and a sense of ownership.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:08 AM

And I hate to sound combative with the guest host because I came here to learn and discuss, so please don't dismiss my criticisms as such.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

I just want to explain that racism in America, even historically, is not a black and white issue.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Agreed. It is so intertwined with religion and economics...I think that's why it persists.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:10 AM★ Spotlighted

You can't keep thinking you're better than someone else in the face of evidence to the contrary unless God says so and you have more money.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:12 AM

Well... that's kind of world history, guys. lol

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:12 AM

The very basis for wars, the expansion of empires, the decline of the same.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:12 AM

LOL, Mano. Except not. Because it's true. Schmurrr.

Mano DogsNov 6, 2013, 3:12 AM

I LOVE YOU TAWKERS!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:12 AM

Thanks, guys! See you next time!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 6, 2013, 3:13 AM

Mano, that's what I'm talking about. You're right. And it has to stop. And we can stop the endless cycle of wars...if we change our MINDS and our HABITS>

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 7, 2013, 3:12 PM

Additional Resource: http://acronymtv.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/how-racism-is-constructed-through-law-to-benefit-rule-of-a-wealthy-minority/