Katie Klabusich

Host

ICYMI Your Selfie is a Cry for Help

Nov 27, 2013·168 visitors

Lauren Rankin

Cohost

Stage· 238 messages

Nov 27, 2013

According to Jezebel, your penchant for shooting and sharing pics online are a "cry for help" http://ow.ly/r7fKq. I'm bringing in badass intersectional feminist writer Lauren Rankin to discuss why this is problematic. We say, "Selfie Away!!" Read one of my fav pieces from Lauren & join us Tuesday! http://ow.ly/r7gfc

Katie Klabusich · 9:58 PM

★ Spotlighted from Tawkers Admin

“Welcome to the Forum! To get involved, click "Who's Here" and then FOLLOW people.”

Katie Klabusich · 9:58 PM

★ Spotlighted from Tawkers Admin

“Once 25 people gather in the audience, a comment needs at least one LIKE to become visible to the two Hosts and anyone not following them. So LIKE the comments you want everyone to see!”

Katie Klabusich · 12:00 AM

Hi, everybody! Thanks so much for stopping in to talk about selfies, shaming, body image and other people telling us what feminism is "supposed" to look like!

Katie Klabusich · 12:00 AM

Real quick, because a lot of people are new to tawkers -- anyone can listen! If you want to jump in, type your comment and other people can hit with a thumbs up; that's when Lauren and I can see it.

Katie Klabusich · 12:00 AM

Then we can spotlight it into the chat.

Katie Klabusich · 12:01 AM

First, we have to give big thanks to the creators of the #FeministSelfie hashtag that responded to the piece in Jezebel.

Katie Klabusich · 12:01 AM

Jamie Nesbitt Golden, aka @thewayoftheid, and Kate Averett, aka @convergecollide are both AMAZING twitter follows and started the convo Lauren and I were having about body image.

Katie Klabusich · 12:02 AM

If you haven't read Lauren's stuff, she's a kickass freelance writer and all around awesome feminist. Lauren, thanks for joining me!

Lauren Rankin · 12:02 AM

Thank you for having me, Katie! And thanks for the kind words.

Katie Klabusich · 12:03 AM

Of course. So tell me what you thought of "The Selfie" before the Jezebel piece described them as a "cry for help" in the eye catching title last week.

Katie Klabusich · 12:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I think "cry for help" seems like a way to categorize it easily. I don't think it's that cut and dry. I don't mind seeing selfies. What's the difference who took the picture? I know lots of overly vain people who post images they didn't take.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“So now that I just read Eleanor's comment, I guess what I meant to say is "I agree with Eleanor"”

Lauren Rankin · 12:03 AM

I actually saw the #feministselfie hash tag before I even saw the piece, so automatically before reading it, I knew that there were going to be some problems.

Katie Klabusich · 12:03 AM

Yeah, twitter will pre-warn you...

Lauren Rankin · 12:04 AM

But I think the biggest thing that the piece triggered for me was a sense of confusion about what is a feminist act.

Katie Klabusich · 12:04 AM

Interesting. I had a similar reaction -- but with more caps lock involved.

Lauren Rankin · 12:04 AM

For me, someone who has struggled with body dysmorphia since I was 16 years old, sharing a "selfie" would be an act of empowerment.

Katie Klabusich · 12:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Could that also be a case of people not understanding what feminism actually is?”

Katie Klabusich · 12:05 AM

For me as well. Eleanor and I were talking about this yesterday. The idea of what feminism "looks like."

Lauren Rankin · 12:05 AM

Good point, Eleanor. But this is a debate that keeps happening in feminism: who gets to be a "good feminist" and who gets to be a "bad feminist."

Lauren Rankin · 12:06 AM

And in this case, the idea that sharing a selfie is an anti-feminist act because you may want to be seen as beautiful really struck me as problematic.

Katie Klabusich · 12:06 AM

Me as well. Especially since not all my selfies are intended to be beautiful.

Lauren Rankin · 12:06 AM

Mary Drummer, (@OHtheMaryD on twitter), noted that for some women, particularly those who dont' see images of themselves reflected in popular society, selfies can be a revolutionary means of empowering yourself, of raising consciousness.

Katie Klabusich · 12:07 AM

Some times they just convey an emotion or expression better than 140 letters/numbers do.

Katie Klabusich · 12:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“i hate labels. why can't you just be yourself?”

Lauren Rankin · 12:07 AM

I mean, sure, Lucy. Labels can be annoying. But we live in a world with identities, whether you choose them or they are chosen for you.

Katie Klabusich · 12:07 AM

Me too, Lucy, especially when they're used to take away agency from people. Like labeling all selfies as one thing.

Katie Klabusich · 12:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Where is that line drawn? Or more importantly, why is there a line? Shouldn't is just be, feminism is good. Whatever that supposed feminism is, isn't”

Lauren Rankin · 12:08 AM

I think the problem is *who* gets to determine who is a good feminist. It's not women of color. It's not trans women. It's not lesbians. By and large, it's white, straight, cisgender women of privilege who determine what "good feminists" look like.

Lauren Rankin · 12:09 AM

And that's a really big problem.

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

Absolutely.

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

Obviously, we're two white cis straight women discussing it.

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

So there's that.

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

But we have both struggled with body issues, which is what we were talking about when FeministSelfie popped up in our timelines.

Lauren Rankin · 12:09 AM

For sure, and that's a problem, as well. Sometimes we fail to check our privilege. This might have been one of those times.

Lauren Rankin · 12:10 AM

Yeah, definitely. #feministselfie struck me, as someone who has battled body dysmorphia and bulimia, in a specific way. And that's what you and I were really talking about initially.

Katie Klabusich · 12:10 AM

Maybe; but appearance is a trigger for me. And it's one for you. Living up to other people's imposed standards and requirements is an enormous problem that transcends.

Katie Klabusich · 12:10 AM

Yep

Katie Klabusich · 12:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“But we can't really help our "privelege." I had nothing to do with my parents being white, or me being straight. I don't think my stance is any less viable simply b/c of that”

Lauren Rankin · 12:11 AM

Definitely, I worry about that constantly.

Katie Klabusich · 12:11 AM

@E That's exactly what privilege is; knowing who you are and why you might miss.

Katie Klabusich · 12:11 AM

It's why public forums are so important. The chance to know as many different people as possible.

Lauren Rankin · 12:11 AM

We can't help the privilege we were born with, but we can challenge it. We have a duty to check it, to elevate marginalized people. When we fail, we get called out.

Lauren Rankin · 12:12 AM

I didn't choose to be white, but I get certain privileges from bring white that are undeniable. I have to own that, to challenge my own complicit behavior that perpetuates white supremacy.

Katie Klabusich · 12:12 AM

I work with Jay at Best of the Left Podcast (cis, straight, white, male, middle class). He describes privilege as a bank error in your favor. You didn't cause it; but you see it show up and know you didn't earn it. It's then up to u what u do w/that.

Lauren Rankin · 12:12 AM

Love that.

Katie Klabusich · 12:13 AM

Me too

Katie Klabusich · 12:13 AM

One of the listeners took another step I thought was interesting….

Katie Klabusich · 12:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I absolutely agree with that. But I do feel that our voices should be heard as well, equally. Which is the idea behind feminism - being equal, not better than men, but equal.”

Lauren Rankin · 12:14 AM

Right, but our voices *aren't* heard equally. White women, straight women, cis women are heard far more often than women of color, lesbians, trans women. That's the problem.

Katie Klabusich · 12:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Here's the thing. The writer- Erin Gloris Ryan, is quite well known in mainstream feminism. She knew exactly what she was posting.”

Lauren Rankin · 12:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Cry for Help is what gets me. Who are you to say what is or isn't a positive experience? As someone who struggled with her weight issues, I am disgusted with the idea that my type of empowerment isn't good enough.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“We can interface with women of color, lesbians, trans sexuals and make sure that they are heard”

Katie Klabusich · 12:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“True, but like you said, we can help be a medium for the "unheard" voices”

Katie Klabusich · 12:15 AM

@E -- totally. Dialog is how we evolve in the way we see ourselves and each other.

Lauren Rankin · 12:15 AM

Great point, Jessica. Assuming that a selfie is a cry for help seems really privileged. You cannot know someone's motivation unless you are them.

Katie Klabusich · 12:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Which is great as being an ally, but we have to make sure we aren't making the spotlight turn to us and away from marginalized groups' voices.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:16 AM

That was how I felt about it. I really felt judged in a weird way when I saw the piece.

Katie Klabusich · 12:16 AM

"Now I have to explain my profile pics??" And I looked around and half the avis are selfies.

Katie Klabusich · 12:16 AM

Mine was a selfie I took at the women's clinic in Chicago where I escort when I'm at home.

Lauren Rankin · 12:16 AM

Ha! Yeah, I'm not a big selfie taker, so I didn't reflect on it from a personal point of view.

Lauren Rankin · 12:17 AM

But what really bothered me is the assumption that if you *do* want approval, if you *do* want someone to tell you that you're beautiful, that that makes you desperate, that that is anti-feminist.

Katie Klabusich · 12:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I think the selfie that Katie posted on FB of Meryl Streep and Hilary Clinton was great”

Lauren Rankin · 12:17 AM

Wanting to be beautiful and wanting to be loved are not anti-feminist at all.

Katie Klabusich · 12:17 AM

GREAT point, Lauren. So what if we do want a little positive response?

Katie Klabusich · 12:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Katie and I spoke about that - feminists are supposed to be unattractive activists that burn bras and hate men...there's a big problem with the pop-culture feminist paradigm”

Lauren Rankin · 12:18 AM

What we need to do is move away from criticizing women's individual, intimate choices and instead criticize and challenge the patriarchal structures that make those choices available to us.

Katie Klabusich · 12:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Are they "cries for help?"”

Lauren Rankin · 12:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Lauren, I wasn't either until I learned how to do it. Now it is a source of reflection on my journey to a healthy body image. That's my personal feeling on my own selfies.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:18 AM

I think that phrase "pop culture feminism" could be useful. That's how the piece felt to me. I don't need everything to be academic, but thoughtful. You know, educated with some input and insight from as many people as possible.

Lauren Rankin · 12:19 AM

I hope so, Jessica! I think Jamie Nesbitt Golden and Kate Averett might have inspired me to take more feminist selfies!

Katie Klabusich · 12:19 AM

Ha! Me too. Kate and I (if you're joining us late, they're the women who sparked the #FeministSelfie hashtag) were trading selfies with goofy faces in them.

Katie Klabusich · 12:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Exactly. And I think that's the problem with mainstream pop culture. It's not even a slightly balanced microcosm of real people, real women.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:20 AM

YES -- exactly -- and it's not JUST pop culture.

Lauren Rankin · 12:20 AM

Absolutely, a lot of feminist blogs are a reflection of "pop culture feminism" for many reasons, but a large one is ad dollars. They want to make a profit and garner as many advertising dollars as possible, and clickbait works wonders.

Katie Klabusich · 12:20 AM

(thanks, Eleanor, for the accidental segue)

Katie Klabusich · 12:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“YES! Lauren. Critical self-analysis and analysis of structures that encourage patriarchy are what the focus should be.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“"Mean Girl Feminism"”

Katie Klabusich · 12:21 AM

It came out this morning that the PlanB (emergency contraception) pill is being relabeled in Europe as "ineffective" for women over 165lbs.

Katie Klabusich · 12:21 AM

So….cue the problematic headlines.

Lauren Rankin · 12:21 AM

I believe it's 175 pounds, but either way, it has been problematic as Hell.

Katie Klabusich · 12:22 AM

It doesn't work at all over 175, not recommended at 165.

Lauren Rankin · 12:22 AM

NPR had a piece that called women over 175lbs "obese." Talk about head desk.

Katie Klabusich · 12:22 AM

Right?? These are the days were having your own agency and taking your own damn pictures is important.

Lauren Rankin · 12:22 AM

Ahhhhh, well there it is. I mean, not much you can do about science (except adjust the doses), but some of the responses really reflect the idea that fat = bad.

Katie Klabusich · 12:22 AM

I don't suppose NPR put a height with that weight…. (that wouldn't make it better; I'm just trying to make it worse over here)

Katie Klabusich · 12:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Another interesting thing with contraception is how much of Europe uses the IUD method - non hormonal, lasts for 10 years. Here it isn't recommended b/c pharmaceutical companies can't make bank off of it. It's barely talked about as an option”

Lauren Rankin · 12:23 AM

I'm short (5'0"), so 165lbs for me is far different than 165lbs for someone who is 5'9". This blanket wave that all women over 165lbs are "obese" is absurd.

Katie Klabusich · 12:23 AM

@E -- it's gotten more popular now that the ACA requires it to be covered. Got mine in January!! <<happy dance>>

Katie Klabusich · 12:23 AM

Yeah. I'm like 10 lbs from obese according to NPR.

Lauren Rankin · 12:23 AM

THANKS A LOT, NPR.

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

I got made fun of my entire childhood for being skinny.

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Ha - nice! I got mine last January :)”

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

Right?

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

Ugh.

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

CNN's was nice: "Morning-after pill may not work for overweight women"

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

I have thoughts, CNN….

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Obese is one of the worst words.”

Lauren Rankin · 12:24 AM

The only world in which all women over 165lbs are obese is a world in which every woman is short like me or a stick figure. And that is not our world, thankfully.

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

Mostly those thoughts involve the words "fuck you," but that's just me.

Katie Klabusich · 12:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I don't know that it's a bad word. Obesity is a serious problem in this country”

Katie Klabusich · 12:25 AM

It's a problem as a generic term.

Katie Klabusich · 12:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I mean real obesity, not normal weight”

Lauren Rankin · 12:25 AM

Obese is a TERRIBLE word. I tweeted earlier today that it serves as a subtle slur that shames someone while pretending to be scientific.

Katie Klabusich · 12:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“What would be a good word to describe people in that category, legitimately in that category?”

Katie Klabusich · 12:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“I was "Morbidly Obese" for several years. It has damaging effects.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:26 AM

Yeah. It's not a word that's being used in a doctor's office to calmly discuss with a patient that their family history of heart problems means they should probably lose weight.

Katie Klabusich · 12:26 AM

When CNN and NPR start hurling it around it perpetuates shame narratives.

Katie Klabusich · 12:26 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“I'm not talking about medical use. I'm talking about doctors fat-shaming me. Using it to scare me into weight loss.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:26 AM

@Jessica -- that's awful. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Lauren Rankin · 12:26 AM

It's really about context, and too often, obese is used as a slur to denigrate people for their weight.

Lauren Rankin · 12:27 AM

What troubles me about the Plan B revelation is that women over 165lbs have less options about reproductive control. That's a real problem.

Katie Klabusich · 12:27 AM

Eleanor's question is one of the reasons these conversations are SO important. If you've never struggled with weight or body image issues, you likely hear the clinical use of the word.

Katie Klabusich · 12:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I was obese as a child. Truly and honestly obese. And that did push me to be healthy b/c I learned about the risks attached to that. It shouldn't be thrown around like it's meaningless but I don't think it's medically bad”

Katie Klabusich · 12:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“I can know I am the medical terms without doctors using it to shame me into weight loss. Using positive words and helping people with eating disorders is key. There are better ways. Sorry if this is triggering for anyone.”

Lauren Rankin · 12:28 AM

We need to enable ALL women, regardless of weight, to have full reproductive control. There needs to be a type of emergency contraception that works for women over 165lbs and we need it now.

Katie Klabusich · 12:29 AM

Yeah. I'm a little worried that so many women are essentially disqualified from PlanB. Oh, here's the MotherJones piece on it, in case people want more info: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/11/plan-b-morning-after-pill-weight-limit-pound

Katie Klabusich · 12:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“can i stop crying now? this is bringing way too many memories. none good”

Katie Klabusich · 12:29 AM

I"m sorry, Lucy. <3

Katie Klabusich · 12:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Thanks Katie. It's been a crap week. I'm ok. :)”

Lauren Rankin · 12:29 AM

Discussions of weight can be very triggering. I have vividly painful memories of being told I was fat by my pediatrician when I was 11 years old.

Katie Klabusich · 12:29 AM

Ugh. That's obnoxious.

Lauren Rankin · 12:30 AM

My mother was having none of it. She chewed him out and we stormed out of there.

Katie Klabusich · 12:30 AM

Nice!

Lauren Rankin · 12:30 AM

But I wonder -- how much of what that doctor was saying to me was because I was an "overweight child" and how much because I was a "chubby girl?"

Lauren Rankin · 12:30 AM

I can't help but feel like gender was present there.

Katie Klabusich · 12:30 AM

Oh. Really good question.

Katie Klabusich · 12:30 AM

Alright...

Katie Klabusich · 12:31 AM

That's a good side topic. How we as a society view young boys and girls in respect to body type.

Katie Klabusich · 12:31 AM

How many times did you hear as a kid "oh, he just hasn't hit a growth spurt yet" or "he'll grow into those <insert body part here>"

Katie Klabusich · 12:31 AM

Always with male pronouns though.

Katie Klabusich · 12:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“What do you think would be a better way of letting overweight people know they need to live a healthy lifestyle?”

Lauren Rankin · 12:31 AM

Absolutely, our bodies are gendered for us from birth.

Katie Klabusich · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“@ Eleanor- more proactive programs- less stigma, access to healthy foods. There's a great article on Cracked (of all places) If you all wouldn't mind me posting. It's about being poor.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:32 AM

Shoot, Jess! If it doesn't get highlighted, tweet it at me.

Katie Klabusich · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I saw that one! It's a great article!”

Lauren Rankin · 12:33 AM

I don't think thin people have any business telling fat people what to do with their bodies. Instead, we should subsidize veggies and fruits, challenge the stigma of fatness.

Katie Klabusich · 12:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage”

Katie Klabusich · 12:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“The problem is also access to healthcare. I needed to be told by a doctor that I was really overweight. When I first moved to LA and was homeless, I had to wait 4 hours just to get antibiotics for a UTI. People with 2 jobs and 3 kids don't have time”

Lauren Rankin · 12:34 AM

Everyone has the right to bodily autonomy and to respect.

Katie Klabusich · 12:35 AM

YES, @E. that's a huge problem. I was talking about that on Hal Sparks' show this weekend. The ACA did a lot to reform health insurance, but people still have to have access to an actual doctor and healthy food. That definitely affects marginalized

Katie Klabusich · 12:35 AM

groups disproportionately.

Katie Klabusich · 12:35 AM

Like most things. The selfie thing was a good example of agency being taken away and having others determine what "healthy" or "pretty" is.

Lauren Rankin · 12:36 AM

Right, exactly.

Lauren Rankin · 12:36 AM

We all have the right to determine our own lives and to express ourself in the way that we want, as long as we aren't hurting anyone else.

Lauren Rankin · 12:37 AM

Selfies can be empowering, they can be silly, they can be a form of resistance. They are just another type of expression, only with your face, with your body.

Lauren Rankin · 12:37 AM

And that's really brave, to put your body and face out there, into the world. You're saying: this is me. This is who I am. This is how I look.

Katie Klabusich · 12:37 AM

Agreed. I think that was the most amazing part of Katie and Jamie's hashtag convo -- the pictures flying through my TL were beautiful and different.

Katie Klabusich · 12:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“social media gave me access to clean eating, support, healthy body image, and ways I can be healthier.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

Good point, Jessica -- social media can give people an outlet to post things and also a way to connect to other people who LOOK LIKE YOU or dig you or get you.

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

People who feel like they don't see themselves reflected in their surroundings can find people who they respond to and who respond to them.

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

Uh oh…I'm getting all Pollyanna about the internet again. ;)

Lauren Rankin · 12:39 AM

Social media is really a double-edged sword for women, though. It can open you up to some incredible activists, to new ways of thinking. But it also opens you up to a wave of abuse, to continual anxiety.

Katie Klabusich · 12:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“That ties into the selfies as well. When I was a personal trainer, I encouraged my clients to send me and to post pictures of themselves b/c it's empowering to see your hard work pay off”

Katie Klabusich · 12:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Yes, Eleanor! It gives me great pleasure to see my results.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:40 AM

Agreed. Which is another reason having someone tell me what feminism looks like was frustrating for me.

Katie Klabusich · 12:40 AM

I literally responded by saying "Who are you to tell me what I'm supposed to look like?" or what anyone is supposed to look like?

Katie Klabusich · 12:41 AM

Shouldn't any female writer (especially a professed feminist) know the kind of retaliation women deal with online?

Katie Klabusich · 12:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/duck-face”

Katie Klabusich · 12:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“My FAVORITE hashtag that came out of Feminist Selfie was #duckfaceagainstpatriarchy”

Lauren Rankin · 12:42 AM

Definitely, and I'm sure Erin Gloria Ryan has done some reflection since that piece was posted. To her credit, she engaged with some of the critiques.

Katie Klabusich · 12:42 AM

Has she written a follow up? I didn't see it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Lauren Rankin · 12:42 AM

I never understood why people hate duck face so much until I realized it's because girls and women do it as a means of having fun. Then, it made sense.

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

Ha!

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Honestly, if people want to post pictures of keg stands, I think duck face is fine. I don't personally like it but hey, if it makes them happy, go for it”

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

I have a personal response to it because my "best friend" in college was a notorious duck facer.

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

She turned out not to be so great. I'm aware that I have a bias. ;

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

;)

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“I think pop culture has bigger issues than duck facing.”

Lauren Rankin · 12:44 AM

Honestly, that's the thing -- sometimes selfies are just silly and fun. Sometimes we just want to be silly and have fun. Not everything is a statement. Not everything has to be a radical feminist act.

Katie Klabusich · 12:44 AM

THANK YOU

Katie Klabusich · 12:44 AM

I mean, damn.

Katie Klabusich · 12:44 AM

That's the other thing.

Katie Klabusich · 12:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Ha, Katie! Yeah, I know of more than a handful of people who do duck face that I don't like, but I try to check myself before I write everyone who duck faces off as a vapid ignoramous”

Katie Klabusich · 12:45 AM

The anti selfie piece was SO committed to convincing people the whole genre (who knew it was a genre??) was awful and injurious. And I thought...

Katie Klabusich · 12:45 AM

…my selfies are all ridiculous. Like on purpose.

Lauren Rankin · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“That's what irritates me the most. Why can't you just own up to your mistake? Why do some feminists resist self reflection and admitting you took a very one sided opinion.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Eleanor, i agree with you, there are bigger problems. But duck facing is a symptom. I think the implication is that it DOESN'T make them happy to post selfies.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“And even if they're not silly on purpose - do they need to be? Do they need to be silly to be OK?”

Katie Klabusich · 12:46 AM

Self reflection is hard. Truly engaging means listening. A lot of people are bad at it; we don't really teach listening as a skill around here any more.

Lauren Rankin · 12:46 AM

YES, Jessica. It's imperative that we own our mistakes, because we will make them. We will perpetuate harm. We will erase someone. The best we can do is apologize, commit to doing better, and make genuine changes.

Katie Klabusich · 12:46 AM

(another good time to plug Tawkers….)

Katie Klabusich · 12:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Do people even duckface for realsies anymore?”

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

Eleanor makes a good point -- who cares if they're intentionally silly? Lots of unintentionally silly things turn out to be fantastic.

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“That implication is dangerous tho. Like with my PT clients. They were STOKED to post pictures of themselves in mirrors in a bikini or in smaller jeans.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“They didn't do it b/c they needed saving or were crying for help. They did it b/c they were proud”

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“i knew there was a reason i liked you guys”

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“That's also true, Eleanor. I do fitness ed, too, and that is a major motivator for people - the comparison pics.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

Can I just say, I really dig this conversation.

Lauren Rankin · 12:48 AM

Why yes, yes you can say that.

Katie Klabusich · 12:48 AM

Haha. I have to post something from the FB event page that I think is really empowering.

Katie Klabusich · 12:49 AM

I don't know if she was able to come, but Jolene posted this earlier in the week: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=324592494345369&set=gm.234038060096408&type=1&theater

Katie Klabusich · 12:49 AM

She said she made the graphic from photos she didn't necessarily love of herself. It was her way of taking back the images and the times in her life when they were photographed.

Lauren Rankin · 12:50 AM

That's lovely.

Katie Klabusich · 12:50 AM

I thought so too. She made selfie art!

Lauren Rankin · 12:50 AM

Aura Bogado tweeted something that I thought was so brilliant -- that she liked selfies because so did Frieda Kahlo.

Katie Klabusich · 12:50 AM

Oh yes!!

Lauren Rankin · 12:50 AM

And that's it -- selfies can be a form of artistic expression.

Katie Klabusich · 12:51 AM

I screen grabbed it. So amazing.

Katie Klabusich · 12:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Some of my clients were the same way. They wanted me to yell and tell them they weren't pushing hard enough. Some people work better in that environment.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:51 AM

@E -- that's all about knowing yourself, right?

Lauren Rankin · 12:51 AM

By the way, everyone should be following Aura Bogado on twitter and reading her work - @aurabogado

Katie Klabusich · 12:51 AM

Agreed.

Katie Klabusich · 12:51 AM

Great reminder….with ten minutes left, tell everybody (before I forget) where they can follow and read you, Lauren!

Katie Klabusich · 12:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I am a teacher and a tutor as my main job, and I have kids that I HAVE to push. I teach special ed, and I definitely push those kids, because learned helplessness is a HUGE barrier. I think a lot of adults HAVE and WANT to be pushed.”

Katie Klabusich · 12:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Absolutely. Agree with Rebecca on that as well. Know yourself. Know how you work best and how you can feel and be your best.”

Lauren Rankin · 12:52 AM

Oh! Well, I'm on twitter (@laurenarankin), so you can definitely find me there.

Katie Klabusich · 12:52 AM

@E&R -- and demand those things that make you feel and work at your best level!

Lauren Rankin · 12:52 AM

I'm a freelance writer, so my work appears in a bunch of places, but I appear at RH Reality Check fairly frequently, I've been at The Frisky, Talking Points Memo, TruthOut, and I have a piece coming out at Salon in the next week.

Katie Klabusich · 12:53 AM

So, basically, you're everywhere.

Katie Klabusich · 12:53 AM

;)

Lauren Rankin · 12:53 AM

Ha! Hardly.

Katie Klabusich · 12:53 AM

She's a great twitter follow -- that's how we became friends. Always engaging, always informative.

Katie Klabusich · 12:53 AM

And occasionally silly

Lauren Rankin · 12:54 AM

I am occasionally silly, it's true. But yeah, I tweet a lot about feminism and intersectional stuff.

Lauren Rankin · 12:54 AM

I follow some incredible people, too. Twitter can connect you to amazing activists and brilliant writers.

Katie Klabusich · 12:54 AM

Yep, you're a great resource and do an amazing job at explaining the academic side of feminism and inclusion.

Katie Klabusich · 12:55 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Thanks for everyone who participated! Thanks Katie and Lauren for putting this together!”

Katie Klabusich · 12:55 AM

It's true. It can be cat videos and coffee memes, or you can connect to people. Thanks to everyone who engaged Lauren and I ahead of the Tawk. It was a good conversation & I hope it rolls back over to that medium after this!

Lauren Rankin · 12:55 AM

That's so nice, I try! I mess up sometimes, but it's what we do once we mess up that really defines us.

Katie Klabusich · 12:55 AM

No one is perfect.

Lauren Rankin · 12:56 AM

Correction: no one but Kerry Washington is perfect.

Katie Klabusich · 12:56 AM

If you were perfect you'd be some sort of bot of obnoxiousness.

Katie Klabusich · 12:56 AM

Hahahaha! Truth.

Katie Klabusich · 12:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“SPeaking of selfies as art, there was recently a Spanish artist who had a home birth and photographed herself pregnant, of course, and then immediately after the birth, still connected to the baby, holding her. THAT was a powerful feminist piece.”

Lauren Rankin · 12:56 AM

Thanks for having me, Katie, and for everyone else for the discussion. I appreciate it!

Katie Klabusich · 12:57 AM

I hope you'll come back next time you've got a piece/topic you think needs chatting up!

Lauren Rankin · 12:57 AM

I'd love to.

Katie Klabusich · 12:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“thank you katie and lauren. has been a real eye opener and,well, you've given me a kick up the arse that i needed!”

Katie Klabusich · 12:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Thanks for the discussion. :)”

Katie Klabusich · 12:58 AM

Awesome! I always put a FB event page up ahead of time, so anyone who follows me here at Tawkers can always get more info on the topic or post questions/comments ahead there.

Katie Klabusich · 12:59 AM

This is a good discussion ahead of Thanksgiving for those of us with challenging families. Don't forget everybody -- you are amazing. So show up as yourself.

Lauren Rankin · 12:59 AM

That's why my Thanksgiving is just me, my boyfriend, and our dog.

Katie Klabusich · 12:59 AM

….and keep your smart phone under your seat for affirmation from your social media family if you need it. ;)

Katie Klabusich · 1:00 AM

The family you choose!

Lauren Rankin · 1:00 AM

Best of luck to all of you brave souls navigating holiday craziness!

Katie Klabusich · 1:00 AM

Yes, HAPPY THANKSGIVING! Be well.

Katie Klabusich · 1:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Eleanor Goldfield

“Ha! I'll be hanging out with a bunch of musicians, bi-sexuals, lesbians and all around feminists. So if anyone needs a group phone call to a right wing family member, just let us know :)”

Forum · 77

Forum· 77 comments

168 visitors

Tawkers AdminNov 24, 2013, 1:07 AM★ Spotlighted

Welcome to the Forum! To get involved, click "Who's Here" and then FOLLOW people.

Tawkers AdminNov 24, 2013, 1:07 AM★ Spotlighted

Once 25 people gather in the audience, a comment needs at least one LIKE to become visible to the two Hosts and anyone not following them. So LIKE the comments you want everyone to see!

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 26, 2013, 10:06 PM★ Spotlighted

I think "cry for help" seems like a way to categorize it easily. I don't think it's that cut and dry. I don't mind seeing selfies. What's the difference who took the picture? I know lots of overly vain people who post images they didn't take.

Blake IanNov 26, 2013, 11:44 PM

I think there are selfies, and there are "cry for help" selfies. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Blake IanNov 26, 2013, 11:44 PM★ Spotlighted

So now that I just read Eleanor's comment, I guess what I meant to say is "I agree with Eleanor"

Lucy DyerNov 26, 2013, 11:59 PM

thank god i am bad at taking selfies,is what i say.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:04 AM★ Spotlighted

Could that also be a case of people not understanding what feminism actually is?

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:06 AM★ Spotlighted

Where is that line drawn? Or more importantly, why is there a line? Shouldn't is just be, feminism is good. Whatever that supposed feminism is, isn't

Lucy DyerNov 27, 2013, 12:06 AM★ Spotlighted

i hate labels. why can't you just be yourself?

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:08 AM★ Spotlighted

Katie and I spoke about that - feminists are supposed to be unattractive activists that burn bras and hate men...there's a big problem with the pop-culture feminist paradigm

Lucy DyerNov 27, 2013, 12:09 AM

but someone,anyone,can put a so-called label on you - what if you didnt want that label? why should you change who you are just to fit a label? isnt that just making everyone feel "good"?

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:10 AM★ Spotlighted

But we can't really help our "privelege." I had nothing to do with my parents being white, or me being straight. I don't think my stance is any less viable simply b/c of that

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Here's the thing. The writer- Erin Gloris Ryan, is quite well known in mainstream feminism. She knew exactly what she was posting.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:13 AM★ Spotlighted

I absolutely agree with that. But I do feel that our voices should be heard as well, equally. Which is the idea behind feminism - being equal, not better than men, but equal.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:13 AM★ Spotlighted

Cry for Help is what gets me. Who are you to say what is or isn't a positive experience? As someone who struggled with her weight issues, I am disgusted with the idea that my type of empowerment isn't good enough.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:14 AM★ Spotlighted

True, but like you said, we can help be a medium for the "unheard" voices

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:14 AM★ Spotlighted

We can interface with women of color, lesbians, trans sexuals and make sure that they are heard

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:15 AM★ Spotlighted

Which is great as being an ally, but we have to make sure we aren't making the spotlight turn to us and away from marginalized groups' voices.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:16 AM

If you have people teasing you or making you feel badly about a picture, then you have shitty friends.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:17 AM★ Spotlighted

I think the selfie that Katie posted on FB of Meryl Streep and Hilary Clinton was great

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:17 AM★ Spotlighted

Are they "cries for help?"

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:18 AM★ Spotlighted

Lauren, I wasn't either until I learned how to do it. Now it is a source of reflection on my journey to a healthy body image. That's my personal feeling on my own selfies.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:19 AM★ Spotlighted

Exactly. And I think that's the problem with mainstream pop culture. It's not even a slightly balanced microcosm of real people, real women.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:20 AM★ Spotlighted

YES! Lauren. Critical self-analysis and analysis of structures that encourage patriarchy are what the focus should be.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:20 AM★ Spotlighted

"Mean Girl Feminism"

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:22 AM★ Spotlighted

Another interesting thing with contraception is how much of Europe uses the IUD method - non hormonal, lasts for 10 years. Here it isn't recommended b/c pharmaceutical companies can't make bank off of it. It's barely talked about as an option

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:23 AM★ Spotlighted

Ha - nice! I got mine last January :)

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:24 AM★ Spotlighted

Obese is one of the worst words.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:24 AM★ Spotlighted

I don't know that it's a bad word. Obesity is a serious problem in this country

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:25 AM★ Spotlighted

I mean real obesity, not normal weight

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:25 AM★ Spotlighted

I was "Morbidly Obese" for several years. It has damaging effects.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:25 AM★ Spotlighted

What would be a good word to describe people in that category, legitimately in that category?

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:26 AM★ Spotlighted

I'm not talking about medical use. I'm talking about doctors fat-shaming me. Using it to scare me into weight loss.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:27 AM★ Spotlighted

I was obese as a child. Truly and honestly obese. And that did push me to be healthy b/c I learned about the risks attached to that. It shouldn't be thrown around like it's meaningless but I don't think it's medically bad

Lucy DyerNov 27, 2013, 12:27 AM★ Spotlighted

can i stop crying now? this is bringing way too many memories. none good

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:27 AM★ Spotlighted

I can know I am the medical terms without doctors using it to shame me into weight loss. Using positive words and helping people with eating disorders is key. There are better ways. Sorry if this is triggering for anyone.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:28 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks Katie. It's been a crap week. I'm ok. :)

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:30 AM★ Spotlighted

What do you think would be a better way of letting overweight people know they need to live a healthy lifestyle?

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:31 AM★ Spotlighted

@ Eleanor- more proactive programs- less stigma, access to healthy foods. There's a great article on Cracked (of all places) If you all wouldn't mind me posting. It's about being poor.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:32 AM★ Spotlighted

I saw that one! It's a great article!

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:33 AM★ Spotlighted

The problem is also access to healthcare. I needed to be told by a doctor that I was really overweight. When I first moved to LA and was homeless, I had to wait 4 hours just to get antibiotics for a UTI. People with 2 jobs and 3 kids don't have time

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:33 AM★ Spotlighted

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:33 AM

Ugh, hope that works. I hate 1,000 inch links.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:33 AM

But Lauren, isn't it a doctors job to tell people how to be healthy? In that vein, if a doctor can't tell someone how to treat their bodies, should they not tell them they should stop smoking?

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:34 AM

Yes, but there are more issues that are food related than smoking. It should be treated as an addiction in some cases. But we all know how addictions are "treated" in the US.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:36 AM

Healthy People 2020 is a good campaign to look into. They look at disparities in areas like healthcare and access.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:37 AM★ Spotlighted

social media gave me access to clean eating, support, healthy body image, and ways I can be healthier.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:39 AM★ Spotlighted

That ties into the selfies as well. When I was a personal trainer, I encouraged my clients to send me and to post pictures of themselves b/c it's empowering to see your hard work pay off

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:40 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes, Eleanor! It gives me great pleasure to see my results.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:40 AM

And every now and then someone would post, well, she's still fat. And then I would unleash the hounds of hell on them, which is also empowering

Blake IanNov 27, 2013, 12:41 AM

sorry I had to run out, but did you discuss the epidemic that is "DUCK FACE!" ???

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:41 AM★ Spotlighted

My FAVORITE hashtag that came out of Feminist Selfie was #duckfaceagainstpatriarchy

Blake IanNov 27, 2013, 12:42 AM★ Spotlighted

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/duck-face

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:42 AM

She engaged with people with lots of followers. Not a fan.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:43 AM★ Spotlighted

Honestly, if people want to post pictures of keg stands, I think duck face is fine. I don't personally like it but hey, if it makes them happy, go for it

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:43 AM

She didn't write anything. Self reflection is hard.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:43 AM★ Spotlighted

I think pop culture has bigger issues than duck facing.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:44 AM★ Spotlighted

Ha, Katie! Yeah, I know of more than a handful of people who do duck face that I don't like, but I try to check myself before I write everyone who duck faces off as a vapid ignoramous

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:44 AM★ Spotlighted

That's what irritates me the most. Why can't you just own up to your mistake? Why do some feminists resist self reflection and admitting you took a very one sided opinion.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 27, 2013, 12:45 AM★ Spotlighted

Eleanor, i agree with you, there are bigger problems. But duck facing is a symptom. I think the implication is that it DOESN'T make them happy to post selfies.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:45 AM★ Spotlighted

And even if they're not silly on purpose - do they need to be? Do they need to be silly to be OK?

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:46 AM★ Spotlighted

That implication is dangerous tho. Like with my PT clients. They were STOKED to post pictures of themselves in mirrors in a bikini or in smaller jeans.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:46 AM★ Spotlighted

Do people even duckface for realsies anymore?

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

They didn't do it b/c they needed saving or were crying for help. They did it b/c they were proud

Lucy DyerNov 27, 2013, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

i knew there was a reason i liked you guys

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 27, 2013, 12:47 AM★ Spotlighted

That's also true, Eleanor. I do fitness ed, too, and that is a major motivator for people - the comparison pics.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:47 AM

That's what I mean about empowering health positively, Eleanor! My wellness coach is so good at positive language.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:48 AM

Absolutely. But I also know that it works differently for different people. Now that I work with artists, some of teh people I produce, including my own guitarist won't play better unless I tell him it's not good enough.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:49 AM★ Spotlighted

Some of my clients were the same way. They wanted me to yell and tell them they weren't pushing hard enough. Some people work better in that environment.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 27, 2013, 12:51 AM★ Spotlighted

I am a teacher and a tutor as my main job, and I have kids that I HAVE to push. I teach special ed, and I definitely push those kids, because learned helplessness is a HUGE barrier. I think a lot of adults HAVE and WANT to be pushed.

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 12:51 AM★ Spotlighted

Absolutely. Agree with Rebecca on that as well. Know yourself. Know how you work best and how you can feel and be your best.

Jessica OlivaNov 27, 2013, 12:55 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks for everyone who participated! Thanks Katie and Lauren for putting this together!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 27, 2013, 12:55 AM★ Spotlighted

SPeaking of selfies as art, there was recently a Spanish artist who had a home birth and photographed herself pregnant, of course, and then immediately after the birth, still connected to the baby, holding her. THAT was a powerful feminist piece.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 27, 2013, 12:57 AM

http://chrisnolan.ca/2013/10/06/i-open-i-transform-i-bleed-i-scream-and-i-smile/

Lucy DyerNov 27, 2013, 12:57 AM★ Spotlighted

thank you katie and lauren. has been a real eye opener and,well, you've given me a kick up the arse that i needed!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 27, 2013, 12:57 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks for the discussion. :)

Eleanor GoldfieldNov 27, 2013, 1:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Ha! I'll be hanging out with a bunch of musicians, bi-sexuals, lesbians and all around feminists. So if anyone needs a group phone call to a right wing family member, just let us know :)