Melanie Berliet

Host

Is Anyone Welcome On The Internet?

Apr 23, 2014·41 visitors

Kayt Sukel

Cohost

Stage· 221 messages

Apr 23, 2014

Does online anonymity mostly empower truth telling, or mostly encourage people to act like assholes? There's a fine line between providing constructive criticism and being downright rude, but is there anything we can do to curb bullying on the web without trampling on people's First Amendment rights? Kayt Sukel and Mélanie Berliet discuss their firsthand experiences with internet backlash, and address why women seem to be targeted by online haters more than men.

Kayt Sukel · 4:59 PM

Hello!

Melanie Berliet · 4:59 PM

Thank you so much for tuning in

Kayt Sukel · 4:59 PM

Hello!

Kayt Sukel · 4:59 PM

Hello!

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

And, yes, I am repeating myself...apparently.

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

Now fixed.

Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM

We're here to chat about online haters. Kayt, what's the most offensive response you've received to your work from an anonymous commentor?

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

I've gotten a couple rape threats myself. But I think the worst was one about how I was totally going to fuck my kid up.

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

That one was fun.

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

What about you?

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

Oh wow. That is out of hand. And as a general policy do you choose to respond?

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

It's funny -- Mary Elizabeth Williams, a writer for Salon, once posted a photo on Twitter of her computer monitor.

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

It was just the corner and it had a sticky note on it that said, "NEVER READ THE COMMENTS."

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

I'd say the series of death threats I received from one angry reader listing an actual old address of mine was most upsetting

Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM

At first, I read all the comments and I responded to people. But these days, especially on the more controversial pieces, I don't even look to see what people have said.

Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM

Ack. I might have reported that one.

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

I like that post-it idea. The sad thing is that we miss out on the constructive comments as a result

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

That is true. But, I think, when there is that kind of hate mixed in, you can't pay attention to the good comments.

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

You get stuck on all the vitriol.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

exactly. i agree wholeheartedly that it's foremost important to self protect, whatever it takes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

But here's another question: what's the worst anonymous comment you've ever left on a piece?

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

I've left very few comments in my day. And usually I'm only driven to comment when I'm pleased with someone's work

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

Big philosophical question: why is it so much easier to attack the person over the work?

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

Very good questions.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Same here. I'm not really a commenter. But I have called someone a bully in a comments section before. I think that's as caustic as I get.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Mostly because I think there is a lot of value in online discourse, and learning about the position of someone who disagrees with me

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

But there's nothing to learn when the rebuttal is, "You're fucking ugly," or "I wouldn't even rape you with some other guy's dick."

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

Maybe it's an issue of a reader not wanting to accept that the ideas in the work are at all worthy of addressing. Maybe it's just easier

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

I wonder, however, especially with immersive journalism...as so many of us become part of the story, whether that welcomes more of the vitriol.

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

A very good point. When you insert yourself into a story, you leave yourself more vulnerable to attack.

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

What is the story that got you some of the worst responses?

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

I would say the story I wrote about sugar daddy dating for vanity fair.

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/05/seeking-arrangement-201005

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

That was a great story!

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Or, more recently, an essay I wrote about falling in love with a married man

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

http://thoughtcatalog.com/melanie-berliet/2014/02/i-fell-in-love-with-a-married-guy-and-im-not-really-into-apologizing-for-it/

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

How about you, Kayt?

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

That was a good one, too.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

I got a lot of hate for a CNN piece I wrote about why I donated an orgasm to science.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Ah yes!

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/27/why-i-orgasmed-in-an-mri-scanner/

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

A great story too!

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

Apparently, there's a whole section of the comments debating whether I'm attractive or not

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

That's just so irrelevant

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

But then I got a lot of flack for an essay I wrote about having a preemie: http://magazine.nd.edu/news/9771-the-lonely-mother/

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

It drives me crazy

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

Really??? I would think people would be grateful to you for sharing that experience.

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

Did they blame you for some reason?

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

Some people were, I think. But I got a few emails about how, when my son read that when he was older, it would hurt him

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

It's worth asking also why women are the targets of internet trolling more than men

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Some things resonate with people...in odd ways

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

why do female writers inspire more vitriol?

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Definitely...http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Amanda Hess talked about some of it in that brilliant Pacific Standard piece.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

I loved her piece. You pointed it out to me Kayt, so thank you for that.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

I have a friend who is a troll.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

According to a 2005 report by the Pew Research Center, which has been tracking the online lives of Americans for more than a decade, women and men have been logging on in equal numbers since 2000, but...

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

He has been for years...used to go on IRC channels and bully poeple.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

And if you ask him why, he says it's just fun.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

...the vilest communications are still disproportionately lobbed at women. (from the PS piece)

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

When I asked about men vs. women, he says women are more willing to engage. I've been thinking about that a lot.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

Really? is he a nice guy IRL?

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

hmmmmm. that is definitely interesting.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

He is a nice guy IRL, actually. He doesn't consider the Internet "real," so he doesn't see his "devil's advocacy" as bullying.

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

the old playground rule that if you react to a bully, they're more likely to continue the behavior holds true!

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

I think that is true.

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

that's interesting

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

Has he ever bullied you onlien?

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

After the Hess piece came out, I started asking some of my writer friends if they read/respond to the comments.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

As far as I know, he has not...but I think he knows I might figure it out.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

I've always been a comment avoider. How about your other contacts?

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

And most of the males said they never have. Most of the females said they had once and now stopped.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

Interesting.

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

So maybe your trolling friend is correct that women are just more likely to engage

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

But back to your question of why women get more evil...I think it goes back to the outdated notion that women aren't supposed to have an opinion that their Dad or husband didn't give them.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

So people are still uncomfortable with the idea of women having thoughts and opinions

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

Not to mention defending those opinions...

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

Ah right. To defend one's opinion is yet more offensive in a woman!

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

And when you consider that some of the best writing out there is honest--and often challenges the status quo--it makes people uncomfortable.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

Although, another interesting thing that came out of my talks with other writers is that many of the women writers I talked to said some of the nastiest comments came from other women.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

And that was definitely the case with my preemie essay.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

yes. people are uncomfortable with anything that threatens their idea of "normal"

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

As well as an essay I wrote about planning my first husband's funeral: http://kaytsukel.com/2008/11/widow-for-a-day-the-boston-globe-magazine-16-november-2008.html

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

Oh wow. I have to read that one.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

I'm guessing it is wonderfully honest

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

Do you think commenting should be allowed?

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

Crap, the link is broken.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

It surprises me sometimes that comments sections are the norm

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

You know...I go back and forth.

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

Again, I think there is so much to be gained from respectful debate.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

I wonder what percentage of all internet comments are useful or just not garbage

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

But then I see news stories of tragedies...

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

An acquaintance's son died in a car accident. He was speeding and hit a tree.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

agreed. but if people like you and me steer clear of the whole thing out of self protection, how frequently can those debates happen?

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

how do we filter the crap out? monitors?

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

And all of these commenters were saying things about how he deserved to die because he was speeding.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

Which, I'd wager, 95% of them had done a time or two.

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

that is terrible.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

I think it would be better to disallow anonymous commenting sometimes.

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

I concur.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

But, if someone has something constructive to say, but fears it would come back to them at work or home...

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

I think this is a really tough issue. For everyone to suss out.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

The Internet is such a great place to share and disseminate information. And to foster debate from a wide variety of individuals.

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

it really is. no one has come up with the answer yet

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

But the trade-off may be the online haters.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

magazines either allow or disallow commenting.i don't know of any that monitor the comments sections for trolling. do you?

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

certainly someone should be able to write some program that can detect blatant trolling and delete it, right?

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

I think it should be possible. I know some newspaper blogs allow the writers to monitor their own comments section.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

interesting

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

But then you have to have faith in the writer that they won't delete a valid yet critical comment.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

What do you think about the rise of all these gossip apps that encourage anonymous tipping: http://nym.ag/1h1u2rM

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

the apps have names like Whisper and Secret

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

and many people seem to be enraged by the threads

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

I remember my grandfather saying that you shouldn't say anything to anyone that you wouldn't want to hear repeated.

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

real life Gossip Girl!

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

I wish most of us, including users of those apps, would follow that advice.

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

It's tough again, though...because I think, at times, anonymity is important.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Deep Throat, gov't sources, etc.

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

but too many people feel disassociated from their online "life"

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

like your friend!

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

I see my online persona as an extension of my real self

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

But I think, at a certain point, if you are telling secrets, you should be willing to put your name to your words.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

We have so many ways to connect now it can seem as though you are even more disconnected.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

Even "safe" places can harbor trolls.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

I love writing for xojane.com -- but even there I've had some women make nasty, irrelevant comments about my pieces.

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

very good point. it's ugly out there!

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

But there's something about newspapers and other online forums shutting down comments altogether that worries me.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

according to a paper by Canadian researchers, internet trolls are in many cases "everyday sadists"

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

http://bit.ly/1gQR0TG

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

From a strict journalism standpoint, I think there are leads and other stories in there, for one.

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

But two, I think it's good to give some people a place to have their voice heard.

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

I believe the everyday sadist thing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

there are definitely people out there for whom the internet is an opportunity to flex their sadist muscle, i guess.

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

Here's the question: would we rather that person flex that muscle anonymously on the Internet? Or at his waitress at the local bar?

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

and maybe in many cases they're not doing so IRL as a result of being able to vent online....which might be a good thing

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

Exactly!

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

It's tricky.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

But I think the one thing we can all agree is that we don't need comments on ANY KIND OF PIECE about raping, murdering or hitting children.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

Definitely. I suppose fielding death threats over the internet is better than being tormented in person. Although I'm not sure. Both are tough

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

definitely not!

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

downright unacceptable

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

Well, if, as you said, your online persona is just an extension of your real one, how could it not be tough?

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

I think the other thing that Hess covered well in her Pacific Standard piece is that the law has not kept up with technology.

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

How do you tell a troll from a perp?

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

I don't know the answer to that.

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

that's definitely true about the law lagging

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

and I'm not sure it will ever keep up

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

Some states do have some statutes regarding online harassment...but it often comes too little, too late.

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

how do you feel Katy as a parent about this?

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

Kayt, sorry

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

because I'm sure your kids will have very active online lives soon enough if they don't already

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“I do have ideas about how to curb the bullying. One is to not let it get to a person, and another one is to have people stand up to people like that, last one is ignore them all together, never talk to them.”

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

They don't yet...we try hard to limit it, some of it for that reason.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

We keep saying, "You never know who is really on the other end of that device/text/email/etc."

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

yeah. that's a good message to ingrain especially BEFORE they're active online

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

it's also interesting to me how common trolling is on dating websites

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

I've only ever created online dating profiles for work related reasons but I know from many friends that a lot of the messages can be mostly upsetting

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

Oh jeez

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

The online dating is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

And I know that men are often trolled there as often as women are.

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

One girl had a very interesting way of handling what she considered inappropriate messages through online dating sites...

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

she started drawing them naked

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

http://slate.me/1fkCqna

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

(with small penises)

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

Kind of an awesome way to cope, I'd say!

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

Indeed!

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

And I know there are some online dating "cop" sites where you can talk about some of the creepers if you need to.

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

She explained that it was her way to get back at people.

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

I hate to sound like an old lady but I still think a lot of this just comes down to good, old-fashioned manners

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

I'm sure that new app Lulu, which encourages women to rank/rate guys they know, inspires a lot of trolling

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

Treat others as you'd like to be treated.

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

That's why I would have a hard time ever trusting such an app that relies on anonymous reviews

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

Don't say anything you will regret/wouldn't want repeated

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

Have you ever checked out Lulu?

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

I have not.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

But I could totally see women just wanted to get back at ex's there.

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

It's kind of hilarious, but also disturbing. The founder claims that it was intended to arm women with the information they should have about guys before considering them as mates

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

but i bet it's crowded with vindictive thoughts from angry exes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

Except...I think most of us have treated an ex a little badly at some point.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

Should any/every bad thing we've ever done in our lives define us as a potential mate now?

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

yeah. that's true. but publicly?

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

(Not to mention, the truth is always colored by your own perspective).

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

Perspective is everything

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

I have a hard time trusting a restaurant review online

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

There is definite power in anonymity. But sometimes, I think, we wield that power so wisely.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

anything that doesn't have a real person behind it is hard for me to place any faith in

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

We do not wield that power so wisely, rather.

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

Again, if it's important enough to take a stand, why wouldn't you want to associate your name with it?

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

I mean, a restaurant review shouldn't get in the way of your career/family.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

To quote that Slate article "I feel like, on the Internet, people can say whatever they want, and it doesn’t really matter."

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

(which is in line with your troll friend's opinion)

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

That's the question, I guess. Does it matter?

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

A couple years later, a bunch of dudes arguing about whether I'm ugly seems downright silly.

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

But at the time, I wondered, why aren't they this interested in the book?

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

It is definitely silly because you are unquestionably BEAUTIFUL!!!

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

I think they were interested in the book

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

and the fact that they were made them angry at you

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

but it's impossible to know, unfortunately!

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

That it is.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

So how do we wrap up a talk on trolls?

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

Except maybe your video: http://thoughtcatalog.com/melanie-berliet/2014/03/how-to-cope-with-the-shit-trolls-say-behind-that-cozy-veil-of-online-anonymity/

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

I conclude with, "Try not to be an ass hole."

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

Well I would say that after trying to own all the negativity within comments on my work through that video, I quickly went back to NOT reading them!

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

It was fun (but hard) to film that video.

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

And then maybe add, "Try to be relevant."

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

YES! Everyone should try their best not to be mean. Constructive criticism welcome

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

relevancy also welcome

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

Let the weight come from a carefully constructed argument, not idle threats.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

(Or not so idle threats).

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

sound advice. and if you have to vent, draft the comment but don't hit send/submit!

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

And to the people who think I'm a shitty wife, mother, person, whatever: I hereby invite you to stop reading my shit if you find it so terrible. Easy peasy!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

Ditto!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

Thank you all so much for reading/listening

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

We'll be back in two weeks!

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

Indeed!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

Oh and a definition of trolling courtesy of Urban Dictionary: Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

And once again, if you have any ideas for topics, hit us up! info@kaytsukel.com

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

yes please. melanie.berliet@gmail.com

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

Accurate definition. Definitely.

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

bye bye for now!

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

See you in two weeks!

Forum · 8

Forum· 8 comments

41 visitors

Tawkers AdminMar 28, 2014, 3:34 PM

Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!

Sam heartApr 7, 2014, 5:28 AM

Yes

kelly mackinApr 9, 2014, 3:41 PM

I am who I am at all times, I try and be honest. I think, those people who act like assholes are just that, assholes. It all depends on the person. Are women more targeted by online haters? I will try and pay attention for this now.

kelly mackinApr 9, 2014, 3:44 PM★ Spotlighted

I do have ideas about how to curb the bullying. One is to not let it get to a person, and another one is to have people stand up to people like that, last one is ignore them all together, never talk to them.

nick sharamApr 29, 2014, 2:44 AM

Hey

أأ

أحمد علي أمينJun 5, 2014, 10:11 PM

Hi hello I am ahmad

Kenya somethinJun 7, 2014, 4:45 AM

Lol

Johnathonfall thethirdAug 27, 2014, 1:06 AM

I have found online anonymity to be incredibly empowering for good. The folks being idiots are mostly being compensated. Ignore them all.