Melanie Berliet

Host

Is Equal Love a Libido Killer?

Feb 26, 2014·5,366 visitors

Kayt Sukel

Cohost

Stage· 194 messages

Feb 26, 2014

Everyone's talking about the impact of relationship parity on a couple's sex life. Could it be that the equal division of responsibilities inside and outside the home kills our libido? Are heterosexual men and women better off (in the bedroom, at least) focusing on their traditional, gender specific roles? Or is something missing from the dialogue? Kayt Sukel and Melanie Berliet will draw on their own experiences and related work in discussing sex, sexlessness, and longterm love.

Kayt Sukel · 6:00 PM

Hello, great big world!

Kayt Sukel · 6:01 PM

Thanks for coming out to talk about equal love and libido with Melanie and I.

Kayt Sukel · 6:01 PM

The inspiration for this talk came from Lori Gottlieb's controversial article in the NY Times magazine, "Does a More Equal Marriage Mean Less Sex?"

Melanie Berliet · 6:02 PM

Hello hello! Sorry about that. Technical difficulties

Melanie Berliet · 6:02 PM

http://nyti.ms/MuScU4

Melanie Berliet · 6:02 PM

(the link to the Lori Gottlieb piece above)

Kayt Sukel · 6:02 PM

And I have to say, I HATED it.

Kayt Sukel · 6:02 PM

What was your first impression, Melanie?

Melanie Berliet · 6:02 PM

I have to admit the same

Melanie Berliet · 6:02 PM

It felt as if her evidence was mostly anecdotal

Kayt Sukel · 6:03 PM

The article cites a lot of anecdotal stuff--and then one research study, published last year, that was based on data collected about 20 years ago.

Kayt Sukel · 6:03 PM

But I suppose the big thing that really annoyed me was that she never really defines what an "equal" relationship is.

Melanie Berliet · 6:03 PM

Right. She cites one study on Egalitarian housework and sexual frequency:nhttp://www.asanet.org/journals/ASR/Feb13ASRFeature.pdf which went against the logical assumption that as marriages improve, sex would too

Melanie Berliet · 6:03 PM

Agreed.

Melanie Berliet · 6:04 PM

How do you define equality within your relationship?

Kayt Sukel · 6:04 PM

It's funny--I just asked my husband this the other night.

Melanie Berliet · 6:04 PM

What did he say?

Kayt Sukel · 6:04 PM

He said that we both contributed equally to big decisions--and contributed in our own ways to our home and family.

Kayt Sukel · 6:04 PM

It was a pretty good answer.

Kayt Sukel · 6:05 PM

But, you know, things aren't "equal." We take more of a Marxist approach--each according to their ability, each according to their needs.

Melanie Berliet · 6:05 PM

I like that. I think it would be hard to come up with a definition of equality that applies to all relationships. Each one is so different.

Melanie Berliet · 6:05 PM

What got me going was the notion of "feminine chores"

Kayt Sukel · 6:05 PM

I have the flexibility to hang out with the kids after school and help them with homework.

Melanie Berliet · 6:05 PM

the ones listed were: folding laundry, cooking, vacuuming

Kayt Sukel · 6:05 PM

He does all the laundry on Sundays.

Kayt Sukel · 6:06 PM

And what happens when you outsource that kind of stuff?

Melanie Berliet · 6:06 PM

I think a Dyson is very masculine (if you want it to be) and my boyfriend loves vacuuming

Melanie Berliet · 6:06 PM

the whole notion of gender specific chores is odd to me.

Kayt Sukel · 6:07 PM

I mean, it goes in the face of Gottlieb's thesis. Since more traditional gender roles are required for more sexy-time, shouldn't my husband be jonesing for the cleaning ladies?

Kayt Sukel · 6:07 PM

Why is vacuuming considered feminine?

Melanie Berliet · 6:07 PM

hahaha

Kayt Sukel · 6:07 PM

Or trash masculine?

Melanie Berliet · 6:07 PM

exactly. And cooking! Most tops chefs are male, aren't they? If not most, certainly many.

Kayt Sukel · 6:07 PM

Practically speaking, both should be done when needed--regardless of who is around.

Melanie Berliet · 6:07 PM

Cooking is in no way feminine. At least not anymore

Kayt Sukel · 6:08 PM

I know I criticized Gottlieb for being anecdotal--but, in my experience, more shared household chores means more sex.

Kayt Sukel · 6:08 PM

My first marriage was more "traditional," if we define it Gottlieb's way.

Melanie Berliet · 6:08 PM

In our house, we tend to each do the chores that bug us the least. For me, that's laundry. For my boyfriend, it's dishes

Kayt Sukel · 6:09 PM

But that certainly didn't amp things up in the bedroom.

Melanie Berliet · 6:09 PM

I feel there is more respect and appreciation when everything is shared. Thus I'm more turned out.

Melanie Berliet · 6:09 PM

turned on, sorry

Kayt Sukel · 6:09 PM

Also, there's more time!

Melanie Berliet · 6:09 PM

But that said, i agree with the notion (pointed out by Dan Savage in Gottlieb's piece) that it's important to compartmentalize

Kayt Sukel · 6:10 PM

If I have to worry about all the "feminine" chores, plus work a full day, and then meet my husband at the door at 6pm with a martini in hand, how am I supposed to have enough energy for the boom boom?

Melanie Berliet · 6:10 PM

You have to leave the drudgery of cleaning duties behind and get down and dirty.

Kayt Sukel · 6:10 PM

But it's not just the drudgery of cleaning, you know? It's letting go of the drudgery of life.

Melanie Berliet · 6:10 PM

Totally. That's right.

Melanie Berliet · 6:11 PM

and making an effort to let go, even when you're exhausted

Kayt Sukel · 6:11 PM

The fact that you had a bad day, that your kids are acting up, that your cable company can't work out a deal with Fox so you can watch Sons of Anarchy.

Melanie Berliet · 6:11 PM

My buddy Dr. Just Garcia always tells me that you can't wait until you're both in the mood to get it on if you want to have sex regularly.

Kayt Sukel · 6:11 PM

On our last Tawk, we discussed how "letting go" is important to orgasm.

Kayt Sukel · 6:11 PM

I think letting go is also important to making sex a priority.

Melanie Berliet · 6:12 PM

Yes. And I think not everyone knows how to do that

Kayt Sukel · 6:12 PM

Here's another interesting question, from my perspective. Gottlieb reports that, even though "equal" couples weren't getting it on, they were happier.

Kayt Sukel · 6:12 PM

I hesitate to want to take too much away from 20 year old data but I find that interesting.

Kayt Sukel · 6:13 PM

As a society, we tend to either overemphasize or underemphasize sex. Are we doing that here? Is it possible, while we are struggling with kids and work and the house that maybe sex can be a lesser priority in a healthy relationship?

Melanie Berliet · 6:13 PM

Definitely. As Tracy Clark-Flory pointed out for Salon, Gottlieb nfailed to mention studies finding that more gender equality leads to more sex: http://www.salon.com/2011/08/09/equality_and_sex/

Melanie Berliet · 6:13 PM

and more sexual satisfaction: http://www.salon.com/2006/04/20/equality/

Melanie Berliet · 6:14 PM

It's also important to note that people's sex drives vary so dramatically

Kayt Sukel · 6:14 PM

That is very true. It's a hard thing to equalize--especially when you are talking about a self-report type questionnaire.

Melanie Berliet · 6:14 PM

It's so critical to be in a relationship with someone who's sex drive is similar to yours, otherwise one of you is more likely to be dissastisfied

Kayt Sukel · 6:15 PM

But sex drives wax and wane...for a variety of reasons.

Melanie Berliet · 6:15 PM

I wonder how many people take matching sex drives into consideration when dating

Melanie Berliet · 6:15 PM

that's a good point.

Melanie Berliet · 6:15 PM

you mean as we age?

Kayt Sukel · 6:15 PM

Maybe it should be a question on the Match.com questionnaire!

Melanie Berliet · 6:15 PM

it totally should be!

Melanie Berliet · 6:16 PM

What do you think about the whole concept of "lesbian bed death"?

Kayt Sukel · 6:16 PM

I like to have sex: a. As much as I can. b. At least 5-7 times a week. c. 2-5 times a week. d. Once a week. e. If I must.

Kayt Sukel · 6:16 PM

Sex drives wax and wane throughout the life span.

Kayt Sukel · 6:17 PM

Some of it is aging...some of it can be hormonal changes due to childbirth, birth control or disease.

Melanie Berliet · 6:17 PM

nice multiple choice!

Kayt Sukel · 6:17 PM

Some of those changes are environmental. If you are sleep-deprived because you are trying for a big promotion at work or because you have a 8 month old who won't sleep through the night, you might not be feeling like getting it on.

Melanie Berliet · 6:17 PM

Is sex drive something you thought about in considering a relationship with your longterm partner?

Melanie Berliet · 6:18 PM

Not just "is the sex good?" but "does he want it relatively as often as i do?"

Kayt Sukel · 6:18 PM

I do think having compatible sex drives is important, to an extent. But I think open and honest communication is even more important.

Kayt Sukel · 6:18 PM

Frequency does matter...because if one partner wants it that much more than the other, it's going to raise some conflict.

Kayt Sukel · 6:19 PM

But given that life has a way of being rather unsexy, if you can openly discuss those differences in desire, you'll probably be okay.

Kayt Sukel · 6:19 PM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“@Kayt - I think people find mention of sex on a dating site or app to automatically imply promiscuousness or even perversion... would you agree?”

Kayt Sukel · 6:19 PM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“I don't mean would you agree that it DOES imply that... I mean that most people think that”

Kayt Sukel · 6:19 PM

Mel, I'll get to lesbian bed death in a sec...

Melanie Berliet · 6:19 PM

Good point, Blake.

Kayt Sukel · 6:20 PM

Blake, I think that we, as a society, like to pretend that love isn't usually paired with more base desires.

Melanie Berliet · 6:20 PM

people still seem to think sex is a "dirty" word, in a bad way.

Kayt Sukel · 6:20 PM

For most people, joining a dating site is as much about getting laid as finding the one. Why not acknowledge that?

Melanie Berliet · 6:20 PM

And I do agree that women might be afraid to admit to wanting sex on a dating profile

Kayt Sukel · 6:21 PM

And is it promiscuous to want to have sex with a committed partner regularly?

Kayt Sukel · 6:21 PM

Mel, true. Some guys might be wary of it, too.

Melanie Berliet · 6:21 PM

in fact, New York Magazine recently interviewed four of the most desired people on OK Cupid and the most desired heterosexual woman had to change her profile because admitting that she was into "casual relationships" caused too many problems

Kayt Sukel · 6:21 PM

But OKCupid has this section where they ask people weird questions. About sex, religion, abortion, ex's, etc.

Kayt Sukel · 6:22 PM

And those kinds of questions, and seeing the answer, can help you narrow the pool.

Kayt Sukel · 6:22 PM

Seriously?

Melanie Berliet · 6:22 PM

Here's the piece in question: http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/02/okcupid-most-desired-people-in-new-york.html

Melanie Berliet · 6:23 PM

She received a major influx of "pervy" emails

Melanie Berliet · 6:23 PM

allegedly

Kayt Sukel · 6:23 PM

That raises an interesting point that goes back to Gottlieb's piece: how much of this is real and how much of this gender role stuff is not what we really want but what we've been taught that we're supposed to want?

Kayt Sukel · 6:23 PM

How much is "drilled in" about what is supposed to make us happy?

Melanie Berliet · 6:23 PM

right. the question of "sexual scripts"

Melanie Berliet · 6:24 PM

How we change what's drilled into us?

Kayt Sukel · 6:24 PM

I was doing an interview a few weeks ago and joked that I need a wife.

Melanie Berliet · 6:24 PM

Personally, I was raised Catholic and had some serious guilt issues associated with sex until early adulthood

Kayt Sukel · 6:24 PM

I've said something to that effect for years--that I need someone who take care of me and my house and the kids, etc., so I can do my work.

Melanie Berliet · 6:24 PM

Perhaps you just need an intern!

Kayt Sukel · 6:25 PM

My interview subject, having just heard me call and talk to the kids back home, joked that I have a "wife." My husband was holding down the fort while I was away. If I could only drop the sexual stereotypes, I'd be able to see that I didn't need...

Melanie Berliet · 6:25 PM

I know I could use an intern slash housekeeper

Kayt Sukel · 6:25 PM

a wife, I needed a partner.

Kayt Sukel · 6:25 PM

And that's what I have. And maybe that's how I should define an "equal" relationship.

Kayt Sukel · 6:25 PM

Someone who is going to work with you, changing roles as needed, to make life go smoothly.

Melanie Berliet · 6:25 PM

I think a good measure of equality in a relationship s willingness on both sides to do whatever needs to be done at any given time.

Kayt Sukel · 6:26 PM

And that's the kind of relationship that actually begets a lot of sex.

Melanie Berliet · 6:26 PM

To pick up whatever slack needs to be picked up—be it cleaning related or income earning related

Melanie Berliet · 6:26 PM

Yean. A true partnership is sexy.

Melanie Berliet · 6:26 PM

At least in my views.

Kayt Sukel · 6:26 PM

Forget the idea of a man doing the dishes being a turn-on. It's the man who is willing to pick up your slack when needed to make sure your needs, both together and apart, are met.

Melanie Berliet · 6:27 PM

Completely.

Kayt Sukel · 6:27 PM

As for "lesbian bed death," well...I know plenty of lesbian couples who do not suffer from it.

Melanie Berliet · 6:27 PM

Both parties need to let go of the traditional sexual scripts to do that on an ongoing basis.

Kayt Sukel · 6:28 PM

But, overall, the stats on long-term relationships make it seem like monogamy is killing the libido.

Melanie Berliet · 6:28 PM

Can you define it for us quickly?

Kayt Sukel · 6:28 PM

Ah, I hate the term but "lesbian bed death" is the idea that equal lesbian partnerships result in less sex.

Kayt Sukel · 6:28 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lana Jay

“my mom always says her life would be perfect if she had a wife.”

Kayt Sukel · 6:29 PM

Gottlieb uses the term to suggest because these are the most equal of relationships, in some senses, they are an example of how equality kills desire.

Melanie Berliet · 6:29 PM

No one ever says "my life would be perfect if I had a husband" huh

Kayt Sukel · 6:29 PM

HA!

Kayt Sukel · 6:29 PM

Actually, my life is pretty damn good since acquiring this one.

Melanie Berliet · 6:30 PM

That's sweet! In a way, the "i need a wife" thing might be considered empowering to females since the sentiment suggests that women do so much

Melanie Berliet · 6:30 PM

right?

Kayt Sukel · 6:30 PM

And, you know, they do.

Kayt Sukel · 6:30 PM

I'd be curious to see data on how much stay at home Dads are getting it.

Melanie Berliet · 6:30 PM

Maybe the husband and wife terms need to go

Melanie Berliet · 6:31 PM

aren't those terms rooted in really archaic ideas?

Melanie Berliet · 6:31 PM

like "master of the household" or something

Kayt Sukel · 6:31 PM

I think they are terms that have been around enough that they have a lot of stereotype wired into them.

Kayt Sukel · 6:31 PM

What does a wife do? She cooks, she cleans, she runs the household.

Melanie Berliet · 6:31 PM

I like "partners" so much better. But then business people might need to adopt a new term for each other

Kayt Sukel · 6:31 PM

And the husband? He brings home the bacon so the wife can fry it up in the pan.

Kayt Sukel · 6:32 PM

But I don't think that's the reality of most marriages anymore.

Kayt Sukel · 6:32 PM

Which sort of leads me to another of my annoyances with Gottlieb's article.

Kayt Sukel · 6:32 PM

It's an upper middle class partnership kind of scenario, you know?

Melanie Berliet · 6:32 PM

Get it all out!

Melanie Berliet · 6:33 PM

(On a side note, do you think her current partner is Mr. Good Enough?)

Kayt Sukel · 6:33 PM

If you and your spouse are both working multiple jobs, trying to do the best by your kids and still struggling, is how often you get it on really at the top of the list?

Kayt Sukel · 6:33 PM

HA! Gottlieb wrote a whole book on why you should settle for whatever man is around right now.

Kayt Sukel · 6:33 PM

I think it started with a New Yorker or NY Times magazine piece that pissed me off almost as much.

Melanie Berliet · 6:33 PM

You make a good point about priorities within the relationship, which are destined to change over time.

Kayt Sukel · 6:34 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Marry-Him-Case-Settling-Enough-ebook/dp/B0030CVPOA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393439647&sr=8-1&keywords=gottlieb+good+enough

Melanie Berliet · 6:34 PM

Did you ever read that book by Ayetlet Waldman about how she prioritizes her relationship with her husband (and presumably, having sex with him) over her kids?

Kayt Sukel · 6:34 PM

I did -- it was a Modern Love piece, too.

Melanie Berliet · 6:35 PM

Guess the Equal Marriage Equals Libido Killer book is on its way....

Kayt Sukel · 6:35 PM

I remember she had a line about how she could have another child, she could never have another husband.

Melanie Berliet · 6:35 PM

What do you think about Waldman's premise?

Kayt Sukel · 6:35 PM

I think every couple, every family has priorities.

Melanie Berliet · 6:35 PM

I'm not a mother, so it's hard for me to respond

Kayt Sukel · 6:35 PM

Sex may be one of them. And if so, you treat it like any other priority. You find a way to make it happen.

Melanie Berliet · 6:36 PM

Right. I think she refers to her children as her planets, while her husband is the sun within the universe of her life!

Kayt Sukel · 6:36 PM

I think your mileage may vary when it comes to how you feel about your kids vs. your partner.

Melanie Berliet · 6:36 PM

Yeah. I think a lot of people get caught up in the idea that making an effort to have sex takes away from sex.

Melanie Berliet · 6:36 PM

it shouldn't. at least, putting effort in doesn't have to mean it's not hot.

Kayt Sukel · 6:37 PM

I'm madly in love with my son. But I'm also pretty keen on having sex with my husband. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

Melanie Berliet · 6:37 PM

Good! That's encourage for would-be mothers like myself

Kayt Sukel · 6:37 PM

Life is effort. It doesn't mean you don't celebrate the successes just because you had to throw a little elbow grease into it.

Kayt Sukel · 6:38 PM

And, as couples and families, today, we have to schedule and work at everything. Why not add sex and date nights to the list?

Melanie Berliet · 6:39 PM

Also, I think it's important for people to embrace what might seem like relationship contradictions. Just because you want equality in a marriage day to day, doesn't mean you don't want to be submissive in the bedroom.

Kayt Sukel · 6:39 PM

I have a friend who is vehemently against date nights. She wants spontaneous sex--the other kind isn't genuine, according to her.

Melanie Berliet · 6:39 PM

How much sex is she having?

Kayt Sukel · 6:39 PM

My response was that I'd like to spontaneously pick up and travel to Bali. But my life doesn't necessarily support that right now either.

Kayt Sukel · 6:40 PM

She is not having very much sex at all. When you have three kids, spontaneity is kind of a pipe dream.

Melanie Berliet · 6:40 PM

Some of the best sex I've ever had started with me thinking that I didn't want it....you definitely don't need to be spontaneous to turn a partner on

Kayt Sukel · 6:40 PM

As I like to say, motherhood means never having to say you're spontaneous.

Melanie Berliet · 6:40 PM

ha! good note.

Kayt Sukel · 6:41 PM

We talk about what's "normal" so much when it comes to sex and relationships. I think, the one thing I've learned, both in life and while researching DIRTY MINDS, is that "normal" is a pretty big distribution.

Melanie Berliet · 6:41 PM

Yeah. Why do we even try to make sweeping statements about sex?

Kayt Sukel · 6:41 PM

And that's another problem I had with Gottlieb's piece. What's too much sex? What's too little?

Kayt Sukel · 6:42 PM

Is it really the "equality" of the relationship that results in less sex? Or is it the fact that the couple is handling work, kids, life, volunteer stuff, etc. that makes it less of a priority?

Melanie Berliet · 6:43 PM

Even Gottlieb had to note that her premise was based on a correlation and not causation!

Kayt Sukel · 6:43 PM

If we didn't make sweeping statements about sex (or parenting or work or balance), the New York Times magazine wouldn't have so many of these stories going viral.

Melanie Berliet · 6:43 PM

it's just too damn difficult to decipher which factors are leading couples to get it on and which factors might be slowing the down in the bedroom.

Melanie Berliet · 6:44 PM

HAHAHA. Great point about a sure-to-be viral story

Kayt Sukel · 6:44 PM

I think the real question that people in relationships should be asking themselves is (a) is my relationship giving me what I want/need? and (b) if not, can I discuss this openly with my partner so we can get to the root of the problem?

Melanie Berliet · 6:45 PM

That's a good prescription.

Melanie Berliet · 6:45 PM

It is all so personal

Melanie Berliet · 6:45 PM

With that wisdom, I think we should close things up for the day!

Kayt Sukel · 6:45 PM

Hypothetical: Would you rather have more mediocre sex or less really hot mind blowing sex?

Melanie Berliet · 6:45 PM

Hmmmmm. Tricky quesiton!

Melanie Berliet · 6:46 PM

One for the audience to ponder....

Kayt Sukel · 6:46 PM

Class, class, anyone?

Kayt Sukel · 6:46 PM

★ Spotlighted from Sasha A. Tcherevkoff

“Mind blowing over mediocre any day.”

Kayt Sukel · 6:47 PM

Sasha says mind blowing. And since other research says that more egalitarian relationships leads to more sexual satisfaction...maybe there is sometimes a trade-off between frequency and quality.

Kayt Sukel · 6:47 PM

And, perhaps, with that, we finish up. =)

Melanie Berliet · 6:47 PM

et voila! until next time. Thank you Kayt for being your awesome self:)

Kayt Sukel · 6:47 PM

Thank you! Always so much fun to chat with you!

Kayt Sukel · 6:48 PM

And y'all, we're going to be Demystifying BDSM in a couple weeks.

Kayt Sukel · 6:48 PM

Hope to see you there!

Forum · 8

Forum· 8 comments

5,366 visitors

Tawkers AdminFeb 19, 2014, 5:10 PM

Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!

Sasha A. TcherevkoffFeb 26, 2014, 1:33 PM

Very Excited for the this one today from 2 of my favorite authors @melanieberliet and @Kaytsukel

Blake IanFeb 26, 2014, 6:18 PM★ Spotlighted

@Kayt - I think people find mention of sex on a dating site or app to automatically imply promiscuousness or even perversion... would you agree?

Blake IanFeb 26, 2014, 6:19 PM★ Spotlighted

I don't mean would you agree that it DOES imply that... I mean that most people think that

Blake IanFeb 26, 2014, 6:21 PM

I agree completely. Clearly if you are looking for a romantic partner, you are looking to have sex. Other wise it would be a friend finding site.

Blake IanFeb 26, 2014, 6:22 PM

however, even thought I TOTALLY agree, I have to be honest and say that if I see a girl mention sex in a profile, Im going to thin she is promiscuous. Maybe its just been "drilled in". (pun intended)

Lana JayFeb 26, 2014, 6:28 PM★ Spotlighted

my mom always says her life would be perfect if she had a wife.

Sasha A. TcherevkoffFeb 26, 2014, 6:46 PM★ Spotlighted

Mind blowing over mediocre any day.