Lee Camp

Is Religion Evil?

Dec 10, 2013

Eleanor Goldfield
Stage· 143 messages
Dec 10, 2013

For the weekly Moment of Clarity Tawk we dissect the many sects of religion. Is it standing in the way of societal evolution?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:00 PM

Lee may be having some internet issues courtesy of the religious right but we'll get rolling and hope he can jump in
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:00 PM

So - the question, somewhat similar to that of Intelligence squared debate. Is religion good? or evil?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:01 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

Oh man...they got to him!

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:01 PM

Yep, seems so. At least for the moment
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:02 PM

I'm wondering - how many people watching or participating - which you can by giving a thumbs up to comments - are religious
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:03 PM

Don't be shy. The NSA already knows
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:04 PM

Sorry - mine cut out too for a moment....
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:04 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

Religion are for those seeking something.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:05 PM

Interesting. Although, I'm seeking something as well. And I'm very much an atheist
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:05 PM

To me, religion is for those who need something to lean on.
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:05 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jahba Himself

Religon is merely a control mechanism which preys upon the most primal fear of all; the fear of the unknown/death

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:05 PM

I do agree with that. The opiate of the masses, as it were
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:06 PM

Do atheists not have the same fear?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:06 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lauren DiGioia

I'm seeking truth, and I know the human race is notorious for making shit up, like the greatest story ever told.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:09 PM

We make shit up to explain things - all the way from tornadoes to just dying
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:09 PM

The existential idea of life being meaningless and having to give it meaning is scary to a lot of people.
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:09 PM

That being said - does that make religion evil? Or just a fairy tale?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:10 PM

By the way, Lee says the lord is sabotaging him
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:12 PM

I do love talking to myself but it's much more fun when everyone joins in. I know you're all opinionated
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:15 PM

There seem to be some widespread internet issues. I'm going to refresh and see what comes through
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:16 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

It's just me and Eleanor again in awkwardness...

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:16 PM

Haha - apparently so. I just saw a flood of messages so something is up
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:16 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

I belies there's some hidden truth to every fairy tale or some lesson to learn from it. People make religion evil. Religion in itself is just a belief system. You make of it what you want

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:16 PM

★ Spotlighted from Elizabeth Kerns

Do you think fairy tales are evil? I think there is bias here. Do you think hammers are evil? They can be used to build shelter or could be the no.1 homicide weapon used in the united states.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:17 PM

True but how was religion first made?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:17 PM

It is a control mechanism. Tell people what to believe and they will follow in line
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:17 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

Humans invented religions & religion, so it's up to us really.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:17 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

we invented religion and evil* sorry haha

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:18 PM

★ Spotlighted from TheBartons Page

Being a retired soldier and seeing christian vs muslim and the opposite I believe religion can be nothing but evil

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:18 PM

And all the conflicts in the world and world history that are sparked from my god vs. your god
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:19 PM

Going to the hammer comment - man didn't create religion to be useful like a hammer, however.
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:19 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

religion is just an avenue that evil people have exploited throughout history.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:20 PM

Lee says: so many people have died in the name of religion. Why would the lord create something that would kill so many people?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:21 PM

In that same vein, as Hitchens asked - why would he wait until 2000 years ago to do something proactive about it?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:21 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

when I see a super church, I just imagine christianity going extinct and us making it an indoor farm. but I'm a hopless optimist.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:21 PM

That would be awesome!
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:21 PM

Way better use of space
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:22 PM

Meanwhile, Lee is speaking through me...which makes me a prophet, I suppose
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:23 PM

Going back to the "inherently evil" argument. It seems the only way you could consider religion inherently good is if you believe that an inherently good deity created it
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:23 PM

Otherwise, it was created by men to control and dictate how people should live, more strictly and completely than a government
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:24 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

An inherently good deity wouldn't flood the earth in anger.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:24 PM

Particularly since a flood wouldn't hurt the evil fish or ducks
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:24 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

"Mr. Camp, you're being called to the web pulpit, paging Mr. Camp.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:24 PM

Apparently the lord has other plans for Lee. He's having mad internet issues
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:25 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

We have free will. My belief is we create our reality based on our perception of what should be.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:26 PM

But there is a reality regardless of what our perception is
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:27 PM

★ Spotlighted from Nenny Pallister

Being a pagan my religion is based on nature and the seasons Therefore Laurens comment has a lot of truth for me

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:27 PM

@Nenny - is that a religion or just paying attention to your surroundings?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:27 PM

Nature and the seasons are very real and tactile
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:27 PM

★ Spotlighted from Pyotr Drevacks

any religion? like scientology counts?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:28 PM

@Pyotr - I think so
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:28 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

Our reality is shaped by our beliefs so...wait...I feel like we are going around in circles like a merry go round...someone get me off! I'm getting dizzy!

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:28 PM

★ Spotlighted from Elizabeth Kerns

I think as religions are dying we are seeing more people becoming socially isolated. Other than religion, how do you think we can create good communities with many people with not much in common? We see more people paying for social contact like mu

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:29 PM

Is that really the case?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:29 PM

I was raised Jewish, like Lee but now we're both atheists.
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:29 PM

I'm far more social today than ever before
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:29 PM

Religion is not a dictation of social interaction
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:29 PM

It just means that you can socially interact with people who agree with you on a dude in the sky
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:29 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

scientology is about as much of a religion as star trek

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:29 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

except for the fact that Trekkies are far more realistic

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:30 PM

True - but is it any more ridiculous than Christianity?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:30 PM

Or have we just come to accept the other ones?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:30 PM

★ Spotlighted from Tawkers Admin

Tawkers robots are trying to communicate with Lee via telepathy to help him resolve his internet issues, in the meantime be sure to vote each other's comments UP so Eleanor sees them!

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:31 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

scientology is what tin foil hat wearers dream about when they become rich and famous.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:32 PM

Another interesting question, from Lee: can a global awakening take place if we get past religion?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:32 PM

I think it's keeping us from living in the now, appreciating that we have one go round and we need to make this pale blue dot as livable for everyone as possible
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:32 PM

as opposed to focusing on an afterlife
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:32 PM

★ Spotlighted from Pyotr Drevacks

doesnt the pope wear a stupid hat?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:32 PM

★ Spotlighted from Pyotr Drevacks

i mean, what makes it any different?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:33 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

We would still have football teams to argue over, political beliefs, etc... it may still be an 'us vs. them' even without religion...

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:34 PM

Very true, but football teams and politics are not based on the idea that the "other team" is evil. There is still debate, or games
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:34 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

Good question Lee...a global awakening will happen only when we decide that we are all connected and then we won't need religion.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:35 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

*blame corporate theocratic fascism

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:35 PM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony DeMeo

Jacob, how many football games have caused the murder of innocent thousands? religion as a business has some pretty piss poor quality control.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:36 PM

@Anthony - even if you count things like the soccer war, that's a phenomenon, not a regular occurrence
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:36 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

Oh some fans of a team or a political party would very much cry 'evil' of their opponents. I state that people are very much fanatics about what is 'theirs"...

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:38 PM

That's true but if we look at politics historically - compromise and debate have been cornerstones of healthy governments, and people have been more apt to overthrow regimes that weren't working in their favor. You don't see that with religion
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:38 PM

No one threatens to overthrow the pope
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:38 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

We take an odd personal ownership of the things we believe or even just prefer. Sadly, yes, religious zealotry seems to cause much more violence.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:38 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lisa Del Rey

Like someone had commented earlier where we need to find some common ground and so some rely on religion...atheism is also a religion...it's a belief in something. So when we all put our differences aside and realize that there is no separation...

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:38 PM

I often times prefer Hitchens' way of putting it: anti-theism as opposed to atheism
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:39 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

But, religion and politics are inherently connected. The US was the first non-theological constitution. We still expect our elected officials to have a religion.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:39 PM

We do, but we shouldn't. Thomas Jefferson was very direct in that.
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:39 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

Absolutely. I think it says something that Barney Frank came out at gay in 1987, but didn't come out as an atheist until after he retired last year.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:40 PM

Exactly. It's still considered to be a necessary point of personality
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:40 PM

Like you can't be a good person without it
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:41 PM

From Lee: how do you feel about these atheist churches that are popping up?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:42 PM

Is that not pushing atheism towards a religion as well, as opposed to a move away from organized religion?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:42 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

is expecting our politicains to have a religeon,because we want to see them in a "pure" light,as it were? that they are whiter than white....

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:42 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

That makes me so crazy when the opposite is true. If you need a stick and a carrot to do anything, those aren't morals. (The US isn't the only place that's true; it's true most places.)

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:42 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

I don't know enough information about any Atheist Church to have an opinion on that. Does anyone have a general explanation of such a place.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:43 PM

Completely agree, Katie
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:43 PM

And that's true worldwide.
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:44 PM

I'm speaking from a US perspective just b/c I'm currently here but having grown up in Sweden, religion is everywhere, in its same insidious mold, it's just less prevalent in Europe from what I've seen
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:44 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

i agree with eleanor,pushing these athesit churches on us is basically doing the same thing as any other religion...no?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:45 PM

★ Spotlighted from Pyotr Drevacks

atheism isn't a religion, i mean in it's self atheism means "without a god" there is no one to worship, why would there be a church?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:45 PM

Exactly @Pyotr
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:46 PM

http://www.alternet.org/belief/why-people-are-flocking-new-wave-secular-communities-atheist-churches?paging=off&current_page=1
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:46 PM

I agree with that completely. Here's an article on the atheist churches Lee just shared with me
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:46 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

The "churches" for atheists are designed to build communities that some think are lacking without religion. I've actually found more satisfying community without religion as a backbone. I have more in common with the people I associate with now.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:46 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

Exactly my question, Pyotr.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:46 PM

★ Spotlighted from Pyotr Drevacks

not believing in something doesn't mean you have to believe in something else

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:47 PM

I can see that about building community but why call them churches?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:47 PM

That's like having an "abortion clinic" to talk about why pro-life is best
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:48 PM

I think the point @Pyotr made is very important.
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:48 PM

There's this idea that if you don't believe in a God, you have to believe in something, anything
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:48 PM

But that void has to be filled
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:48 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

Agreed, @Pyotr -- Also, since when is having a lack of something in common a foundation for having actual things in common? (that was so twisted in the logic, even I have trouble following it…)

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:50 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

The idea that you must believe in something, anything, is really from a 'believers' stand point. I think it is just impossible for them to understand a lack of faith and belief...

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:50 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

plus everything needs to have a label of some kind. just so everyone knows what they are talking about and feels comfortable

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:50 PM

Yes, this social need for labels is a very important drive
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:51 PM

★ Spotlighted from Pyotr Drevacks

i think it is impossible for man to live without spirituality of some kind, but most mainstream religions have done the world as a whole organismo more evil than good

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:51 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

That so many people need the threat of punishment and the promise of reward to do anything (and I do mean anything) is terrifying to me.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:52 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jacob Heckler

So, is it the need for comfort, the societal need for a label, that is the actual evil?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:52 PM

I don't think that's evil. It's blindly believing and following an ideology that is in and of itself a force for mind control, power and greed
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:53 PM

Kind of like if you worshiped corporations
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:53 PM

I do think that the societal need for labels is ridiculous but not evil
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:53 PM

Katie's point of needing a reason to do good or an eternal detterent to not do evil is terrifying
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:54 PM

5 minutes left! Any more questions or comments, throw them out there
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:55 PM

Here's one from Lee: is being an atheist or anti religion and still celebrating holidays, such as Channukah or Christmas ok?
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:55 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

you could call Wall Street a church.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:55 PM

★ Spotlighted from Brett Schnaper

plenty of religions have no gods. please don't conflate theism with religion.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:56 PM

True, but all religions have strict rules based on belief structures - whether that be Buddhism or Norse mythology
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:57 PM

3 minutes left!
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:57 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

Yeah, it's that people can't make decisions on their own that does it for me. It let's people off the hook -- they don't have to think through things and aren't ultimately responsible for their beliefs.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:57 PM

Agreed. The idea that you follow a God or some pre-deteremined path without question
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:58 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

are you celebrating christmas because its religious because you are an atheist? or just because its a time when you can get drunk and have a day off work?

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:58 PM

I think it has more to do with tradition
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:58 PM

Appreciating it the way you'd appreciate a family heirloom
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:59 PM

★ Spotlighted from Brett Schnaper

Nah, no they don't Huge horking city dweller religions are like that, but it's very different for indigenous people, whose beliefe systems vary widely.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:59 PM

ANyone have any last minute questions? I'm on the phone with Lee as well if anyone wants to ask him a specific question
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 11:59 PM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

I think we need secular Christians the way we have secular Jews. I'd get back into it. Tree, food, friends, family? Yup. In for sure.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:00 AM

As far as indigenous religions go, I only know a little bit about them. However, I can say that it's not typically indigenous religions that destroy the world and create a mass of sheeple and trails of dead bodies
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:01 AM

Thanks everyone for joining in on the tawk! You can follow Lee and myself online and on twitter
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:01 AM

@leecamp @rooftopeleanor
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:02 AM

leecamp.net
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:02 AM

rooftoprevolutionaries.com
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:02 AM

Oh, and here is Lee's video on religion being like a cock ring...
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

Good point, Eleanor. It's the long-term, patriarchal, institutionalized ( and therefore protectionist ) religions that expect other people to believe what they do and act accordingly.

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:02 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMlGPPcJWtM
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Katie Klabusich

Great topic!! Thanks, Eleanor -- and 1/2 Lee!

Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:03 AM

hopefully he'll be here next time - god will let him tune in :)
Eleanor Goldfield

Eleanor Goldfield · 12:03 AM

Thanks again everyone!