We tend to make a lot of assumptions about the personal lives, histories, and motivations of professional sex workers. Recently, when one Duke University freshman spoke out about her choice to pursue a career in porn as "Bell Knox," she became the center of a heated debate about the value of such work. Can sex work be empowering? If so, what is at the root of our instinct to victimize, belittle, and bully sex workers? Jealousy? Sincere concern? Guilt? Kayt Sukel and Mélanie Berliet discuss.
Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM
Happy Friday everyone!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM
Hello!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM
It's a good day to talk about sex work.
Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM
I thought I'd start by linking to the two articles that inspired the topic, which were written by "the Duke University porn star"
Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM
I'm The Duke University Freshman Porn Star and for the First Time I'm Telling The Story In My Wordsnhttp://www.xojane.com/sex/duke-university-freshman-porn-star
Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM
I'm Finally Revealing My Name And Face As The Duke Porn Starnhttp://www.xojane.com/sex/belle-knox-duke-university-freshman-porn-star
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM
That was a great piece.
Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM
Yes! I was so impressed by both pieces.
Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM
I can only imagine what it's like for her to walk across campus, though.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM
There was also an interesting profile of her in Rolling Stone: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-blue-devil-in-miss-belle-knox-meet-duke-porn-star-miriam-weeks-20140423
Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM
Oh cool, I hadn't seen that.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM
Ugh. I don't want to think about what she has to deal with.
Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM
What's interesting to me is that whomever outed her was obviously a customer/fan
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM
Indeed! And apparently, a friend of hers, too.
Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM
And the disdain she's facing is emblematic of our attitude towards sex workers in general.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM
He apparently told her he wouldn't say anything and then told his fraternity.
Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM
That's awful.
Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM
Why do the very men who consume porn jump at the opportunity to deride sex workers? is it a self hate thing?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM
There is outright disdain. And to that point, did you see this week's Gawker piece on an 18-year-old porn actress who committed suicide when outed? http://gawker.com/college-freshman-outed-as-casting-couch-porn-actress-1580301720
Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM
I did not! That's horrible
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM
A self-hate thing...I don't know.
Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM
A guilt thing?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM
I think there is sort of a double stigma -- both participating or consuming in porn/sex work.
Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM
Are we that uncomfortable with our sexuality?
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Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM
There's this idea that porn itself is shameful...
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM
Maybe by making it about the actors in the videos, they can turn the spotlight off themselves.
Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM
Do you think most people who watch porn feel ashamed about doing so?
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Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM
You know, I've noticed something. Most females won't admit to watching porn. I'm not sure why.
Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM
I feel like I know many people who are totally comfortable with their porn watching habits
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM
But guys who do tend to make a joke about it.
Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM
Oh I've definitely noticed that two about females. Or they admit to it after one too many cocktails....
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
Right, for guys it can be a badge of honor
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Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM
I've seen the same thing with masturbation. Guys will freely admit it...but they make it funny so they can do so. Women, in general, tend to avoid talking about it at all.
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
Definitely
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM
I can only imagine what the story would be if Belle Knox was actually Ben Cox, you know?
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
What do you think of the critics who assert that being a sex worker is anti-feminist?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM
I mean, I bet he'd be getting high fives all over campus.
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
HAHAHA
Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM
Ben Cox
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM
If the sex work is being done with consent, how could it be anti-feminist?
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Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM
Feminism is supposed to be about choices. The ability to be/do what you want, regardless of your sex/gender.
Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM
Yes. So why is it so hard for people to believe that sex work could be a choice?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM
I recently interviewed a really interesting sex worker. She said it was funny, people tended to look down on her until they found out that she also saw disabled clients, a la Helen Hunt in the Sessions.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM
Then, all of a sudden, they saw value in her work.
Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM
There's definitely a stigma that sex workers have necessarily resorted to the profession
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM
I think it bears mentioning that there are all kinds of sex work.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM
Some of which never involves actually having sex with another person.
Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM
Oh really? That is SO INTERESTING about the disabled client corollary
Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM
This is ture. Camming and phone sex operators don't actually have intercourse with their clients
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM
There's cam work, phone sex, professional dominatrixes, etc.
Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM
I interviewed an amazing cam girl for a story once. Rise of the Stay-At-Home Phone Sex Operator:nhttp://bit.ly/1p0CdxZ
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM
Obviously, sex slavery and forced work is not okay. It's a crime.
Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM
The cam girls I spoke with all genuinely loved sex.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM
But I think if a woman goes into sex work with her eyes open, has control over her career, and does what she wants to do, she's actually providing a pretty valuable service.
Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM
Yes, sex work as I'm referring to it is NOT the kind that is forced onto anyone.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM
Every sex worker I've ever interviewed, save one, has been very positive about it. They like what they do. They find it both physically and emotionally appealing.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM
They also enjoy the money.
Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM
On adult industry vet I read about said "it isn't the sex part of sex work that's empowering. It’s the work part. Sex work is not intrinsically empowering any more than being a lawyer is intrinsically empowering."
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
The one person who didn't started in more of a forced kind of way. So she was more ambivalent about it.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
I think that's a great point!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
I mean, if we think about the morals and ethics of any job, there is probably something to criticize in any line of work.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM
Sex work just makes it too easy.
Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM
Most certainly!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM
But it goes back to the question, why all the fuss about it?
Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM
People also love to think of sex work as a last resort, when often it is not.
Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM
Yes, why indeed!
Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM
It's such a time honored profession
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Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM
Although, attitudes are changing. In several countries, folks are reconsidering sex work laws.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
In Tasmania, for example, you can work as a prostitute if you are an independent.
Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM
Yes. I believe there are some very progressive policies in the Netherlands
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
You just can't work as a madam or a pimp.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
Definitely in the Netherlands! And in many towns across Europe.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM
But even Canada is rethinking sex work: http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/27/harper-governments-new-prostitution-laws-will-likely-target-pimps-customers-and-sex-trade-traffickers/
Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM
Here's a piece about the special zones designated for prostitution in The Netherlands: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6178793.stm
Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM
And these progressive policies are all about fostering safety
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM
New Zealand has also made prostitution legal.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM
Certainly, safety is an issue. Both in terms of physical safety and public health concerns.
Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM
Somehow I doubt we're anywhere near these sorts of laws in the good ol' US of A
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
And in Amsterdam, outside the Red Light district, there's even a little center that explains the laws (and hands out condoms).
Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM
Here people love to whisper "prostitution" as though it's a terrible word
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
I think we have this idea that sex work is all about underaged runaways and $5 blowjobs for crack.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM
But many, many people, men and women both, find ways to work virtually and in the real world. And do it safely.
Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM
I wrote a piece about sugar daddy dating that drew quite a bit of media attention. I was interviewed by 20/20 among others, and everyone asked the same question in the same dire tone: "Do you think sugar daddy dating is akin to prostitution?"
Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM
Desperately Seeking Sugar Daddies? http://vnty.fr/1g0YW7h
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM
Well, there are some that think marriage or cohabitation where you aren't making the same amount of money is akin to prostitution.
Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM
My answer was "Does it matter?" And then "Is that engagement ring on your finger not a financial contract of sorts?"
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM
Is agreeing to be a housewife or SAHM Mom also prostitution?
Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM
Right!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM
Frankly, like any work, provided you know what you are getting into, I think it's all good.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM
And the thing about sugar daddies, is that as long as both the daddy and the baby are aware of the situation, why not?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM
Two consenting adults and all that.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM
I think, especially in America, we like to think there is only one way to have a relationship. And it's simply not true.
Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM
I'm all for the sugar dadd/baby arrangements too. I don't think those relationships are all that unique or interesting. Someone just put a fun label on them relatively recently
Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM
And we mix up sex and morals a lot.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM
They certainly aren't new. I knew plenty of aspiring dancers in NYC more than 20 years ago who picked up a Daddy to help them pay bills so they could dance.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM
We talk about this a lot in our Tawks, it seems. About how America could use a reality check on sexuality so they can stop making it the big, bad demon it's not.
Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM
Another interesting thing to think about is that when you judge someone for what they do in the bedroom, you're implying that how they approach/like sex defines who they are.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM
Indeed. Your judgments probably say more about who you are and how you feel about sex.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM
So when is sex work empowering?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM
I think we agree it is demeaning if it is forced, abusive or non-consensual.
Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM
your actions inside the bedroom don't necessarily inform your actions outside the bedroom
Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM
Yes, definitely. The key is consent. Safe, consensual sex.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM
Recently, there was this Law and Order SVU episode about a suburban Mommy prostitute.
Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM
but those who demean sex workers, I think, like to cast them as somehow morally ambiguous
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM
She voted Republican, was happily married, served on the PTA.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM
But she also happened to be a prostitute. It was loosely based on a real case that happened in CT, though I can't remember the woman's name.
Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM
A Republican sex worker. I love it!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM
Definitely what you do in the bedroom (or for work) doesn't have to define you.
Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM
Did she have a husband?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM
She did. And two kids.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM
If a lawyer or counselor or writer can leave their work at the office, why couldn't a prostitute?
Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM
interesting. Here's a quasi silly question: Why did everyone fall in love with Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. Is it because we never saw her sleep with any other dudes?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM
Which is something else I meant to mention--most of the sex workers I've spoken with think of themselves as more of a therapist.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM
They do have sex--but they also listen and encourage. That's not such a bad thing.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM
You know, I never got the Pretty Woman thing. Maybe it was because he saved her at the end. I don't know.
Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM
I wonder how people who think of therapy as a sign of weakness feel about venting to a prostitute instead of visiting a psychotherapist.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM
I felt a lot more charmed by Helen Hunt in "The Sessions."
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM
One sex worker talked about how she spent the first few months with one client just hugging him. He had a huge fear of being touched from past abuse.
Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM
I guess it was super Hollywood-ized and the actual work of being a prostitute was not really accurately represented in Pretty Woman.
Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM
Oh wow.
Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM
That's an expensive hug!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM
Where else would one go to get hugged for an hour?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM
It may have been more expensive, emotionally, to keep being afraid of touching.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM
And given that so many people have shame and hang-ups about sex, maybe a professional is the right person to help them with them.
Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM
Do you think we need to stop using the term "whore" in a derogatory way? I hear it slip out of so many people's mouths.
Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM
No one says "gigolo" when they want to hurt a dude, though.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM
Hmmmm. That's a good question. For me, "whore" is more than a prostitute. It's more of someone who is a sell-out.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM
I think the word has evolved some. But, if you go back to its origins, it isn't a very nice word. And it is definitely pointed at women.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM
But we do use whore to talk about men these days.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM
So much of our demeaning language is anti-sex and anti-woman though.
Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM
In an episode of True Detective, the female operator of a bunny ranch said "Why is it you add business to the mix and boys like you can't stand the thought? I'll tell you. It's 'cause suddenly you don't own it the way you thought you did."
Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM
bunny ranch being an euphemism for brothel, of course
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM
I remember that line--and I liked it. She has a point.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM
Perhaps that's the scariest thing about a professional sex worker. That person has all the control. Who she sees, what she will do, what she won't do, etc.
Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM
Glad you've seen the show too! I thought her point was great.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM
And I think that's when sex work can be empowering. Not when you are necessarily flaunting/using your sexuality. But taking control, taking pride in your work, standing up to bullshit moral indignation, etc.
Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM
Aside from it being therapeutic, why do you think people seek out paid for sex?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM
That's a great question.
Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM
Is it because they're sexually dissatisfied? Because they suddenly really NEED to get off?
Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM
because it's thrilling to pay for it sometimes?
Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM
the novelty?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM
I think there are a lot of reasons. For variety, for pleasure without shame/relationship, for therapy.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM
When I was in graduate school, I went to Amsterdam for a big computer science conference.
Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM
That's very nerd chic of you:)
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM
I traveled with a bunch of other students, all dudes. And when we landed, they all wanted to go to the red light district. And I'm fairly certain they all did.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM
For them, it was a release, a way to party, to have a sure thing.
Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM
I had a boyfriend who went to Russia with a friend while we were dating and hired a high class escort.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM
What reason did he give?
Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM
When I found out about it, I remember being mostly angry at the amount of money spent
Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM
I only found out after we broke up. But the reason was to try it.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM
It can be quite expensive.
Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM
And allegedly it wasn't all that rewarding.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM
I'm sure the reasons for seeking out sex workers are as varied and unique as the reasons for partnering up with someone.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM
One friend, who does visit escorts frequently, jokes that he pays them to leave.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM
But he also says it's nice. He's the center of attention, it's all about his wants/needs, he's being catered to and spoiled. And he likes that.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
It's not his wife being all, "But I gave you oral sex last year!"
Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM
I suppose if you can afford it, it's easy to justify the cost!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
We all justify costs for the things we want/need.
Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM
Does his wife know about his hobby?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
His wife does not know.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM
I don't think she'd appreciate it.
Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM
I'm guessing she would not.
Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM
Have you ever thought about doing any kind of sex work in your lifetime, Kayt?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM
But by using prostitutes instead of random girls, he feels like it is safer for both of them.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM
I worked as a waitress at a strip club. The manager was always suggesting I give the pole a go. I can see why people do it--but I never did.
Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM
That's a serious question. I used to joke that I could always prostitute myself if it came to that to pay rent, but at heart I don't think I have it in me. I'
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM
But I think it may have been more about lack of confidence than anything else.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM
I don't know that I do either--but I also don't think I have it in me to be a therapist.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM
I'd take my clients problems WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.
Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM
I think the uncertainty of clientele is what would intimidate me
Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM
It's a skill to get sexy with a person you're not attracted to.
Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM
You would be a good naked hugger!!!!!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM
Definitely.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM
If only there was a big demand for that!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM
But you know, there is plenty of sex work that is no-touch. Phone sex, cam work.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM
That's always an option (though, I'm told, not where the real money is).
Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM
Yeah. Camming seems like a good way to keep a healthy amount of distance from a client you may not be attracted to
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM
One woman I know does online videos of sex with her husband and does pretty well.
Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM
Oh really?
Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM
Do they live stream them?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM
Yep. And customers can make requests.
Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM
Is it a turn on for the couple you know to be watched or is it all about the money?
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM
I think it's both.
Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM
Interesting.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM
That's the other point I'd like to make. We say sex worker like it's so exotic.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM
But I bet every single person looking at this Tawk knows someone who works in the sex trade.
Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM
I'd agree with that assessment.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM
Or worked in the trade. Whether they are selling rabbits at the local toy shop, doing phone sex, offering blowjobs, whatever.
Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM
Here's a fun list of the 9 Most Famous Prostitutes In History: http://bzfd.it/1jDv0AJ
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM
Cool!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM
That sounds like a good note to end on.
Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM
That's what I was thinking!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM
Okay, thanks for participating, y'all!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM
We'll be talking about the paradox of the powerful woman next time around. Hope you'll come join in!
Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM
Yes thank you all! Feel free to email with any ideas in the meantime: melanie.berliet@gmail.com
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM
And, as always, if you have an idea for us, please email info@kaytsukel.com. We'd love to hear from you.
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM
Until next time!
Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM
Happy Memorial Day weekend!
KS
Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM
Adios!