KK

Kind Love vs Tough Love

May 14, 2014

RH
Stage· 250 messages
May 14, 2014

12-step programs are the gold standard in getting/staying sober in our culture. So, would it shock you to hear that the success rate of AA-style programs is less than 10%? nBehavioral health researcher (& awesome human) Ricky Hill is joining me to talk about a different approach: kind love rather than tough love.nFor background: "The Sober Truth" on NPR http://ow.ly/wvHnD & Dr. Gabor Mate's "Kind Love" http://ow.ly/wvHXh.

KK

Katie Klabusich · 11:58 PM

Hi, everyone! Thanks for coming to "Kind Love vs Tough Love!” (new ProTip: there’s a mobile app: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tawkers/id791417999?mt=8 )
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:00 AM

Yay! I am excited to be in my first Tawk!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:00 AM

Hooray! Ooo..maybe no tech problems today. :P
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:00 AM

Real quick, if you’re new to Tawkers, Ricky and I will be chatting on the left. And if you’re signed in (it only takes two minutes to set up a profile!), you can add comments/questions on the right. Interrupt any time with questions!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:01 AM

I'll cross my fingers.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:01 AM

Also, definitely use the “arrow” icons to share comments on social media & ask people you know will dig the discussion to join in.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:01 AM

**Trigger Warning** for this tawk, just in case we wander into territory that’s personal, confessional or possibly, well, triggering for some. Also, my tawks are a safe space.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:01 AM

Ask questions, share — but no abusive language will be tolerated. If you need to mute someone, click the “ … “ under the thumbs in their comment or click on their profile.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:02 AM

With the disclaimers out of the way, welcome to "Kind Love vs Tough Love!” Thanks so much for joining me, Ricky!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:02 AM

Thank you for having me!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:03 AM

I was pretty excited to discover that someone I know from reprojustice circles is involved in behavior health and was similarly skeptical of 12-Step style programs for addiction and recovery.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:04 AM

It's funny, because I don't talk a lot about my day job in the repro justice circles
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:04 AM

But it's so obviously reproductive justice work in so many ways.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:04 AM

Truth! Just so people know, we’re definitely not here to trash a program that has worked for some, but rather to talk about how AA becoming the standard has caused significant problems and other resources that are available for people in need.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Hi Katie”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“Ya Dr Gabor Mate.”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:04 AM

Oh, yeah. That's a good disclaimer.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:05 AM

Because I 100% support 12 step programs for the people they work for.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:05 AM

Exactly. They're just the assumed "Gold Standard" in sobriety -- something I had taken for granted basically forever.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“ok i'm here now. hello all :-)”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:05 AM

I just think we need to talk more about maybe when they DON'T work, and how we can respond to people's unique needs in unique to them ways.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:05 AM

Absolutely.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:06 AM

Tracie, yes! Alanon worked for me as well.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:06 AM

Totally, Lucy! And the American attitude on getting sober sets people up to assume that there's just "one way" and if it doesn't work YOU have failed.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“btw after ricky retweeted my link to this,my twitter feed broke”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:07 AM

Tracie, I think that's a common experience. Alanon worked for me because it really emphasized the social support component
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:07 AM

and while AA definitely emphasizes the social support, it also still emphasizes an intense hard line of drunk/dry drunk
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:07 AM

and isn't very forgiving.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“I know that Alanon helped me when I had family member with alcoholism - I was 19 when I went”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:07 AM

and that's the tough love v. kind love we're talking about here!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“everyone reacts to things differently and so will need different to "get better" or get help”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:08 AM

Yeah, the Alanon support system seems less problematic than the all or nothing, it always works perception of AA.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:08 AM

There is a lot of learning what you can and can't control, how to let go, etc.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:08 AM

And that isn't to say that some members of AA aren't forgiving
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“but family member NEVER succeeded with AA but still drinks and "falls off the wagon" from time to time”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:08 AM

But, the structure of working your program is pretty rigid.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:08 AM

No, totally. I meant the program set up as Tracie was describing.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

What from personal experience as a behavioral health researcher has made you skeptical about 12-Step/AA programs as the gold standard?
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:09 AM

The fact that I see so many people who've been to meetings who still use!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“should we consider my family member as being enlightened to his issues but not assume he will NEVER drink again? AA says you can NEVER drink”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

That's a pretty clear concern!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:09 AM

I was shocked to learn how low the success rate is.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:10 AM

And the number of folks who I encounter who have been mandated to go to AA or NA, who had no interest in treatment
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:10 AM

(Lucy -- absolutely and it can feed into the addiction cycle)
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“the black / white thinking is very hard on alcoholics”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“but doesnt telling someone you failed,just defeat the object? glad there are other ways”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:10 AM

Again, it's not to say AA or NA aren't effective, but they definitely don't deserve to be "the gold standard"
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:11 AM

no more than any other treatment does.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:11 AM

I suspect it being free is one reason states mandate it. Or am I wrong, there?
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:11 AM

YUP.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:11 AM

that is 100% the reason it is the most accessed treatment
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:11 AM

becuase it's not that AA is mandated, per se, just "treatment"
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:11 AM

Isn't there a violation of church and state inherent in that mandate?
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:11 AM

Oh.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:11 AM

But AA is free.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:11 AM

personally, I think so.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:11 AM

yup.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:11 AM

not only is AA free
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:11 AM

So mandate --> AA, basically.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:12 AM

it is the most readily available.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:12 AM

Tracie -- that is an EXCELLENT point.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:12 AM

the folks i work with live in small, small towns
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:12 AM

Yeah, Ricky is a red state hero.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:12 AM

Anyone who follows me on twitter knows I LOVE red state activists. <3
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“the twelve steps seem like a good start and it is a place to go when you have a drinking problem. it's free right?”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:13 AM

small towns just don't have the same kind of access. and new mexico in particular has a major health care worker shortage, AND our behavioral health system collapsed last year
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:13 AM

so, we have particularly acute needs for treatment.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:14 AM

and AA and NA are often the only options for cost and convenience and sheer existence at all.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“If someone is mandated to be there - and doesn't want to be - that can bring the whole room to a stop - a defeated attitude will not help those who are there for help”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:14 AM

That's so unfortunate. It has to lead to people feeling more trapped and perpetuating addiction cycles.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:14 AM

Jay, I think that's what a lot of folks who do therapeutic/clinical work say
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:14 AM

but, at the same time, I won't argue against the usefulness of a group session in general
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:14 AM

Yeah, a program is only going to be as effective as those implementing it.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:15 AM

but when you're involved in high levels of disclosure, etc etc, it can get messy.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:15 AM

Tracie -- the title of the tawk is about therapy/program style, not how a family deals with addicts, which can be a different story. You have to do what's healthy for yourself as a relative/loved one.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jay Becker

“I have never been involved with AA but I know people who have been (who doesn't?) and one concern I have is the fact that they sound like therapy sessions but no one involved is trained. Can some distorted counseling result?”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Kind love often doesn't work in families with an alcoholic. The addict learns to take advantage.”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:17 AM

Well, the "tough love" of AA is coming from a very rigid idea of addiction, that you're either using or you're not, you're either working your program or your not, and if you're not, well, you're doing it wrong.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Group therapy is awesome especially because the isolation that alcoholics typically feel. Many drink to self medicate.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jay Becker

“Can you define and/or describe "kind love" in contrast to AA practice?”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:18 AM

the idea of kind love recognizes a much less rigid view of addiction, as more than just sober/using, and as being influenced by a great number of factors, which is always coming from a place of pain. And kind love is acknowleding that pain.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:19 AM

The "kind love" approach seems to be more interested in the whole story of a person.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:20 AM

Exactly. It addresses the very real traumas that influence people who have issues with addiction. Which he says aren't always those awful things that shouldn't ever happen, but also include those things that should have happened, but didn't.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“AA is really all or nothing. And taking someone's chips away can be very defeating to someone who is new to sobriety.”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:20 AM

Like, a child who is expecting their parent to pick them up from school, but their parent forgets, and the child is left there, feeling abandoned. Sure, that's one small example and it seems like nothing, but to the child, that IS a trauma.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“I also don't like the "god" reference in AA but that's another story....”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:21 AM

and those add up over time.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:21 AM

tracie, I think you'd find clinicians who have all different answers to that question.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:21 AM

I really liked that part of Dr. Gabor Mate's "Kind Love" ( http://ow.ly/wvHXh )
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:21 AM

It isn't always about trauma -- for a lot of us it's discovering what we DIDN'T get.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:22 AM

Exactly. And that can cause a wound. And addiction is a response to wounds.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:22 AM

Which, to me, makes so much sense!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:22 AM

But we see the after-school special model that says something overt has to happen, that we shouldn't just trust how we felt.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:22 AM

Totally!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“does the definition of an alcoholic mean that they can never drink/use again?”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:23 AM

Exactly. And it's very easy to point at people who have very low lows and say THAT is addiction. That isn't me.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:23 AM

<points at self>
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:23 AM

been there
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:23 AM

Having to decide whether you're an addict or not -- as though there's a binary there, necessarily -- really is something people struggle with.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:24 AM

Right! I have used substances in really, really destructive ways.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“People fail to realize that what doesn't bother one person traumatizes (or hurts) another.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:25 AM

I was a 25+ shot/day person for years bar tending and working multiple jobs, super unhappy. Because I watched the AA "one drink means you've slipped" + "you can't ever drink again if you've had problems with a substance" model, I was terrified.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:25 AM

With good reason. Because if you ever--EVER--had another drop--EVER--you have to start over.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:25 AM

That's so scary!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:26 AM

Totally. Then I realized I'm a situational problem person. I can't be the one holding the bottle behind the bar. It's simply not an issue for me anymore -- but I can't work in bars.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:26 AM

Does that mean I'm an addict? dunno. I'm just glad to see a new narrative that makes the distinction and offers different kinds of help.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:27 AM

And then there are those of us who grew up in houses like Lucy's -- <3 <3 -- who are just afraid of substances altogether for good reason.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:28 AM

i grew up in an alcoholic household that no one ever called alcoholic, until i moved out and was able to. and while i've never struggled with alcoholism, i've definitely inherited a lot of the alcoholic behavior
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:28 AM

That's an interesting sidebar -- you don't have to drink to have the behavior. How does that manifest?
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“my mother was an alcoholic. she never wanted any help. god knows i tried,i was only about 12/13 at the time. she basically destroyed herself. and me too”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Lucy, <3”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“man,that was hard to write”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:29 AM

well, for me personally it manifests in my inability to accurately process emotions in the moment, and in avoidance.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:30 AM

Sure. My dad had that as the son of an alcoholic. In a huge way -- it's still a problem at 65.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“I grew up with Father and Brother who were alcoholics - or as my co-dependent mother said "had drinking problems" I was the "normal" one”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“they call it "dry drunk" right”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:31 AM

Right? And I went to Alanon and I did ACA for a while--I am actually looking at my ACA big book right now--and they just didn't work for me.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:31 AM

Or, rather
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:31 AM

Are there good online communities/resources you can recommend to people who are dealing with avoidance issues or are loved ones of someone who is?
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:31 AM

they worked for the amount of time that they wored.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:31 AM

*worked
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:31 AM

That's a really healthy way to look at it!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“yup thats me too”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:32 AM

you know, I don't actually know of any online sources that I'd send anyone to.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“hmmm - I think I have some of that too”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:32 AM

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else had any ideas.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:32 AM

Well, I think we've identified a gap! We'll have to look around.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:33 AM

Is it bizarre that I get as excited about things that don't exist, but we totally need as I do about existing resources? ;)
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:33 AM

It's not bizarre at all!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:33 AM

Good question, Jay. I've kind of wondered about that term. Is is flippant and offensive, or just descriptive?
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:34 AM

So, Dry Drunk refers to people who aren't drinking, but have returned to their destructive behaviors, often considered not attending meetings, isolating, being secretive, etc
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:35 AM

Tracie, yeah. I've also heard it used to describe anyone who doesn't go to meetings any more.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Adult behaviors learned as children is a HUGE topic e”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:35 AM

Is it like an addiction slur? I've always been hesitant to use it.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jay Becker

“How does AA define "dry drunk" and do you agree with their definition? If not, why not?”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:35 AM

Katie, some people see it that way.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:35 AM

Interesting -- so if you don't go anymore, you're suspect.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:36 AM

Yeah. It's viewed as not working your program in the correct way.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“especially children from alcoholic homes - the "good" children the perfectionists the peacemakers”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:36 AM

Ok; I just try not to use blaming language if I can avoid it.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:36 AM

You never "age out" of AA.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:36 AM

Heh. I suppose not with the efficacy rate. I just see a lot of the in-take programs using 12-steps which basically are Addiction, Inc. If you "fail" out, you come back for the same treatment.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“I've heard it used describing sober people who still behave like they are using. Whether it be screaming, physical, withdrawing”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:37 AM

It makes me super skeptical even of the free programs b/c they reinforce our assumption that it's THE method.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:37 AM

ding ding ding. exactly.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:37 AM

So what do we do?
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:37 AM

Are we stuck with Sobriety, Inc? Are there options?
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:38 AM

GOOD QUESTION. i think it's something that has to be systemic change, really, at how we think about addiction.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“I've seen it in a friend's husband. He throws fits. Her therapists used it to describe him.”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:38 AM

which is why i love that dr. mate piece so much
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

So, more talking. HUZZAH!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

Me too. Until we reduce stigma, we aren't going to "solve" much of this.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:38 AM

well, less talking, but more LISTENING
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

Well, that means someone is talking. ;)
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:38 AM

ha! fair.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:38 AM

i think we need to actually have conversations with people who struggle with addiction.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:38 AM

I just meant not being afraid to share with each other and talk about issues with social stigma.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:39 AM

and ask what they need.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:39 AM

Yep. Lots of sharing and listening. GREAT POINT -- less assuming.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“never heard of that term before. in a strange way,its nice to know theres finally a word/phrase that describes how i am. gives me a starting point”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“He never went to AA. I think the 12 steps help people with the whole process of sobriety. But the all or nothing attitude can be destructive”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:39 AM

because honestly, nine times out of ten, the folks i am talking to have other issues that need to be addresed before they can talk about quitting drinking
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:39 AM

like, paying rent.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:39 AM

and getting their kids to school.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:39 AM

and showing up to work.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:40 AM

and and and.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:40 AM

You work with a lot of marginalized groups; do the 12-step meeting/reliance on biblical faith have a disproportionate and negative affect on them?
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:40 AM

Totally. Life > meetings.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:40 AM

i mean, i wouldn't say every queer person i work with is turned off to 12 step meetings because of their biblical leanings
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:40 AM

BUT
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:41 AM

i would say yes, i've had more than one person voice that as a concern and as a reason why they didn't go back.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:41 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jay Becker

“A friend who struggled with addiction and has been sober for years is very critical of AA for fostering dependency on meetings. I can see where losing your chip for one drink would be terrifying. I do see people who say they need 4 meetings a week.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:41 AM

There's an inherent judgmental assumption in the program -- even if the people in the individual local meetings aren't judgmental.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:41 AM

and as someone who is not a christian and practices another faith tradition, it is also one of the reasons i stopped going
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:41 AM

That's so frustrating. We aren't very affirming in our differences.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:42 AM

"We" the societal version.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:42 AM

(lucy, i mostly meant listening for providers to create better treatment programs)
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:42 AM

i mean, there are queer AA meetings...in cities.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Funny how when you share you find that EVERYONE has some form of addiction that they struggle with or a family member struggles with.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:42 AM

Yeah, not everyone is in a city. :/
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:42 AM

the folks i am working with don't have access to those meetings. they have access to the meetings in the baptist church.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:42 AM

Ugh. Often places they already feel rejection radiating out of.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:43 AM

yeah. it really does create a major barrier for queer folks living in rural areas.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“there's that "god" thing again. it turns me off.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

That's unfortnate, Tracie.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“platforms like let me talk about stuff. get it off my chest. talking is good but,yes,listening is good too.”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:44 AM

Tracie, that is exactly the kind of issue that makes AA questionable to me as an effective mandate.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:44 AM

Yeah, it would be one thing if AA style meetings were PART of a treatment option or plan -- the community and support side.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:44 AM

But when it's used in place of therapy....
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:44 AM

and in theory, they're meant to be.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:45 AM

but when people don't have access to therapy because they don't have insurance
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:45 AM

and the only other place that will sign off on their court papers is AA
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:45 AM

Yeah, I feel that. Community centers even in cities are overloaded.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:45 AM

Been there.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“and not every AA meeting makes you feel welcome - there are cliques everywhere - that' what my brother told me. He didn't "fit" in. -- which is probably why he drank in the first place.”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:45 AM

they are. there is such a behavioral healthcare crisis in this country
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:46 AM

Yeah, we just started a regular Anxiety Talk chat -- people are really struggling to find community and coping mechanism b/c even with insurance reform (ACA), there just isn't enough access.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

I was pretty psyched that my new primary care doc didn't blink when I mentioned anxiety/ADD/etc and just referred me to get good diagnosis, then come back to talk about a plan. That's really rare -- and I'm in NYC.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“so AA is the only alternative and that's bad because EVERY meeting is different”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:47 AM

On a daily basis, Tracie.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:47 AM

There aren't enough providers. There aren't enough ways for them to be able to afford to see the clients who really need them. This isn't about the doctors doing it wrong--this is the insurance system and the health care industry squeezing every cent
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:48 AM

Absolutely.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:48 AM

out of a population who is basically at their mercy.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:48 AM

and when it doesn't get taken care of, it just funnels into the prison system.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:48 AM

WHICH IS ANOTHER TAWK.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:48 AM

And a historical separation of "mental" vs "basic" healthcare -- as if mental health is separate somehow. -__-
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:48 AM

Yup.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:48 AM

Yes! Good call. <sends off email request for follow up talk> ;)
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Anxiety is an issue that people refuse to validate -”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:49 AM

I think social media platforms and people beginning to find community and understand they aren't "weird" if something doesn't work or they don't fit in is a great start to breaking down stigma.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“ever been told to "calm down"?”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:50 AM

The amazing work you do every day will hopefully benefit from people being less afraid to talk about what's going on with themselves.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:50 AM

Absolutely. I think we're seeing an increase in people caring about addressing these issues in new ways, so it really is heartening to me.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:50 AM

Yah! I love good news.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:50 AM

I mean, having this conversation is a great start!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jay Becker

“Couldn't agree with you more, Ricky!”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:51 AM

Before I forget -- everyone should follow Ricky @prettyrickyroo b/c all kinds of awesome.
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:51 AM

oh, you're too kind! i mostly just tweet rants and pictures of the desert. but you're welcome to follow if you like those things!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“shouldn't therapy "check-ups" happen regularly for EVERYONE? After all, your friends shouldn't be privy to all of your thoughts and worries....”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:52 AM

AND b/c I love when my friends and my friends partners do amazing things, follow @foodfarb b/c of ass kicking on the food network right now. :)
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:52 AM

OMG FOR REAL THOUGH
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:52 AM

I am so proud of her!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:52 AM

Also, before I forget!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jay Becker

“They fulfill some of the functions of the old consciousness raising group but they are anonymous, which has its down sides (to put it mildly). But still helpful if that's kept in mind.”

RH

Ricky Hill · 12:53 AM

This is an example of anti-stigma work that's being done here in ABQ right now, targeting the attacks on pregnant people who have substance use issues:
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:53 AM

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Young-Women-United/115921231790158
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:53 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Yes, Katie and Ricky - the social media IS helping people find acceptance and friends who are just as "weird" (read:special) as they are.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:53 AM

Great group! Go forth and "like"
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:53 AM

Pregnancy and substance abuse is yet another tawk.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:54 AM

(looking at you, Tenn legislators....)
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:54 AM

This was an art project that turned into an self-advocacy campaign, and YES! it's such an important issue!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:54 AM

The group that did this actually worked on this some with organizers in TN
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:54 AM

Awesome!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:54 AM

So, yes, that's my "leave on a positive note"
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:55 AM

instead of like a depressing statistic or something, which i am known to do.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:55 AM

I'm pretty psyched people came out -- hallo, readers out there listening! -- and participated and shared so much personal stuff!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:55 AM

I have to purposely do that too!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:55 AM

totally! thank y'all for having so much to say! i love it.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:56 AM

Hopefully, next time Ricky has something buzzing around the brain that needs chatting, we'll get to do this again! You're welcome any time, my friend.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:56 AM

Thank you so much for sharing, Lucy!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:56 AM

Oh, thanks! This is a great platform!
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:56 AM

Yes, Lucy, thank you!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:57 AM

My next tawk is Thursday with Katie Vitale -- b/c I can't get enough of red state activists. We're talking about the gaps in healthcare and how hard it is when you're living on the margins to find access. <3
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:57 AM

See everyone over on the twitter! ;)
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:57 AM

oh, that is some real talk
RH

Ricky Hill · 12:57 AM

thanks again for hosting, katie!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tracie White Galluscio

“Thanks - as always - Katie - for everything you do! Thanks to you too Ricky - hugs....”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:57 AM

Thank you for coming!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“thanks for this tawk you two.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 12:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“its helped alot”