Katie Klabusich

Host

"Labels on my soul: bisexual/queer"

Apr 15, 2014·100 visitors

Aaminah Khan

Cohost

Stage· 221 messages

Apr 15, 2014

If you don't know Aaminah Khan -- aka @jaythenerdkid -- you might be doing the internet wrong. But it's cool, b/c you're here & you're about to find out why she's awesome.nnShe's the embodiment of intersectional & describes herself this way: "I am Jay, a queer bisexual cis femme. This label on my soul is freeing – it is a license to be myself, unashamedly, whatever that self may be…."nnJoin us to chat about the label queer, why she owns it & why people still seem so unsure what it means.

Katie Klabusich · 7:59 PM

Hi, everyone! Thanks for coming to "Labels on my soul: bisexual/queer" with the fantastic Aaminah Khan -- aka @jaythenerdkid! (new ProTip: there’s a Tawkers mobile app: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tawkers/id791417999?mt=8 )

Katie Klabusich · 8:00 PM

Also, the website likes you to give it the occasional love by refreshing your browser, so if comments aren't loading or you aren't seeing yours, give that a try.

Katie Klabusich · 8:00 PM

If you’re new to Tawkers, Jay and I will be chatting on the left. And if you’re signed in (it only takes two minutes to set up a profile!), you can add comments/questions on the right. Interrupt any time with questions!

Katie Klabusich · 8:01 PM

Also, definitely use the “arrow” icons to share comments on social media & ask people you know will dig the discussion to join in.

Katie Klabusich · 8:01 PM

Reminder: my tawks are safe spaces. Will will respond to any question or comment asked respectfully and from a position of good faith. Abusive language will not be tolerated. Tawkers can be muted by clicking their names.

Katie Klabusich · 8:02 PM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“hello.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:02 PM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“howdy!”

Katie Klabusich · 8:02 PM

Jay & I have struck up an online friendship based on similar interests, courtesy & silliness. I respect & admire her honesty in discussing damn near anything; she is fierce in her feminism & her humor.

Katie Klabusich · 8:02 PM

So when I saw her using Ask.Fm on twitter to discuss the label “queer” and her sexuality I immediately invited her to chat about it. Jay, thanks so much for joining me at this ungodly Australian hour!

Aaminah Khan · 8:02 PM

It was a bit strange waking up around the time I usually go to bed, but I really am thrilled to be here. Thanks for inviting me!

Katie Klabusich · 8:03 PM

I sometimes forget you're on the other side of the world b/c you're around the same time I am online. :)

Katie Klabusich · 8:03 PM

I want to start with one of your Ask.Fm ( http://ask.fm/jaythenerdkid ) responses. Someone asked who you are & in part you said: "I'm not who you think I am but am exactly who I want to be except for I'm not.” I love that answer.

Katie Klabusich · 8:04 PM

Do people think that means you don't know who you are?

Aaminah Khan · 8:04 PM

That's a good question. I think that in general, there's a lot of confusion about what "queer" means and it's partly because it's such an umbrella term.

Katie Klabusich · 8:04 PM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“wonderful answer!”

Aaminah Khan · 8:05 PM

There are a lot of people who ID as queer, and pretty much the only thing we all have in common is that we're not cishet (cisgender and heterosexual) - we might be one or the other, but not both.

Katie Klabusich · 8:05 PM

That's a really succinct way to explain it.

Aaminah Khan · 8:06 PM

When I first started to ID as queer, I was talking to a friend of mine who IDs the same way but is genderfluid and uses xie/hir pronouns. Xie likes the term "queer" because xie feels like it covers a lot of things, like gender fluidity.

Aaminah Khan · 8:06 PM

Me, I'm a cisgender bisexual femme. I'm AFAB (assigned female at birth) and identify as a woman, but I feel like my femme ID is more important - I'd be femme even if I weren't female.

Katie Klabusich · 8:07 PM

Robin -- cishet is defined in the parenthesis -- Jay's pretty amazing at including some 101 w/o condescension.

Katie Klabusich · 8:07 PM

Which is one reason I dig her.

Aaminah Khan · 8:07 PM

"Xie" is a gender-neutral pronoun that some people use in place of he/she. Cishet is an abbreviation of "cisgender and heterosexual".

Katie Klabusich · 8:08 PM

Cis gender means you ID with the sex you were assigned at birth.

Katie Klabusich · 8:08 PM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“ok. i see a couple terms i do not know. ...cishet and xie. definition?”

Aaminah Khan · 8:08 PM

Other gender neutral pronouns include they/them, zie/zir, etc. It's always a good idea to ask people what their pronouns are if you're not sure.

Katie Klabusich · 8:08 PM

I got the title for the tawk from Jay's piece Labels On My Soul -- here's the link b/c definitely read it: http://jaythenerdkid.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/labels-on-my-soul-bisexualqueer/

Katie Klabusich · 8:09 PM

Jay, you called the label freeing: ""I am Jay, a queer bisexual cis femme. This label on my soul is freeing – it is a licence to be myself, unashamedly, whatever that self may be…." -- Most people think of labels as the opposite of freeing.

Aaminah Khan · 8:10 PM

That's the great thing about "queer" - because it can encompass so many things, it's quite a liberating ID. It's one reason I use it.

Aaminah Khan · 8:10 PM

People still make assumptions - they might assume I'm lesbian, genderqueer (which is a separate thing), trans or so on - but the term itself can mean a lot. I find that freeing.

Katie Klabusich · 8:11 PM

Totally. Finding a label has been something I've struggled with quite a bit. I'm looking forward to the liberation of working it out. :P

Katie Klabusich · 8:11 PM

Is the umbrella-ness of the term why people don't understand what it means or what its usage is? Or does that happen b/c GAY freaks people out?

Aaminah Khan · 8:12 PM

I think there are a lot of factors. For example, one time I referred to myself as queer and a friend asked me, "isn't that a slur?"

Aaminah Khan · 8:12 PM

Of course, queer can be a slur for all kinds of LGBT people, but it's also a term that's been reclaimed. So that's one reason why there's some confusion.

Aaminah Khan · 8:12 PM

Another is that people confuse it with the term "genderqueer", which has a different meaning.

Katie Klabusich · 8:12 PM

I worried a bit about that initially myself. I never want to be an asshole if I can help it.

Aaminah Khan · 8:13 PM

I think the fact that many people with varying kinds of gender and sexual expression use it might confuse people, but in a way that's deliberate.

Katie Klabusich · 8:13 PM

Everyone wants to be called by their name.

Aaminah Khan · 8:13 PM

One reason people might ID as queer is that they don't want to have to explain everything about their gender and sexuality.

Aaminah Khan · 8:14 PM

When I refer to myself as bisexual, people assume I'm only attracted to cisgender binary people, which isn't true at all.

Katie Klabusich · 8:14 PM

Yeah, I've thought about it that way too. Describing my sexuality is a whole discussion and I find it exhausting when I'm not in an education role (on air, chatting, writing, etc.).

Katie Klabusich · 8:14 PM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“hmmm, so would you want to be called your name or queer?”

Katie Klabusich · 8:14 PM

((I know there are other tawkers in the chat -- I see you! Hit the refresh on your browsers if you need to and jump in!)

Aaminah Khan · 8:15 PM

Oh, and to answer that commenter question from before, I definitely prefer to be called by my name. Queer is an ID, not a name!

Aaminah Khan · 8:15 PM

Leah! :D

Katie Klabusich · 8:15 PM

Totally. I just spotlighted it to make that point clear. Name, please. Then preferred pronounce.

Katie Klabusich · 8:15 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Hi Katie and Aaminah! <3”

Katie Klabusich · 8:16 PM

At The Best of the Left Podcast (I run social media/write activism segments), following an LGBTQ rights episode, we got some voicemails and have had an ongoing conversation about who “is allowed” to ID as queer.

Katie Klabusich · 8:16 PM

There have been a couple straight, cis callers who say they prefer the queer label. The reactions have been heated. What would you say to a cis, white, straight dude who “feels queer?” Are there qualifications to using the label?

Katie Klabusich · 8:16 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“The trouble is they can't see you tell them to hit "refresh" until after they hit refresh - it took me a minute since this is my first time here and all”

Aaminah Khan · 8:16 PM

This is something I've discussed with queer friends on Twitter in the past. To be honest, it does feel a bit appropriative.

Aaminah Khan · 8:17 PM

One big issue we've seen especially in recent times is that cishet men who are attracted to trans women think this makes them queer. That's offensive to queer people and trans women both.

Katie Klabusich · 8:17 PM

It feels appropriative to me as well.

Aaminah Khan · 8:17 PM

It comes across as a bit fetishistic if people are labelling themselves as queer just because they're in relationships with queer or trans people.

Aaminah Khan · 8:17 PM

My boyfriend is cishet and that hasn't changed despite the fact that he's in a relationship with a queer woman. He wouldn't call himself queer.

Aaminah Khan · 8:18 PM

On the other hand, of course we try not to police people's identities - but if someone specifically says they're cishet but they "feel" queer, that feels a little wrong to me.

Katie Klabusich · 8:19 PM

Yeah. That was the approach/explantion we took as well.

Aaminah Khan · 8:19 PM

Of course, some people are bicurious, have fluid sexualities or are experimenting with sexuality and gender, and "queer" might be an ID they feel comfortable with while they're working things out.

Katie Klabusich · 8:19 PM

Like, I can't not be white just b/c I find a large portion of white people to be racist and annoying.

Aaminah Khan · 8:19 PM

Absolutely. And I'm not trans just because I disapprove of transphobia and work to combat it.

Katie Klabusich · 8:19 PM

You can't just grab onto queer b/c you'd ID with the politics/movement/equality inherent in that ID.

Katie Klabusich · 8:20 PM

Yeah, I get a lot of "Are you gay? You seem to care about gay rights." me: side eye

Katie Klabusich · 8:20 PM

It's actually why my mom thinks I'm gay.

Katie Klabusich · 8:20 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“*Moment of silence for the #greenpeoplebelike hashtag*”

Katie Klabusich · 8:20 PM

★ Spotlighted from Paul C

“I disagree Kelly. I think labels are pretty essential to building a community. Especially in the bisexual community whose very existence is constantly questioned.”

Aaminah Khan · 8:21 PM

I've had a lot of people assume I'm trans. I don't mind at all, but I don't want to appropriate anyone else's identity so I generally politely set them straight.

Katie Klabusich · 8:21 PM

But that experience of family alienation based on perceived sexuality doesn't make me queer either, though I can empathize with some of the relationship issues coming out can cause.

Katie Klabusich · 8:21 PM

That's a good way to explain why you do the correction.

Katie Klabusich · 8:21 PM

Oh, I'll let Jay get on that "but you've never slept with so-and-so..."

Aaminah Khan · 8:22 PM

Leah: I've had more than one gay friend tell me I'm "just a straight girl" because I've never slept with a woman. Biphobia comes from both "sides" of the sexuality spectrum!

Katie Klabusich · 8:22 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“I get that a lot too. But then when I was questioning whether I might be bi or not, a friend totally shut me down because I've never slept with a girl, and a whole room full of lesbians said bless your heart, you're just confused.”

Aaminah Khan · 8:22 PM

It's funny because we don't require straight virgins to prove that they're straight by sleeping with someone. We take them at their word.

Aaminah Khan · 8:22 PM

But a bisexual virgin, or a bisexual/pansexual person who's only been in relationships with people of other genders, is constantly hounded for "proof" of their sexuality.

Katie Klabusich · 8:23 PM

Hahaha...I had some imagery on straight virgins proving their sexuality...

Katie Klabusich · 8:23 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Right”

Aaminah Khan · 8:23 PM

Biphobia is a real problem both within and without the LGBT+ rights movement. People think we're experimenting/going through a phase/looking for attention, etc. It's frustrating.

Katie Klabusich · 8:24 PM

Do you have favorite resources (besides yourself!) for people who have straight lived experiences, but are questioning whether they might be bi? A lot of people don't want to just go out and "try" things b/c other people are involved and could be

Katie Klabusich · 8:24 PM

hurt, even unintentionally.

Aaminah Khan · 8:25 PM

Hmmm. There's actually a great post by @flyingteacosy about the unfair stigma surrounding people who are experimenting with their sexuality.

Katie Klabusich · 8:25 PM

Paul -- even if that is something that gay men in unsupportive environments do, it shouldn't be automatically assumed that you are "using" your bisexuality that way.

Katie Klabusich · 8:25 PM

★ Spotlighted from Paul C

“I only have a couple of instances of that kind of biphobia. Twice at my city's Pride celebration last year I was told I was actually gay. Oh and my friend read on the internet that some gay guys use bisexuality as a stepping stone to being gay so he'”

Katie Klabusich · 8:25 PM

★ Spotlighted from Paul C

“*he's convinced that I'm doing that too.”

Aaminah Khan · 8:26 PM

Even people who are "just curious" are expressing legitimate sexual desire, and while they might end up hurting queer partners in the long run, I don't think that's necessarily their fault as much as it's just a case of things not working out.

Katie Klabusich · 8:26 PM

Well said.

Katie Klabusich · 8:26 PM

★ Spotlighted from Paul C

“I keep trying to tell him that!”

Aaminah Khan · 8:27 PM

I know it can be frustrating for a queer person to pursue something with someone who ends up not being queer, but relationships don't work out for all kinds of reasons. That's life. It's unfortunate but it's how it is.

Katie Klabusich · 8:27 PM

I suppose I don't go into my relationships worried upfront about whether life changes on my part will injure the other person.

Aaminah Khan · 8:27 PM

The best we can do is communicate our needs and desires openly and honestly and hope things will work out. That goes for all kinds of relationships, romantic or not, queer or not.

Aaminah Khan · 8:28 PM

You asked me about resources - the aforementioned @flyingteacosy has a great blog, Consider the Tea Cosy, where she talks about queer issues sometimes.

Katie Klabusich · 8:28 PM

Awesome, thank you! .... How do we combat the bi stereotypes/stigmas? Solve it for us, Jay! ;)

Katie Klabusich · 8:28 PM

(Also, that is a great handle.)

Katie Klabusich · 8:31 PM

Jay had to restart her internet. You know, fun with tech and such.

Katie Klabusich · 8:31 PM

If you jumped in late, I'm going to plug her piece that I titled the tawk after again: http://jaythenerdkid.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/labels-on-my-soul-bisexualqueer/

Katie Klabusich · 8:32 PM

In her words: "I am Jay, a queer bisexual cis femme. This label on my soul is freeing – it is a licence to be myself, unashamedly, whatever that self may be…."

Katie Klabusich · 8:33 PM

@Leah -- did you find it hard to share with people that you were questioning? I can imagine that "label" has its stigmas as well.

Katie Klabusich · 8:33 PM

Heidi! :D

Katie Klabusich · 8:34 PM

Heh...I had to refresh my browser, sorry bout that. I was behind on comments! Should've know the chatty folks were still going. ;)

Katie Klabusich · 8:34 PM

★ Spotlighted from Heidi Gerbracht

“Hey Katie and Jay!”

Katie Klabusich · 8:34 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“I went and followed @flyingteacosy in the meantime on Twitter. Good stuff!”

Katie Klabusich · 8:35 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“I really like "asking for straight pride is like asking for able-bodied parking spaces"”

Katie Klabusich · 8:35 PM

I could try, but I'll wait till Jay

Katie Klabusich · 8:35 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“It can be very difficult to be candid about, but that's the best solution I can come up with thus far. I still don't with my family, though. Just friends.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:35 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Having even just one understanding partner makes a huge world of difference.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:35 PM

**Jay's backup internet happens and she's back. ;) I'll make sure we get your question in, Rebecca.

Katie Klabusich · 8:36 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Katie - yes, certainly I did. It was hard enough even before Cara was just point blank "No you aren't" after I confided in her that I think I might be bi.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:36 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Cnn someone please explain the term femme to me?”

Katie Klabusich · 8:36 PM

Ugh, that's rough. Having the first time you stand outside the heteronormative box be negative has to be an extra rejection. <3

Katie Klabusich · 8:36 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“She was the first female crush I ever admitted to having. It was like, that added this extra level of "oh. ouch."”

Katie Klabusich · 8:37 PM

I have people question my sexuality a fair amount and I'm your basic heterosexual -- though, perhaps less fluid even that most. But I don't want marriage or kids, which confuses people for some reason.

Katie Klabusich · 8:38 PM

Leah -- that's basically how I hear it as well. It's different than female in that you can be femme and male or femme and transgender.

Katie Klabusich · 8:38 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“I... think it means just presenting in like, stereotypically feminine ways? I'm not certain on a good definition for "femme" though.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:38 PM

I'm arguably less femme than a few of my cis male gay friends.

Aaminah Khan · 8:38 PM

Sorry!

Katie Klabusich · 8:39 PM

There she is! Huzzah! Usually it's me with the internet issues. ;)

Katie Klabusich · 8:39 PM

So the first up question I didn't want to mis-answer is to define "femme" for the lovely Rebecca. :)

Aaminah Khan · 8:40 PM

Femme is a way of presenting, rather than a gender. I've had some people tell me they think of femme as a gender, but I think of it as a way of expressing yourself - you can be a femme woman, man or non-binary person.

Katie Klabusich · 8:40 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Right, so "cis femme" is probably more descriptive than just saying "woman."”

Katie Klabusich · 8:40 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Thanks! I think words are one of the first lines of defense in changing our thoughts. I want to get it right! :)”

Katie Klabusich · 8:40 PM

<high fives self> That was how I was using it.

Katie Klabusich · 8:40 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“I guess we forgive you THIS time Jay :-p”

Aaminah Khan · 8:40 PM

Femme can mean a lot of things - for me it's skirts, lipstick, high heels. Sometimes it means lots of pink and glitter, sometimes it means lots of black lipstick and fake nails.

Katie Klabusich · 8:41 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“That sucks, Leah. I think the human experience is to have a few crappy relationships, though - it kind of helps you sort out what you want, what you'll stand for, all of that. As you get older and more confident, it gets WAY better.”

Aaminah Khan · 8:41 PM

I have a lot of femme friends of many genders, and I guess the common denominator is that we enjoy things that people think of as "girly".

Katie Klabusich · 8:41 PM

Yeah, you're WAY more femme than I am for sue.

Aaminah Khan · 8:41 PM

Using "girly" is a bit problematic, though, because obviously people who aren't girls can enjoy makeup or fashion or playing with dolls.

Katie Klabusich · 8:42 PM

What's the "manly" flip side to femme?

Aaminah Khan · 8:42 PM

I've had people say it's butch or just masculine. I'm honestly not sure.

Katie Klabusich · 8:42 PM

Butch had a feel to it I wasn't sure was one of the "available for use outside the community" terms.

Aaminah Khan · 8:43 PM

Generally it's best to ask people how they identify. They'll tell you which terms they prefer. I tell people outright that I'm femme.

Aaminah Khan · 8:43 PM

Well, it's a bit like the term queer - it can be used as a slur, but it can also be used positively. Definitely a case where you'd test the waters first.

Aaminah Khan · 8:43 PM

Macho is a good suggestion!

Katie Klabusich · 8:43 PM

I can't remember the last time I heard someone use a masculine descriptor the way femme is used.

Katie Klabusich · 8:44 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Macho?”

Aaminah Khan · 8:44 PM

I know some women and non-binary people who use "butch", but I really like Leah's suggestion of "macho".

Katie Klabusich · 8:44 PM

Me too.

Katie Klabusich · 8:44 PM

I have a quick thank you from the Labels piece you wrote.

Katie Klabusich · 8:44 PM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“I like like that answer its best to ask.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:44 PM

I appreciated that you included stereotypes about polyamorous relationships and people; I tend to ID most often with poly people (I prefer secondary relationships) & the responses are, well, clumsy at best from most folks.

Aaminah Khan · 8:45 PM

I'm not poly myself, but a lot of my introduction to the queer community was through poly friends, so that's always been a part of my activism.

Katie Klabusich · 8:45 PM

Poly is kind of a label that floats out on its own, so it was a nice nod.

Katie Klabusich · 8:45 PM

Would you put poly under the queer umbrella?

Aaminah Khan · 8:45 PM

Hmmm. Some poly people I've talked to say yes, some say no. Not all poly people are queer or even want to ID as queer.

Katie Klabusich · 8:46 PM

Yeah. I worry about appropriation, but don't feel like I have a broader community other than "non-heteronormative"

Aaminah Khan · 8:46 PM

Since poly is more about a relationship style than gender or sexuality, I think some of the poly people I've spoken to are reluctant to shelter under the queer umbrella, as it were.

Aaminah Khan · 8:47 PM

The idea that poly relationships have to be queer is very cisheteronormative, isn't it?

Aaminah Khan · 8:47 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Right, you can absolutely be hetero and poly.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:47 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I can't help but be excited for the future of human sexuality studies - we have such a larger vocabulary than we've ever had! Soon, we'll know so much more about these relationships as they normalize!”

Katie Klabusich · 8:47 PM

Yep. So is the whole "sex addict" assumption about poly people. // This is the debate, right? I didn't choose to be the type of person that doesn't pair bond. But I thrive on relationships vs one night stands.

Aaminah Khan · 8:47 PM

But historically, there are plenty of examples of cultures that practice(d) polygamy or polyandry, both of which are poly relationship styles involving cishet people.

Katie Klabusich · 8:48 PM

Yep. Totally. It's why I've never used the label queer.

Aaminah Khan · 8:48 PM

Bisexuals get the "sex addict" stereotype as well! I think it puts unfair pressure on people in two ways - either they feel like they have to have more sex or they have to have less sex than what they actually want.

Aaminah Khan · 8:49 PM

I have a pretty high sex drive (sorry if this is TMI) and people sometimes assume it's because I'm bi, whereas it's really just how I am. I was like that even before I came out to myself.

Katie Klabusich · 8:49 PM

If the phrase "friends with benefits" hadn't been stolen by Puritanical assholes afraid of the phrase "fuck buddy," I could just use that and skip the explanation headache.

Katie Klabusich · 8:49 PM

No such thing as TMI round here. These folks follow you and me on twitter. ;)

Aaminah Khan · 8:49 PM

Haha, then we're all good!

Aaminah Khan · 8:50 PM

The sex addict stereotype can cut both ways. People can try to have less sex so they don't fit the stereotype, or feel pressured to have more so they can prove they're "bi enough".

Aaminah Khan · 8:50 PM

Or poly enough.

Katie Klabusich · 8:50 PM

I don't so much need to define who I am with a label for my own comfort, but I struggle with it because I discuss it openly publicly. I never want to appropriate and if breaking down societal norms is the goal, agreed upon language is important.

Katie Klabusich · 8:50 PM

Ugh. That's rough.

Katie Klabusich · 8:50 PM

It's why I have trouble explaining what I'm looking for and need within hetero dating situations.

Aaminah Khan · 8:51 PM

I feel like if we accepted that "relationship" can mean two or more consenting adults in any combination of sexual/romantic connection, things would be a lot easier.

Katie Klabusich · 8:51 PM

"I don't pair bond" or "I don't want a commitment" = SEXAHOLIC.

Aaminah Khan · 8:51 PM

But "relationship" is another of those labels that people want to define in a certain way.

Katie Klabusich · 8:51 PM

<sigh>

Katie Klabusich · 8:51 PM

TOTALLY

Katie Klabusich · 8:51 PM

Jay. I just love you.

Katie Klabusich · 8:51 PM

Maybe that's the focus. More use of the words partner and relationship.

Aaminah Khan · 8:51 PM

If people here read captainawkward.com, she says great stuff about how even "casual relationships" are still relationships and require human decency, communication, etc.

Katie Klabusich · 8:51 PM

YAS

Katie Klabusich · 8:52 PM

Sorry, I got a little capscapscaps for a minute.

Aaminah Khan · 8:52 PM

There's this stigma about relationships that don't fit the monogamous, long-term mold, but in reality, everything from casually hooking up to marriage and babies is a relationship.

Katie Klabusich · 8:52 PM

Yeah, we think a relationship (or marriage) is only successful if we're in it till someone dies.

Katie Klabusich · 8:52 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“I didn't even know "poly" existed until... 5 or 6 years ago?”

Katie Klabusich · 8:52 PM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“If we just called everyone people, then we could start to understand each other better, I think, Love is the best tool to seek understanding with, in all ways.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:52 PM

People feel sorry for me like I haven't found "the one." Um, I've had several "ones."

Aaminah Khan · 8:52 PM

Exactly! There's this sense that you've "failed" if you don't end up with the picket fence and the 2.5 kids and the volvo in the driveway.

Katie Klabusich · 8:53 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“And I thought it related to a "certain type" of person that I would never relate with or want to be like.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:53 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“hahaha”

Katie Klabusich · 8:53 PM

It's the reason I talk about myself as non-heteronormative even though I'm cishet.

Aaminah Khan · 8:53 PM

And that's absolutely what some people want - I mean, it's partly what I want! - but it's not the only kind of relationship and definitely not the only kind of valid one.

Katie Klabusich · 8:53 PM

I'm not on the heteronormative conveyor belt -- and I didn't realize I could get off of it till I was 30.

Katie Klabusich · 8:53 PM

THIRTY

Katie Klabusich · 8:53 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“The poly thing sometimes feels like the "final frontier" because it's so taboo, and then I keep finding out that very stable, married people I know are actually poly!”

Katie Klabusich · 8:54 PM

That was a whole lot of unnecessary stress, feeling like I'd failed, etc. If I can help other people avoid that, then let's talk about it.

Aaminah Khan · 8:54 PM

I think non-heteronormative is a good term for that. You don't buy into ideas about what relationships "should" be even though you're cishet. That works.

Katie Klabusich · 8:54 PM

SWEET

Katie Klabusich · 8:54 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“So much this!”

Aaminah Khan · 8:54 PM

The idealisation of monogamous cishet relationships cemented by marriage is definitely a product of heteronormativity.

Katie Klabusich · 8:54 PM

I've sort of been looking for an "approval" stamp on that. OBVIOUSLY I don't assume you speak for all of the queer community, but I value your opinion as a friend and outspoken advocate.

Katie Klabusich · 8:55 PM

Leah -- I'm working on a poly talk. I just have to get schedules coordinated. There will be more. <3

Aaminah Khan · 8:55 PM

I think of my relationship as monogamous, but my partner and I are definitely open to short-term casual relationships with other women.

Katie Klabusich · 8:55 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“I thought it was a moral failing that I'm so good at falling in love with multiple people at the same time. And maybe it is. Or maybe I'm one of those people I didn't even know existed until 5 or 6 years ago. But I was in relationships where...”

Katie Klabusich · 8:55 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“...you didn't even talk about other people you might find attractive, because cheating and such”

Aaminah Khan · 8:56 PM

Those women wouldn't be part of our romantic life, but of course we'd still treat them with the dignity and respect with which we should treat all sexual partners.

Katie Klabusich · 8:56 PM

Absolutely.

Katie Klabusich · 8:56 PM

That's a convo I have to have if I meet poly people.

Aaminah Khan · 8:56 PM

So I guess we're monogamous romantically but open to being non-monogamous sexually under specific circumstances. Just one of many ways of being in a relationship.

Katie Klabusich · 8:56 PM

I'm not really a threesome person b/c ADD and I LOVE men, so I just kind of forget there's another woman in the room.

Katie Klabusich · 8:56 PM

So, there's a lot of "what are you looking for" upfront.

Aaminah Khan · 8:57 PM

I know people who are the opposite - they're fine with their partners having cuddle buddies etc who they're involved with in a more romantic but non-sexual sense.

Katie Klabusich · 8:57 PM

It's interesting what people are comfortable with. It's definitely about openness

Aaminah Khan · 8:57 PM

And communication! My partner and I have been together for three years and talked about this stuff a lot, including our needs/desires/boundaries.

Katie Klabusich · 8:57 PM

Most people walk around assuming everyone around them is into the cishet stereotypical lifestyle, love, sexual needs, etc. that they don't ask.

Katie Klabusich · 8:58 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“@jay I'm fighting making a "how YOU doin'" joke so hard and I just failed.”

Aaminah Khan · 8:58 PM

Yeah, people assume cishet and monogamous unless proven otherwise. Cisheteronormativity strikes again!

Katie Klabusich · 8:58 PM

DAMNIT

Aaminah Khan · 8:58 PM

Leah, cuddle-sluts are THE BEST. <3

Katie Klabusich · 8:58 PM

This is my reminder to follow Jay on twitter @jaythenerdkid

Katie Klabusich · 8:58 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Jay: That is how I have ALWAYS been. I identify as a cuddle-slut”

Katie Klabusich · 8:59 PM

And subscribe to her AWESOME blog -- http://jaythenerdkid.wordpress.com

Aaminah Khan · 8:59 PM

Warning: I swear a lot and I reeeeeeeally like the Colts. XD

Katie Klabusich · 8:59 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Amazing how very much we do not communicate as a species.”

Katie Klabusich · 8:59 PM

This is why we bonded. Feminist + football + nonheteronormativity. It was meant to be.

Katie Klabusich · 8:59 PM

;)

Katie Klabusich · 8:59 PM

Thank you SO much, Jay -- I really appreciate you taking the time.

Katie Klabusich · 8:59 PM

And thank you to everyone who came, read, asked questions and learned something!!

Aaminah Khan · 8:59 PM

This has been great! Sorry about my internet issues. Thank you so much for inviting me to do this.

Katie Klabusich · 9:00 PM

Absolutely. xoxo

Aaminah Khan · 9:00 PM

I could honestly talk about this stuff for hours (and often do)!

Katie Klabusich · 9:01 PM

She does, folks. Follow her and bug her to come back. ;)

Katie Klabusich · 9:02 PM

★ Spotlighted from Leah Barr

“Thanks for doing this, y'all!”

Katie Klabusich · 9:17 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“?Thank you both!”

Forum · 142

Forum· 142 comments

100 visitors

kelly mackinApr 9, 2014, 3:05 PM

very interesting topic. I will try and be here for this. Sadly, I used to be homophobic, I just didn't think about it. I am different now, who am I to stand in the way of how others feel. We all have our own paths in life and should not hinder others

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 7:59 PM★ Spotlighted

hello.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:00 PM

done.

Robin MaynardApr 15, 2014, 8:01 PM★ Spotlighted

howdy!

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:02 PM

the labels on the soul. There certainly is many missunderstandings about bisexual and queer.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:03 PM

Could it be described like alienation?

Robin MaynardApr 15, 2014, 8:03 PM★ Spotlighted

wonderful answer!

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:05 PM

exactly.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:05 PM

the label we put on people.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:05 PM

its not who THEY are its only one peice of them.

Robin MaynardApr 15, 2014, 8:06 PM★ Spotlighted

ok. i see a couple terms i do not know. ...cishet and xie. definition?

早早

早上好，欢迎早上好，欢迎Apr 15, 2014, 8:07 PM

she defined cishet when she used it xie is an alternate pronoun. again, defined when she used it

Robin MaynardApr 15, 2014, 8:07 PM

but i don't get it

Robin MaynardApr 15, 2014, 8:07 PM

ok. i'll scroll up, eh?

Robin MaynardApr 15, 2014, 8:08 PM

ok, thank you

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:08 PM

These kind of generalizations allow ignorant people to think they know someone, just from one word, that's insane.

Robin MaynardApr 15, 2014, 8:08 PM

thanky ou

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:10 PM

yes, be what you want. dont let anyone tell you its wrong.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:10 PM

those people only see one side of things.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:12 PM

all words are all in the context they are used. Literally now can be used as figuratively, you are not queer you are 2 people, who should be able to be free.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:13 PM★ Spotlighted

hmmm, so would you want to be called your name or queer?

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:13 PM

exactly.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:14 PM

we need to get beyond labels, they allow us to judge people with illusions created by mainstream tv.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:14 PM★ Spotlighted

Hi Katie and Aaminah! <3

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:15 PM

exactly.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:15 PM★ Spotlighted

The trouble is they can't see you tell them to hit "refresh" until after they hit refresh - it took me a minute since this is my first time here and all

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:15 PM

if i don't know your name I will say you.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:16 PM

I used to be homophobic, but I chose to grow as a human being, I have learned from my own ignorance.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:17 PM

intersting, are you saying talking with certian individuals, it seemed ok?

Paul CApr 15, 2014, 8:17 PM★ Spotlighted

I disagree Kelly. I think labels are pretty essential to building a community. Especially in the bisexual community whose very existence is constantly questioned.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:18 PM

that would be a problem most people have jsut many in other ways.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:18 PM

addiction.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:18 PM

that is the alienation syndrom, comes from the pressures of the environment of others jusdgeing you.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:18 PM

judgeing.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:19 PM★ Spotlighted

*Moment of silence for the #greenpeoplebelike hashtag*

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:20 PM

And that' ok, others should not judge how someone is going to feel, once we get away from that fear, its very uplifting.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:21 PM★ Spotlighted

I get that a lot too. But then when I was questioning whether I might be bi or not, a friend totally shut me down because I've never slept with a girl, and a whole room full of lesbians said bless your heart, you're just confused.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:21 PM

I can see how it would be paul, I am speaking to the times when it gets used very loosely to judge.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:22 PM★ Spotlighted

Right

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:23 PM

for ex. on mainstream news (think it was fox) a reverend said "gay people think differently, and so do pedophiles and murderers. THAT is when these labels get used by the influences of tv stereotypes.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:23 PM

And that promotes the division in people to create the alienation syndrom.

Paul CApr 15, 2014, 8:24 PM★ Spotlighted

I only have a couple of instances of that kind of biphobia. Twice at my city's Pride celebration last year I was told I was actually gay. Oh and my friend read on the internet that some gay guys use bisexuality as a stepping stone to being gay so he'

Paul CApr 15, 2014, 8:24 PM★ Spotlighted

*he's convinced that I'm doing that too.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:24 PM

aaminah, Is if just the way you feel right?

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:25 PM

And are you hurting anyone?

Paul CApr 15, 2014, 8:25 PM★ Spotlighted

I keep trying to tell him that!

Leonard Part 6Apr 15, 2014, 8:25 PM

I think every 13 year old should be provided with a computer, tube of lube, and a roll of paper towels. Then we bombard them with erotic images for 1 hour with them rating "hot" or "not," then we can tally the percents and give them an orientation.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:26 PM

??? leonard?

Leonard Part 6Apr 15, 2014, 8:26 PM

That way the straight ones prove they're straight and the gay ones prove they're gay and the moral majority can rest in peace.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:27 PM

*slowclap.gif*

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:27 PM

any relationship runs that risk, life is not some plan, it reveals itself to you.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:27 PM

exactily katie.

Leonard Part 6Apr 15, 2014, 8:27 PM

Yeah but the backwards people can only think in black and white.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:28 PM

you could get hit by a car tomorrow, life is full of possibilities,

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:28 PM

I am warking on the problem right now.

Leonard Part 6Apr 15, 2014, 8:28 PM

I think of all the reasons relationships end, exploring one's sexuality is not the most pressing or most damaging. *Shrug*

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:29 PM★ Spotlighted

It can be very difficult to be candid about, but that's the best solution I can come up with thus far. I still don't with my family, though. Just friends.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:29 PM

Society need the mental shift by understanding ego and going above it.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:30 PM★ Spotlighted

Having even just one understanding partner makes a huge world of difference.

Leonard Part 6Apr 15, 2014, 8:31 PM

So Jay I has a question, how often do you have people making comments to your boyfriend or giving him probs because his girlfriend likes girls too? Is that a problem you encounter?

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:32 PM★ Spotlighted

I went and followed @flyingteacosy in the meantime on Twitter. Good stuff!

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:32 PM★ Spotlighted

I really like "asking for straight pride is like asking for able-bodied parking spaces"

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:32 PM

the human experience with interaction with one another, is actually quit incredible, but it is takin for granted and most people do not understand it.

Heidi GerbrachtApr 15, 2014, 8:32 PM★ Spotlighted

Hey Katie and Jay!

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:33 PM

its always been there, and is in the background, just like money is WAY more then most people know, Its the cuase of poverty and war and politics.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:34 PM

I just wanna say one thing, I understand you more from your name, then that label.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:34 PM

but with certian people it can tell them alot, if they are comfortable with you.\

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:35 PM★ Spotlighted

Katie - yes, certainly I did. It was hard enough even before Cara was just point blank "No you aren't" after I confided in her that I think I might be bi.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 8:35 PM★ Spotlighted

Cnn someone please explain the term femme to me?

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:35 PM★ Spotlighted

She was the first female crush I ever admitted to having. It was like, that added this extra level of "oh. ouch."

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:35 PM

if its CNN using it, its probably way off key rebecca LOL.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:37 PM★ Spotlighted

I... think it means just presenting in like, stereotypically feminine ways? I'm not certain on a good definition for "femme" though.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 8:39 PM★ Spotlighted

Thanks! I think words are one of the first lines of defense in changing our thoughts. I want to get it right! :)

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:39 PM★ Spotlighted

Right, so "cis femme" is probably more descriptive than just saying "woman."

Leonard Part 6Apr 15, 2014, 8:39 PM

You should be sorry. We were worried sick!

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:39 PM

So, I often have asked. Were you born this way, or was it a choice later in life?

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:39 PM★ Spotlighted

I guess we forgive you THIS time Jay :-p

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 8:40 PM★ Spotlighted

That sucks, Leah. I think the human experience is to have a few crappy relationships, though - it kind of helps you sort out what you want, what you'll stand for, all of that. As you get older and more confident, it gets WAY better.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:40 PM

yep.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:42 PM

I used to describe myself as "the girliest girl who ever girl'd" and then I saw the Youtube channel for albinwonderland. >.<

Leonard Part 6Apr 15, 2014, 8:42 PM

What do you think of people who identify as non-human (otherkin, therian, etc.) and how does this relate to people who identify outside their birth gender, if at all?

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:43 PM★ Spotlighted

Macho?

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:43 PM★ Spotlighted

I like like that answer its best to ask.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 8:44 PM

Me, too, Kelly! The terms you use for yourself - including the terms you use for your genitalia - can be very triggery, and rightly so - it's all very personal and these words gain meaning from our environments.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:45 PM

YA, thats right.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:45 PM

it cn be used, good or bad.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:45 PM

tv gives us bad ideas of the term usage.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:46 PM★ Spotlighted

Right, you can absolutely be hetero and poly.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:46 PM

but I am learning more about the other way labels can be useful here.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 8:46 PM★ Spotlighted

I can't help but be excited for the future of human sexuality studies - we have such a larger vocabulary than we've ever had! Soon, we'll know so much more about these relationships as they normalize!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 8:47 PM

By which I mean, ALL of us have been very limited as to what we have accepted as possible.

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:49 PM

aleination syndrom rebecca?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 8:49 PM

Yes.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:51 PM★ Spotlighted

I didn't even know "poly" existed until... 5 or 6 years ago?

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:51 PM★ Spotlighted

If we just called everyone people, then we could start to understand each other better, I think, Love is the best tool to seek understanding with, in all ways.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:51 PM★ Spotlighted

And I thought it related to a "certain type" of person that I would never relate with or want to be like.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:52 PM★ Spotlighted

hahaha

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:52 PM

relationship means so many different things to different people. Ex, I see every human encounter a relationship.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:52 PM★ Spotlighted

The poly thing sometimes feels like the "final frontier" because it's so taboo, and then I keep finding out that very stable, married people I know are actually poly!

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:53 PM

ya people should look looking for a 1 not the 1

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:53 PM★ Spotlighted

So much this!

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:54 PM★ Spotlighted

I thought it was a moral failing that I'm so good at falling in love with multiple people at the same time. And maybe it is. Or maybe I'm one of those people I didn't even know existed until 5 or 6 years ago. But I was in relationships where...

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:55 PM★ Spotlighted

...you didn't even talk about other people you might find attractive, because cheating and such

kelly mackinApr 15, 2014, 8:55 PM

How important is marriage?

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:55 PM

I don't even know if that's what Allen and I am. I just know he's one of only 2 people with whom I've actually been comfortable enough to even talk about it.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:56 PM★ Spotlighted

@jay I'm fighting making a "how YOU doin'" joke so hard and I just failed.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:57 PM★ Spotlighted

Jay: That is how I have ALWAYS been. I identify as a cuddle-slut

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 8:58 PM★ Spotlighted

Amazing how very much we do not communicate as a species.

Leah BarrApr 15, 2014, 9:00 PM★ Spotlighted

Thanks for doing this, y'all!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerApr 15, 2014, 9:05 PM★ Spotlighted

?Thank you both!

Cass KApr 17, 2014, 12:45 AM

I've heard some people say that "queer" is more than just an identity, that it's more about your politics. Do you agree with this and how would you explain queer from a political standpoint (I'm kind of confused tbh)?

zack moApr 23, 2014, 10:06 PM

Babybre PettitMay 16, 2014, 4:36 PM

Am I the only bisexual

Babybre PettitMay 16, 2014, 4:36 PM

Hello

Need a kik SlaveMay 18, 2014, 2:00 PM

Need a kik SlaveMay 18, 2014, 2:01 PM

If anyone would like to be my slave or mistress kik me @ Jjuyyy11

Need a kik SlaveMay 18, 2014, 2:01 PM

If anyone would like to be my slave or mistress kik me @ Jjuyyy11

Kee NealMay 21, 2014, 1:45 AM

nicholas harrisMay 22, 2014, 8:22 PM

Hi I am bisexual and people treat and act differently around me why is that?

chasity WilliamsJun 13, 2014, 3:52 AM

Because people think that just because your bisexual gay lesbian or whatever your sexual preference is that your not a person or not worth any thing. I say that's bull s*** I love everybody no matter their sexual preference. I have many friends that

chasity WilliamsJun 13, 2014, 3:53 AM

Are gay lesbian and bisexual. Just Becuase you have a different sexual preference doesn't mean your not a good person

omair mohammedJun 15, 2014, 12:06 AM

nHi

omair mohammedJun 15, 2014, 12:07 AM

Emily reedJun 15, 2014, 4:17 AM

Emily reedJun 15, 2014, 4:18 AM

David JohnsonJun 17, 2014, 4:06 PM

Heyyy ppl

Mary Jane WatsonJun 23, 2014, 9:35 PM

Hey

bader naserJun 28, 2014, 7:11 AM

hi hiw are you to day

sav looooveJul 1, 2014, 5:42 AM

Hey

Ashely ValdezJul 6, 2014, 1:26 AM

Hi Aaminah

machelito MonteroJul 7, 2014, 7:42 PM

Hello ?

nik taylorJul 9, 2014, 1:13 AM

Hey

nik taylorJul 9, 2014, 1:13 AM

Hey

nik taylorJul 9, 2014, 1:13 AM

Hinn

nik taylorJul 9, 2014, 1:14 AM

18 m someone hmu on kik jjohnson181

jace WilliamsJul 14, 2014, 3:00 AM

Hey

H�

Hunter Jewell 😘Jul 20, 2014, 1:00 PM

Hii

tom smithAug 24, 2014, 1:12 AM

Hello!! :)

Kenz <3Sep 9, 2014, 10:13 PM

Love is love ^.^

xiaveir whiteOct 26, 2014, 5:10 PM

Hey

xiaveir whiteOct 26, 2014, 5:10 PM

It's good