Jordan Birnbaum

Host

Manipulating Maslow's Needs Theory

Dec 18, 2013·55 visitors

John Baker

Cohost

Stage· 214 messages

Dec 18, 2013

A look at how understanding Maslow's Needs Theory allows for meta-manipulation of civilization. You know, light and fluffy stuff!

John Baker · 1:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“SO excited for this Tawk!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

Mr. Baker, I presume?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

Ok, while we're waiting, let's contrast Rebecca's enthusiasm with Rick's cynicism.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“As a trained therapist (HE and Gestalt) my considered opinion is that Maslow's theories were of extremely limited utility in real-time therapy, and as substantial as cotton candy. So I'm looking forward to hearing a non-gibberish, in-depth”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“expanation of Maslow's sophomoric Needs Theory allows for manipulation of civilization. 'meta' or otherwise.”

John Baker · 2:06 AM

Indeed, and Mr Birnbaum?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

Hello John! What a pleasure to finally have you as a co-host!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:07 AM

I am usually enjoying your comments from the forum…

John Baker · 2:07 AM

Thank you, it was a pleasure to be invited.

John Baker · 2:07 AM

The refresh demons are misbehaving

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

Well I think it's a cool story how this Tawk got started.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

You were in the forum for a Tawk I was doing

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

I don't recall which one

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

but you mentioned that you had a theory about how Maslow's Needs Hierarchy was manipulated for political gain.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

And I had thought about the exact same concept

John Baker · 2:09 AM

Ah, yes. I think it was regarding United Blue

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

so it really struck a chord

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

OK -so before we begin in earnest, I just want to say to Rick…

John Baker · 2:09 AM

or... Unite Blue?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:10 AM

That while the scientific merit of Maslow's theories are in fact disproven…

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:10 AM

it does not render the entire concept useless for the purposes of approximating human behavior

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

so there! POW!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

How do you feel about that, Jon?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

john?

John Baker · 2:11 AM

I'm just here for the t-shirt. Double POW!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

Nice!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Conjecture vs. historical fact, anyone?”

John Baker · 2:12 AM

I would say that a lot of things old and new can find new life and respect, with new ways of looking at them

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:12 AM

If I thought it was a good point, Rick, I'd say "touché." Instead I say "douche."

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:13 AM

I THINK I hear you guys laughing through your computers…

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Oh, Rick, let him Tawk it out.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Not me. I'm loading the AK47”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“It's probably more toward the philosophical side, anyway, which is where you place Maslow's Theory, anyhow.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“True. But it does damage when represented as a therapeutic technique.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

fair point

John Baker · 2:14 AM

@Rick For instance, as a therapist you know that stability, with regard to basic necessities is beneficial and quite necessary for many consumers, and in that vein is how I look at Maslow's in the political sphere

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

Ok John - given that we've both contemplated the same stuff, why don't we start out with a general definition of the theory.

John Baker · 2:15 AM

great, i'm late and already lost

John Baker · 2:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I might say that stability is the enemy of consumerism.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

I think consumerism is doing OK…

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

So here's the theory we're all tawking about. This guy Maslow said that human needs can be ranked in order of importance.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

and he put them in a pyramid, with the most important at the bottom.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

where does make-up fall into it?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

I think make-up is pretty close to the top

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

Amway considered it a necessity

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

perspective is everything

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

so here are the levels of needs:

John Baker · 2:19 AM

Well I don't think there was a pyramid but yes. I view it a bit differently

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

first - physiological, like breathing, eating, sleeping, etc.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

second -s afety; third - love and belonging

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

fourth he called "esteem," meaning how we feel about ourselves

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

and the highest order need was called self actualization

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

and the big idea was that you could not concern yourself with a higher level need until all of the lower level needs are met

John Baker · 2:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Rick, I get what you're saying about consumerism - there has to be a conflict, or at least, conflict seems to encourage the market.”

John Baker · 2:22 AM

Theres where my view differs slightly and why it isn't a lock as far as what to expect

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:22 AM

right - so neither of us fully agree with Maslow's theory

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:22 AM

but that's what the dude was saying

John Baker · 2:22 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

anything to add-on your perspective of the theory?

John Baker · 2:23 AM

Nah. I'm ready for meat and potatoes (thanks Quayle)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Wait! Ha! I get it! We're being manipulated through the manipulation of our needs for love and belonging through the medium of advertising!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

lol John!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

check your spell check!

John Baker · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Advertising is the creation of need, not the validation of it.”

John Baker · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“To be fair, Rosner, Freud and Jung have their own problems and inconsistencies.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

OK, so try to give me the broad outline of the theory you mentioned from the forum in that fateful Tawk

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“I think it's a good theory, but as a hierarchy it kind of falls apart.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:25 AM

agreed. human behavior is hard to categorize - it's merely a tool for wild speculation, which I love to do…

John Baker · 2:26 AM

At its simplest, I'd say that policy makers use the idea of the hierarchy to manipulate the voting public

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:26 AM

agreed

John Baker · 2:26 AM

And by policy makers, I mean the people behind the scenes - for the msot part

John Baker · 2:27 AM

More specifically that politicians write law and enact policy to disenfranchise voters

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

So, as a way to imagine this…

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

if you are worried about fulfilling your base level needs for food and safety

John Baker · 2:28 AM

You won't have the time or energy to focus on ther things.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

you will not have the mental space available to devote to your higher-level needs

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

political dissidence is a higher level need

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

conceptualizing the rights of the citizenry is a higher level need

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“So, keep people striving to get by, so they feel as though they can't self-actualize eventually, and then go on to challenge the status quo?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

shazam!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Yep, that's it, Dale!”

John Baker · 2:29 AM

Yes, but also the things that engender that mindset such as having a stable community

John Baker · 2:30 AM

A safe community. So people worry about putting food on the table and whats out there to hurt their family, community etc

John Baker · 2:31 AM

Each facet of the ladder is exploited to appeal to some demographic. Whether it be class and Reagan's infamous "Welfare Queen" speech or another nation taking jobs

John Baker · 2:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Ninjas make communities more stable, that's true.”

John Baker · 2:32 AM

@Rebbeca yes

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:32 AM

So John, in addition to blocking higher-level needs they also make appeals to various levels of the pyramid.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I don't know, Jordan. Political dissidence= higher need. Spartacus and the slave rebellion/”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

let's take on a little dissidence

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“In the case of something like the Spartacus rebellion, you had people so destitute their basic needs weren't being met at all. So they rebelled simply for food and shelter. Modern governments have learned from the past.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

See, Rick, I would argue that because their lower level needs were unmet, they were forced to act

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:34 AM

if they had just enough food, however, it probably wouldn't have hap[pened.

John Baker · 2:34 AM

Yes, but there lay the need to keep a basic stability with ideas like the Middle Class, the American Spirit/Dream

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“That's the thing, Rick - when it gets SO BAD that you have nothing to lose, then dissidence is no big thing. I think that's why they try so hard to make us apathetic. "Eh, why try?"”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

Exactly -the nuance is keeping these needs barely met, and in perpetual danger of going away, that would keep us from escalating up the pyramid to higher-level goals

John Baker · 2:35 AM

That's where modern US consumerism takes over. It acts a form of self-medication

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

So here's an interesting twist from history

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

let's take the French Revolution

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:36 AM

The French Revolution was ignited by wealthy students

John Baker · 2:36 AM

@Rick I am not familiar with Joe Hill

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:36 AM

all of their lower levels needs were met

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:36 AM

which allowed them to consider higher level needs

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

which allowed them to realize that the aristocracy was a bunch of assholes

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

and then, boom.

John Baker · 2:37 AM

I think that points to the behavior of our education industry, or, rather the private education industry

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Liphan Lee

“the aristocracy was/is ALWAYS a buncha assholes”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

John - please expand?

John Baker · 2:38 AM

I'll use Reagan again as hes such an exmplar of how to hurt progress

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:38 AM

amen brother

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Synje Burke

“unless you have the capacity to realize this and not live in fear, many people reach higher levels despite what the government and corporations are trying to do”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:38 AM

(I bet synje agrees with us)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:38 AM

on Reagan, I mean…

John Baker · 2:39 AM

California has a University system that was started before Reagan became governor. One of the tent poles of his political tent was Communism and he used the political activism (particualrly at UC Berkeley) to attack public higher education

John Baker · 2:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Synje Burke

“synje has an open mind”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

Synje has a good sense of word efficiency

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Dude, it's true. A lot of people reach higher levels despite all kinds of obstacles.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

some people never come down

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

lol Rick II!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Reagan, that prick. His words when CA Gov. made it possible for the Gov. of Ohio to sned the Nat' Guard to Kent State.”

John Baker · 2:41 AM

He used the fear of Communism to press the UC system because it was dangerously close to Socialism. however, it was dangerously close to throwing out the crap (conservative ideals)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

So dismantling of the education system made it easier to manipulate the masses?

John Baker · 2:42 AM

With the switch of revenue sharing to block grants of public education during his presidency, a lot of state higher education got hurt in the pocket book. This caused a lot to adopt a tuition model

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:43 AM

which to the feudal system known as student loans?

John Baker · 2:43 AM

Yes, education is paramount to the ideal of self-actualizaion and the way it binds people and communities

John Baker · 2:43 AM

It also has the more practical purpose of restricting a valuable resource or the ablity to gather other resources via employment

John Baker · 2:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Kennedys' dead, Reagan survived. Who says there's a God?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:44 AM

John, you've mentioned community a few times. Do you see that as one of the primary victims of this type of needs manipulation?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:44 AM

moses

John Baker · 2:44 AM

Well actually the 2.5 million at Sinai but thats neither here nor there

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

so we have a lot of people saying there's a God…

John Baker · 2:45 AM

Very much so. Community is a human necessity

John Baker · 2:45 AM

and sexy sexy dancing

John Baker · 2:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Blame it on the bossa nova, with it's magic spell.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:46 AM

OK , are there any other specific examples of how policy is manipulated to sustain this type of needs-based control?

John Baker · 2:46 AM

Community participation gives people strength and hope and when community suffers, everyone in it suffers

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Well, according to EF Schumacher, community can't help but suffer as materialism takes hold of a society. People don't cooperate as well in capitalist cultures.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:47 AM

When we see attacks against food stamps, for example, what do you think about?

John Baker · 2:47 AM

Any funding of basic needs is anathema to most conservative politicians

John Baker · 2:47 AM

Funding by the government that is

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:48 AM

I wonder whether they think about it from the specific perspectives we articulate here

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:48 AM

Or if they find other ways to justify it to themselves…

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“So, wait...people are not participating in government nearly as much as in the past. Is that a symptom of community breakdown?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

probably

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“And...is it deliberately manipulated?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

probably

John Baker · 2:49 AM

When people like Boehner shake their fists at the government (the people) for helping people have more stable lives, I see them looking at their own death mask. Food insecurity is a very big issue around the world and its affects are devestating to s

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“No, it's probably a sign that Government is working as it was intended.”

John Baker · 2:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Dale, that's creepy and probably true. Gross.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:51 AM

So what are some of the ramifications of keeping people in a state of perpetual uncertainty around their most fundamental needs?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Synje Burke

“Very positive if you are holding the puppet strings”

John Baker · 2:53 AM

People do not progress. Although there is the rub with Maslows it doesnt predict a E V DebbsMartin Luther King or Malcolm X or a Fredrick Douglas or a Susan B Anthony or a host of other dissidents to the system.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:54 AM

Yes, and after all, the Tawk is entitled MANIPULATING Maslow's theory, not evangelizing it…

John Baker · 2:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“People will, I would think, tend to have worldviews centering around "getting theirs" rather than those that favor any kind of action that would shake the foundation that suplies their basic needs.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:54 AM

The theory is broken, but it allows us to communicate big ideas with fewer words, so it's useful.

John Baker · 2:54 AM

We are all Buddhas in waiting

John Baker · 2:55 AM

Lanuage is the most effective tool for manipulation as its the only tool we have for reality. Death Tax.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:55 AM

Dale - that's the question! Or would the majority of us take a far more community-oriented view if our basic needs were met?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:56 AM

Here's an interesting twist on that: think about all the really good people in really evil jobs, like rejecting insurance claims or something

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Or selling advertising”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

you think they wouldn't prefer another job?

John Baker · 2:58 AM

Most people, I would think, would like to do anything other than what they are doing. Whether it's strugglingto survive or sitting in an office all day talking to clients or customers

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Maybe not evil, just soul destroying.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“ANd if your soul is dead, are you going to revolt? Hell no! Veg out in front of the Plasma screen!”

John Baker · 2:58 AM

But we all do have to survive and that takes time and energy

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

Is it naive to think that we could structure our society to meet all of our lower level needs?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

and construct an economy that is completely non-exploitative?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“Competition drives progress. Groups don't do great things, not really. People like Martin Luther or Genghis Khan do.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

I mean, they did it in Star Trek…

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Liphan Lee

“@Jordan yes”

John Baker · 3:00 AM

Ghengis Khan didnt roll over the countryside with just his horse. Luther would just have been some dick nailing a piece of paper to a door. and thats where community is needed and does great and terrible things

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

good point, John-o

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Ah, Dale, I used to think that...but without the context, there would be no Martin Luther, Ghengis Kanh, George Bush. Context is everything!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“They can do it in the name of a group, or the group can co-opt the ideas of great men and women. But the groups are still driven by visionaries. Ones who have "self-actualized", if you will.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

Touche, Dale-o

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“But if nobody follows a visionary (or funds him), he's a crackpot and dies in an alley somewhere.”

John Baker · 3:01 AM

Malcolm X subverted himself by allowing himself to be absorbed by a community.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

this is like watching a tennis match

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:02 AM

so where does this leave us, John? are we closer to understanding how our social structures have arrived here?

John Baker · 3:03 AM

Given time, I think anyone can approximate a similar idea, but time is a precious resource. And perception, everyone may see the same picture but not its vision. We are all art

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

wow, that's deeep, man

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

deep

John Baker · 3:04 AM

Like a pizza from Chicago, I hope

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

is there any other type of deep worth mentioning?!?!

John Baker · 3:04 AM

Deep pockets?

John Baker · 3:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Upraised fist!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

Deep pockets - people get lost in there

John Baker · 3:05 AM

and ideals, conversation is a good first step though for keeping dreams alive. I think it's the most human thing we do is share ourselves

John Baker · 3:05 AM

Hence, Tawkers

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

well said my friend.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“@ Rosner: Joe Hill wrote "There is Power in a Union!" I am being folk-schooled right here in front of everyone!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

Hey @Rosner, why don't you do a Tawk on important people none of us know about…

John Baker · 3:06 AM

Yes!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Not a bad idea . . .”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

OK, Mr. Baker? What'd you think? Did you enjoy it?

John Baker · 3:07 AM

I did. It takes some handling but the ride gets smoother

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

you did great! tonight was so fun!

John Baker · 3:08 AM

Thank you very much for this opportunity to talk to everyone

John Baker · 3:08 AM

"tawk"

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

thanks to my old and new friends in the forum

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

I really enjoyed the give and take tonight

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Thanks, guys! Bye, Rebecca.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dale Gaskins

“It's been a pleasure!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Nice job, especially considering the chatter from the peanut gallery. ;)”

John Baker · 3:09 AM

Thanks Dale, Rebecca, Rick, Liphan everyone

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

John, you are a pillar of the Tawkers community, and I'm honored to have done your first Tawk with you.

John Baker · 3:10 AM

and Mr Birnbaum. I'm honored to be thought of as so and I'm glad I had you as my guide

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:10 AM

PS - this takes our friendship to a new level. Now you have to help me move.

John Baker · 3:10 AM

and I have to convince you to become an Urban minimalist

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

Hell, me and McCandless are having a beer on Friday night…

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

I am wide open to that!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

sounds like another Tawk in the making

John Baker · 3:11 AM

Indeed. Until then. Goodnight Detroit!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Good night, all - that was really fun!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

night all. thanks for reminding me I'm not alone.

Forum · 102

Forum· 102 comments

55 visitors

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 6, 2013, 1:13 AM★ Spotlighted

SO excited for this Tawk!

Tawkers AdminDec 6, 2013, 8:16 PM

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Tawkers AdminDec 6, 2013, 8:17 PM

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Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

As a trained therapist (HE and Gestalt) my considered opinion is that Maslow's theories were of extremely limited utility in real-time therapy, and as substantial as cotton candy. So I'm looking forward to hearing a non-gibberish, in-depth

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

expanation of Maslow's sophomoric Needs Theory allows for manipulation of civilization. 'meta' or otherwise.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:10 AM

Evenin' Rick.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Conjecture vs. historical fact, anyone?

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:12 AM

Hello rebecca!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:13 AM★ Spotlighted

Oh, Rick, let him Tawk it out.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:13 AM★ Spotlighted

Not me. I'm loading the AK47

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:13 AM★ Spotlighted

It's probably more toward the philosophical side, anyway, which is where you place Maslow's Theory, anyhow.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:14 AM★ Spotlighted

True. But it does damage when represented as a therapeutic technique.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:14 AM

And, if you shoot your computer, then you can't be here with us or try to zing Lucy anymore.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:15 AM★ Spotlighted

I might say that stability is the enemy of consumerism.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:16 AM

We do consume. And excrete. Alot

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:18 AM

(as an aside, Rick, I'm not as studied as you are on the matter, but my feeling is that Maslow's Theory can sort of work as a guideline for making guesses about human motivations, but people can function at high levels without basic needs met)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:18 AM

(SO it's not an absolute and not a great predictor)

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:18 AM

It's not bad - just obvious.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:21 AM★ Spotlighted

Rick, I get what you're saying about consumerism - there has to be a conflict, or at least, conflict seems to encourage the market.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:22 AM

I dislike Maslow (also) for his dismissal of Freud, Jung et.c His single-minded focus on the positive and avoidance of the negatives in reality.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:22 AM★ Spotlighted

Wait! Ha! I get it! We're being manipulated through the manipulation of our needs for love and belonging through the medium of advertising!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:24 AM★ Spotlighted

To be fair, Rosner, Freud and Jung have their own problems and inconsistencies.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:24 AM★ Spotlighted

Advertising is the creation of need, not the validation of it.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:24 AM

I mean, the whole world isn't about a latent desire to have sex with your parents.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:24 AM

That's gross.

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 2:24 AM★ Spotlighted

I think it's a good theory, but as a hierarchy it kind of falls apart.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:25 AM

Exactly, Rick. Advertising makes you feel like something is missing. Like you don't have enough or aren't good enough.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:25 AM

No one said Germans and/or Austrians are perfect.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:26 AM

But they're better than the French! (that's a joke, btw)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:26 AM

Wait - didn't Hitler sort of imply that?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:26 AM

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:28 AM

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:29 AM

And if you have to raise a kid you weren't sure you were ready for, you're less likely to be a political dissident.

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 2:29 AM★ Spotlighted

So, keep people striving to get by, so they feel as though they can't self-actualize eventually, and then go on to challenge the status quo?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:29 AM★ Spotlighted

Yep, that's it, Dale!

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:29 AM★ Spotlighted

I don't know, Jordan. Political dissidence= higher need. Spartacus and the slave rebellion/

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:30 AM

not/, ?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:30 AM

John, is that sort of the whole "political parties appealing to the ideal you have of America," despite what they actually do in office?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:31 AM★ Spotlighted

Ninjas make communities more stable, that's true.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:31 AM

Or more recently, Joe Hill and then Union movements.

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 2:31 AM★ Spotlighted

In the case of something like the Spartacus rebellion, you had people so destitute their basic needs weren't being met at all. So they rebelled simply for food and shelter. Modern governments have learned from the past.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:32 AM

Oh, come on! I can't believe that got spotlighted!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:32 AM

Spotlit?

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:32 AM

Exactly. This is in contrast to the argument being made on the left side of the screen.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:34 AM

One size fits all?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:34 AM★ Spotlighted

That's the thing, Rick - when it gets SO BAD that you have nothing to lose, then dissidence is no big thing. I think that's why they try so hard to make us apathetic. "Eh, why try?"

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:34 AM

If you'd like, chose my Joe Hill example.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:35 AM

choose

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:36 AM

*sigh. Now I have to look up your reference because I don't understand it.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:36 AM

And too much bordelaise sauce

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:37 AM

@John, Union organizer, murdered.

Liphan LeeDec 18, 2013, 2:37 AM★ Spotlighted

the aristocracy was/is ALWAYS a buncha assholes

Synje BurkeDec 18, 2013, 2:37 AM★ Spotlighted

unless you have the capacity to realize this and not live in fear, many people reach higher levels despite what the government and corporations are trying to do

Synje BurkeDec 18, 2013, 2:39 AM★ Spotlighted

synje has an open mind

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:39 AM★ Spotlighted

Dude, it's true. A lot of people reach higher levels despite all kinds of obstacles.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:40 AM★ Spotlighted

Reagan, that prick. His words when CA Gov. made it possible for the Gov. of Ohio to sned the Nat' Guard to Kent State.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:42 AM★ Spotlighted

Kennedys' dead, Reagan survived. Who says there's a God?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:43 AM

No argument there.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:44 AM

He's dead, too.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:45 AM★ Spotlighted

Blame it on the bossa nova, with it's magic spell.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:46 AM★ Spotlighted

Well, according to EF Schumacher, community can't help but suffer as materialism takes hold of a society. People don't cooperate as well in capitalist cultures.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:46 AM

I feel better. No mention of the name Maslow for a while.

Synje BurkeDec 18, 2013, 2:47 AM

maslow

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:47 AM

Swine.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:48 AM

I had an anathema last week. i feel much cleaner.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:49 AM★ Spotlighted

So, wait...people are not participating in government nearly as much as in the past. Is that a symptom of community breakdown?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:49 AM★ Spotlighted

And...is it deliberately manipulated?

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 2:49 AM★ Spotlighted

No, it's probably a sign that Government is working as it was intended.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:50 AM★ Spotlighted

Dale, that's creepy and probably true. Gross.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:51 AM

Shrinking middle class!

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:51 AM

@Rebecca: "I dreamed i saw Joe Hill last might, alive as you or me. Says I but Joe your 10 years dead - I never died, said he. . . . what they can never kill went on to organize."

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:52 AM

you're

Synje BurkeDec 18, 2013, 2:52 AM★ Spotlighted

Very positive if you are holding the puppet strings

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:52 AM

@ Rick: I've heard that song! I've got Youtube homework after class.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:52 AM

Joan Baez

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:53 AM

That's it!

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:53 AM

Still gives me chills.

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 2:54 AM★ Spotlighted

People will, I would think, tend to have worldviews centering around "getting theirs" rather than those that favor any kind of action that would shake the foundation that suplies their basic needs.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:55 AM

John, I think you're onto something. Humans are in a really awkward stage. They keep needing to evolve but not managing to do so.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:55 AM

How many more lifetimes do I have to wait?

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 2:55 AM

And that's why people like Siddartha were born rich, not poor.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:57 AM

Dale, I hear you. But I think that's cultivated. The division and the competition. Cooperation is the quality that allowed humans to form groups and get this far - I think it's more our nature than, say, capitalism.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:57 AM★ Spotlighted

Or selling advertising

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:57 AM★ Spotlighted

Maybe not evil, just soul destroying.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:58 AM★ Spotlighted

ANd if your soul is dead, are you going to revolt? Hell no! Veg out in front of the Plasma screen!

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 2:58 AM★ Spotlighted

Competition drives progress. Groups don't do great things, not really. People like Martin Luther or Genghis Khan do.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 2:58 AM

Unless you kill yourself.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 2:59 AM

Indeed, Rick. There's always that.

Liphan LeeDec 18, 2013, 2:59 AM★ Spotlighted

@Jordan yes

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 3:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Ah, Dale, I used to think that...but without the context, there would be no Martin Luther, Ghengis Kanh, George Bush. Context is everything!

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 3:00 AM★ Spotlighted

They can do it in the name of a group, or the group can co-opt the ideas of great men and women. But the groups are still driven by visionaries. Ones who have "self-actualized", if you will.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 3:00 AM

In a sense, we're all responsible for each other.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 3:00 AM

you mean Two Jews in Space, J.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 3:01 AM★ Spotlighted

But if nobody follows a visionary (or funds him), he's a crackpot and dies in an alley somewhere.

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 3:03 AM

Read history book, particularly the influence of Jewish montheism, Greek philosophy and Roman law.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 3:04 AM★ Spotlighted

@ Rosner: Joe Hill wrote "There is Power in a Union!" I am being folk-schooled right here in front of everyone!

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 3:04 AM★ Spotlighted

Upraised fist!

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 3:06 AM★ Spotlighted

Not a bad idea . . .

Rick RosnerDec 18, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks, guys! Bye, Rebecca.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

Nice job, especially considering the chatter from the peanut gallery. ;)

Dale Gaskins Dec 18, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

It's been a pleasure!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 18, 2013, 3:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Good night, all - that was really fun!