Andrei Berman

Host

Mental Illness and Guns

Dec 24, 2012·1,109 visitors

Will Staton

Cohost

Stage· 243 messages

Dec 24, 2012

Will Staton · 1:00 AM

how do I tawk?

Will Staton · 1:00 AM

seemed to have figured it out

Will Staton · 1:01 AM

do we have Drei here?

Will Staton · 1:01 AM

and Jordan I think I got three votes

Will Staton · 1:01 AM

but since I didn't campaign, and I was living in Missouri at the time I'll take it

Andrei Berman · 1:01 AM

I am here but is it working

Andrei Berman · 1:02 AM

appears it is.

Will Staton · 1:02 AM

howdy Drei

Andrei Berman · 1:02 AM

I'm not smart at all. Just well spoken. Very different things. But don't tell anyone

Will Staton · 1:02 AM

so Drei let's get it started

Andrei Berman · 1:03 AM

Anyhow Will, glad to be back here again. Just made myself a salad and a steak for the task. But sorry fans, I won't be instagramming it.

Will Staton · 1:03 AM

I'm sure it's tasty whether we see it or not

Will Staton · 1:04 AM

if you find time to type while eating, maybe you can start us off

Andrei Berman · 1:04 AM

OK so the tawk: a little background for folks...I had posted an article after the Sany Hook shooting about mental health and guns

Andrei Berman · 1:04 AM

wait did that go through

Andrei Berman · 1:05 AM

my message about the origins of this task

Will Staton · 1:05 AM

yes, that went through. you posted an article about mental health and guns. and it prompted me to say we should tawk about it

Andrei Berman · 1:05 AM

right. and full disclosure: I'm an expert in neither guns nor mental health

Will Staton · 1:06 AM

I don't think anyone is an expert in mental health, I think that's one of the problems, it's a field with a lot of questions

Andrei Berman · 1:06 AM

as is policy, the purported means of solving this problem

Will Staton · 1:06 AM

but what prompted me to want to tawk about this is that I think it's somewhat en vogue to talk about mental health as a facade for america's gun problem

Will Staton · 1:07 AM

@Blake it's on Drei's facebook page

Andrei Berman · 1:07 AM

And I'm not totally sure America has a gun problem. I think it has a mental health problem and that we don't need mentally ill people getting guns.

Will Staton · 1:07 AM

so there we go, I think America has a huge gun problem

Will Staton · 1:07 AM

so let's tawk it out

Will Staton · 1:07 AM

I'll start by saying that I don't think violence - gun or otherwise - is a black and white issue

Andrei Berman · 1:08 AM

Or, if we do have a gun problem, I'm not sure how we solve it because we're so deep in the game in terms of gun access that it's unclear how new policies fix an entrenched culture

Will Staton · 1:08 AM

so the issue of gun violence is multi-faceted

Andrei Berman · 1:08 AM

Let me say this re: the NRA first and foremost...

Will Staton · 1:08 AM

but I think when we talk about the world

Will Staton · 1:09 AM

sorry

Andrei Berman · 1:09 AM

I learned this week, amid the tragic aftermath of this shooting, that the NRA as an organization has changed quite a bit over the last 30 years. An organization once devoted to advancing responsible gun ownership has become a pawn of the gun industry

Will Staton · 1:09 AM

when we talk about these tragedies we tend to address all the issues except the issue of guns

Andrei Berman · 1:10 AM

and the industry = the problem. the owners are largely fine, but the industry has no concern with anything other than profits and thus doesnt want any state intervention in that process.

Will Staton · 1:10 AM

but we're not truly evaluating this, most gun owners are fine, but have you ever actually considered why we NEED guns?

Will Staton · 1:10 AM

this is deeply routed in our culture, but it's a problem, a deadly one

Andrei Berman · 1:11 AM

I think part of the reason the guns arent discussed in detial is because if you view the narrative as driven by coastal mainstream media, you have to assume that a lot of these people don't know much about guns

Will Staton · 1:11 AM

I don't view the narrative that way

Will Staton · 1:12 AM

I view the narrative as being driven by people who love their guns, who want their guns, and who largely use their guns safely and for personal recreation

Andrei Berman · 1:12 AM

n owners need to drive the reform

Will Staton · 1:12 AM

but I think they have dominated that narrative and it has contributed to an violent cycle of fear

Will Staton · 1:13 AM

but what can gun owners say to counter your views?

Will Staton · 1:13 AM

we need to reevaluate our love of guns, I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why anyone truly needs a gun

Will Staton · 1:14 AM

and I'm from MS, I like guns. I get it, they're fun, but the argument has become "it's my right to have a gun," and we never stop to consider why that is a right or if it has any utility

Will Staton · 1:14 AM

and so instead of questioning that, we use mental illness or poverty as an excuse to do nothing

Andrei Berman · 1:14 AM

"reevaluating the culture"**

Andrei Berman · 1:14 AM

not sure what it accomplishes*

Andrei Berman · 1:15 AM

here*

Will Staton · 1:15 AM

sure, we need policy right now, and we aren't going to collectively acknowledge that our culture of guns lacks utility

Will Staton · 1:15 AM

but we still need that conversation

Andrei Berman · 1:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachael Workman

“i think people feel they NEED to protect their amendment rights more than they NEED an actual gun. it's like the principle of the thing for so many people”

Andrei Berman · 1:16 AM

Rach, I think it's more than just the principle...Let's face it, guns are fun. As a hobby. And hunting and target shooting are super popular hobbies.

Will Staton · 1:16 AM

Yes, guns are fun, but they also kill tens of thousands of americans every year

Andrei Berman · 1:17 AM

right, but those guns are in the hands of people who shouldn't have them and the people who shouldnt have them are often mentally ill. SO how can we prevent people who are mentally iull from obtaining them

Will Staton · 1:17 AM

but drei, who should have a gun? again, we aren't thinking about the need for guns

Will Staton · 1:18 AM

I know they're fun, but why is it a right to own a gun? I'm not advocating making guns illegal, but it should not be a right to own a gun

Andrei Berman · 1:18 AM

ok well, i don't want just the state to have guns. Call me crazy, but that was the purpose of the 2nd amendment. BUT, i don't think people need high powered assault rifles to protect themselves or target shoot

Will Staton · 1:18 AM

But Drei, that's a fallible argument man

Andrei Berman · 1:18 AM

elaborate

Will Staton · 1:19 AM

assault weapons are great for mowing down innocent people, but what good are they against a hostile government with tanks and planes?

Will Staton · 1:19 AM

I find it somewhat silly and mildly offensive to people who actually live under tyranny to suggest that Americans need guns to protect themselves from an oppressive regime

Andrei Berman · 1:20 AM

Theyre not. Hence no need for them. But if you want to take a 22 or a 12 gage to the shootign range i dont see the problem, provided you go thru a REAL background check

Will Staton · 1:20 AM

but even if we think it's possible that the government may one day roll through in aggression, are the weapons we have gonna stop them?

Will Staton · 1:20 AM

sure, so again, I don't advocate making guns illegal, I like to shoot

Andrei Berman · 1:20 AM

right so we essentially agree

Will Staton · 1:20 AM

but until we collectively acknowledge that there is a gun problem then we will not enact policy to restrict them

Andrei Berman · 1:21 AM

you just want to get to a place where we grapple with WHY we're so damn obsessed with these things

Will Staton · 1:21 AM

but that requires a national conversation about the role and utility of guns in our society

Will Staton · 1:21 AM

and we refuse to acknowledge that we don't really NEED guns

Will Staton · 1:21 AM

there is no untamed frontier beyond which lurk bears, and outlaws, and apaches

Andrei Berman · 1:21 AM

and i think we won't be able to put in a policy change until the peopel who are responsible with their guns come out and acknowledge that it's too easy for people who aren't as responsible as they are to obtain them

Will Staton · 1:21 AM

we may like to hunt, but we have grocery stores

Will Staton · 1:22 AM

and all the data suggests that you're safer without a gun than with one

Will Staton · 1:23 AM

Janice, if no one had a gun you wouldn't need one either, that might be unrealistic now because there are so many guns out there, but studies show that owning a gun puts you in more danger, not less

Andrei Berman · 1:23 AM

i think a lot of this does go to the frontier spirit ingrained in so much of our culture...even as that spirit is no longer anything more than a facade of a different era

Will Staton · 1:23 AM

yes Drei

Will Staton · 1:24 AM

I agree, but that's why we need to reevaluate

Andrei Berman · 1:24 AM

but it's romanticized to the pt that cracking that cultural edifice might be harder than just bringing in substantive policy changes

Will Staton · 1:24 AM

it's a different world

Andrei Berman · 1:25 AM

i didnt punctuate that pt well...what i mean is it might be EASIER to simply impose policy changes than it is to grapple with the cultural stuff

Andrei Berman · 1:25 AM

sometimes you gotta just put the law in place and let the other stuff evolve in time

Will Staton · 1:25 AM

right, but that's the ultimate political excuse

Will Staton · 1:26 AM

sure, so let's start enacting policy

Will Staton · 1:26 AM

I agree, but it we can't have a grown up conversation based on facts and data then we won't solve any problems

Andrei Berman · 1:26 AM

ok but cant the discussion come AFTER the policy changes

Andrei Berman · 1:26 AM

because discussions are less important than saving lives

Will Staton · 1:27 AM

I don't know if we will get the policy change without the discussion

Andrei Berman · 1:27 AM

and if you find me somehting that's shown to save lives, fuck it, I'm in...provided it doesn't radically limit the rights of responsible gun owners

Will Staton · 1:27 AM

we should try

Will Staton · 1:27 AM

I think this is the debate we should be having, I think we should limit the rights of gun owners, because I don't think gun ownership should be a right

Will Staton · 1:27 AM

not illegal, but not a right

Will Staton · 1:28 AM

I agree with Blake and Erin. The US has more guns and more gun violence, we're slipping down the slippery slope

Andrei Berman · 1:28 AM

I think responsible people should be allowed to carry

Andrei Berman · 1:28 AM

but let me throw something out there real quick

Will Staton · 1:29 AM

turning America into an armed camp of paranoids all of whom think they need a gun for protection has gotten us to 10K gun murders a year and 20-30K gun deaths

Will Staton · 1:29 AM

you want more guns?

Andrei Berman · 1:29 AM

in a comment section on gawker of all places, a person threw out an inctedibly compelling policy proposal...they suggested that we treat guns like we treat cars...ie, require liability insurance

Andrei Berman · 1:30 AM

and let the insurance companies deal with the costs...ie if your gun kills someone, we're suing you for every dime you have

Andrei Berman · 1:30 AM

so insurance companies won't insure idiots because they'll be required to look into the history of all their policy holders

Will Staton · 1:30 AM

I like that as a policy idea

Will Staton · 1:31 AM

but we're still at different places, I want to have a broader conversation about the utility of firearms

Will Staton · 1:31 AM

I'm all about enacting policy, but I think it's bigger than that

Andrei Berman · 1:31 AM

because, for eg, my gf's uncle is the best dude i know and an awesome hunter. super responsible dude. this policy won't hurt him becausehis premimums will be super low

Andrei Berman · 1:32 AM

but some first time buyer with no experience shooting and a history of mental health issues will never be able to afford the policy

Will Staton · 1:32 AM

Again Drei, I like it

Will Staton · 1:32 AM

and there are other things we can do too

Will Staton · 1:32 AM

I've read lots of great suggestions in the past two weeks

Andrei Berman · 1:33 AM

then ban assault rifles and penalize to the max anyone in possession of one

Andrei Berman · 1:33 AM

but i defer to you here because i don't know the subtleties of gun models, etc

Will Staton · 1:33 AM

don't defer to me on that one, I'm not a gun expert

Andrei Berman · 1:34 AM

at the expense of sounding trite, i do think a lot of this goes back to campaign finance reform.

Will Staton · 1:34 AM

I'd like pose a question for everyone listening, and it's a serious question, I will consider all answers

Will Staton · 1:35 AM

but can anyone tell me why they need or think they need a gun

Will Staton · 1:35 AM

key word being need, not want

Andrei Berman · 1:36 AM

Will, gun need: sport, protection, the fact that we have so many alreayd out there that no other way exists to protect oneself (or that this is the perception anyway)

Will Staton · 1:36 AM

so Jordan I'm sympathetic to that, but again the studies show that you are safer without a gun

Andrei Berman · 1:37 AM

I mean, I used to shoot rifles at sleep away camp and I'll admit: it's really really fucking fun

Will Staton · 1:37 AM

yes, guns are already out there

Andrei Berman · 1:37 AM

now multiply that by 1000 for certain people, whose major passion is hunting or target shooting or skeet shooting and who've never harmed anyone

Will Staton · 1:37 AM

but that doesn't mean we should continue to let them proliferate and say, well, they're already there, so we need more for protection

Will Staton · 1:37 AM

when the data shows the opposite is true

Will Staton · 1:38 AM

no, jordan, they can't measure the psychological effects of feeling safe

Andrei Berman · 1:39 AM

Let me pose a serious question for a moment: name me a tangible way that last week's shooting could have been prevented short of an outright ban on guns

Will Staton · 1:39 AM

really drei?

Will Staton · 1:39 AM

The mom wouldn't have bought guns legally so she wouldn't have had any for her son to steal

Will Staton · 1:39 AM

is that a good enough reason?

Will Staton · 1:39 AM

but I'm not advocating an outright gun on bans

Will Staton · 1:40 AM

and I admit that some people will get guns and do harm even if we do ban them entirely

Will Staton · 1:40 AM

but not like this

Andrei Berman · 1:40 AM

OK so if that's the case then is there even a policy solution that exists short of banning guns?

Will Staton · 1:40 AM

we're talking 20-30 thousand dead americans every year

Andrei Berman · 1:40 AM

Because that simply isn't going to happen, nor should it

Will Staton · 1:40 AM

well, this is why I think we need a serious cultural reevaluation

Andrei Berman · 1:40 AM

and suggesting it should is going to ensure that you never win over the responsible gun owners

Will Staton · 1:41 AM

Drei, I know it's unrealistic, and I don't think we should puruse that

Will Staton · 1:41 AM

but why shouldn't it?

Will Staton · 1:41 AM

why is it your right to own a gun?

Andrei Berman · 1:41 AM

OK so what do w pursue

Andrei Berman · 1:41 AM

besides existential questions on tawkers about why we should own a gun

Will Staton · 1:41 AM

we pursue this conversation

Will Staton · 1:42 AM

it is the root of the issue

Andrei Berman · 1:42 AM

see, generally i think policy can be a very limited means of solving problems....the perils of technocracy if you will...but here, i think policy is needed in a robust way

Andrei Berman · 1:42 AM

so what policies...and in fact...what conversations...can we have that will prevent 6 yr olds from dying

Andrei Berman · 1:42 AM

that's my concern right now

Will Staton · 1:42 AM

@Ryan I can't argue against that, and the studies can't measure the psychological effects of feeling safe, but the data show that those psychological effects are just that...psychological

Will Staton · 1:43 AM

so we're okay letting people fool themselves in a deadly manner?

Andrei Berman · 1:43 AM

Will Staton · 1:43 AM

Drei, we can do what you said about insurance, we can implement mandatory psych evals at the individual's expense

Will Staton · 1:43 AM

we can ban assault weapons and high volume magazines

Will Staton · 1:44 AM

we can start a buyback program for assault weapons that are already out there

Andrei Berman · 1:44 AM

mnadatory psych evals = tricky because who's doing the evaluating and how do you de-politicize that procedure

Will Staton · 1:44 AM

licensed psychologists do those evals

Andrei Berman · 1:44 AM

but the insurance companies will surely be allowed to utilize the psychology testing

Will Staton · 1:45 AM

@Jane Doe, education is at the root of all our problems

Andrei Berman · 1:45 AM

first thing we need to do is end the gun show loop hole

Will Staton · 1:45 AM

@dani so far as it dictates educational outcomes, indeed

Andrei Berman · 1:45 AM

that shit is unreal to me

Will Staton · 1:46 AM

yes Jane, you put it better

Andrei Berman · 1:46 AM

I still think we need to be very careful about demonizing responsible gun owners

Will Staton · 1:46 AM

why Drei?

Andrei Berman · 1:46 AM

we need to get these folks ot buy in

Will Staton · 1:46 AM

this is the conversation I want to have

Will Staton · 1:47 AM

we're not demonizing those people, we're demonizing the culture and rightfully so

Will Staton · 1:47 AM

the culture is deadly and it's antiquated and it's built on fear

Andrei Berman · 1:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dani Lerro

“because a more pressing issue than psychopaths with guns is fifteen year olds with guns....which is basically the same thing, in terms of brain chemistry”

Will Staton · 1:48 AM

ryan, nothing is wrong with hunting, but we even hunting is a hobby or passion, not a need

Andrei Berman · 1:48 AM

There's my GF!

Will Staton · 1:48 AM

and again, I'm fine with having guns for hunting

Andrei Berman · 1:48 AM

what a doll, huh?

Will Staton · 1:48 AM

not assault weapons with 30 round clips

Will Staton · 1:49 AM

right Jane, we letting hunting or in the case of Sandy Hook, mental illness be an excuse for inaction

Andrei Berman · 1:49 AM

let me throw somehting out there: what do you say, will, to the argument that existign gun control measures have actually worsened the problem?

Will Staton · 1:49 AM

the reality is that none of the problems around gun violence in america are unique to america except guns!

Will Staton · 1:50 AM

I say Drei that if existing gun measure have contributed to the problem it is only because they haven't gone far enough trying to fix it

Will Staton · 1:50 AM

but ryan, we can separate those two things

Andrei Berman · 1:51 AM

sorry, what did ryan say? can't see it

Will Staton · 1:51 AM

@Blake I agree, and this is why I want to have a big, existential conversation

Will Staton · 1:52 AM

Dani, I'm not saying that

Will Staton · 1:52 AM

I'm sure most gun owners, the vast majority are responsible, if that weren't the case we'd have more problems than we do

Will Staton · 1:53 AM

but that's not the point, the point is that I still haven't heard what I consider a single acceptable argument for why anyone NEEDS a gun that can't be refuted by data

Will Staton · 1:53 AM

so for example: I need a gun for safety

Will Staton · 1:53 AM

that sounds good until we see that owning a gun makes us less safe

Will Staton · 1:54 AM

so it's not about the people who own guns, it's about a national collective failure to evaluate why we need guns vs. the harm they are doing

Will Staton · 1:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dani Lerro

“Will, I think we're painting gun owners with too broad a brush. I don't know the numbers on this, but I can't believe that most of them are single issue voters who belong to militia (militiae?)”

Will Staton · 1:54 AM

thanks, Blake, I'll do that, I'm still a neophyte tawker

Andrei Berman · 1:54 AM

Blake, having trouble figuring out how to spotlight, other than for certain people for whom it provides that option

Will Staton · 1:55 AM

so I'm responding to Dani's comment that I just spotlighted above

Andrei Berman · 1:56 AM

data can show anything

Andrei Berman · 1:56 AM

but what's your point? even if you're right

Andrei Berman · 1:56 AM

you've acknowledged that taking away guns or banning them isn't a political reality, nor a normatively effective policy goal...so what can we do NOW?

Will Staton · 1:56 AM

my point is that unless we have a big, national conversation about this we aren't ever going to address what is at the root of the issue

Will Staton · 1:56 AM

guns

Will Staton · 1:57 AM

I don't buy into this "shrug our shoulders" response. It's only too big of a problem if we think it is

Andrei Berman · 1:59 AM

shrugging our shoulders wont work...you're right

Andrei Berman · 1:59 AM

but what cans we do NOW? I really want to know what we can do in the next 90 days to ensure that fewer of these incidents occur...that to me is what matters

Will Staton · 2:00 AM

there was a great article in the economist about this, about our crocodile tears

Will Staton · 2:00 AM

ban assault weapons and start a buy back program

Will Staton · 2:00 AM

right now

Will Staton · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Dani Lerro

“But, what I think is more important, is I know hunters in Italy....where attacks like this are non existent...I don't know what the law is in Italy, but I'm imagining that hunting rifles are legal, while semi automatics are not. That would be my push.”

Will Staton · 2:00 AM

ban magazines with high capacity

Will Staton · 2:01 AM

require psych evals, renewal of licenses annually

Andrei Berman · 2:01 AM

but i still think we also have to find a way of making the manufacturer bear certain costs.

Will Staton · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Ryan Nicholas

“Buy back programs are important - or some other means to attempt to bring more guns in.”

Will Staton · 2:02 AM

yes Ryan

Will Staton · 2:02 AM

they did this in Australia in 1996 I believe

Will Staton · 2:02 AM

remarkably successful

Will Staton · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“Where is the line between, handgun, rifle, semi automatic, automatic, .bombs”

Will Staton · 2:03 AM

rifle and semi-auto

Will Staton · 2:03 AM

I think it should be

Andrei Berman · 2:03 AM

but people own so many guns. that won't work. they'll sell 5 and keep 2

Will Staton · 2:03 AM

but handguns are responsible for the vast majority of gun deaths

Will Staton · 2:04 AM

we're only considering the rampages here, they account for tiny % of overall gun deaths

Andrei Berman · 2:04 AM

right. hand guns are the real killers. these auto incidents remain fairly rare

Andrei Berman · 2:04 AM

doesn't excuse it, but it's not the culprit of most deaths.

Will Staton · 2:04 AM

yes, suicides and murders are vast majority

Andrei Berman · 2:04 AM

as with all issues, does the gun thing reflect something broader about the type of society we are economically? Not sure. Just posing the question.

Will Staton · 2:05 AM

I don't think so, I think it reflects our national refusal to acknowledge guns aren't sacred

Will Staton · 2:05 AM

other comparable economies don't have these issues

Will Staton · 2:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“the handgun deaths I would assume are largely of people who are involved in certain lifestyles. not that they should be dead, but a child in CT certainly deserves more thoughtful protection no?”

Will Staton · 2:06 AM

blake the vast majority of handgun deaths are suicides

Andrei Berman · 2:06 AM

I'm tempted to continue this task and prior to doing so, finding a responsible gun owner who is super knowledgeable about this stuff and then also finding public policy expert who is versed in the methods of how to accomplish key policy goals

Will Staton · 2:06 AM

about 17-19K suicides vs 9-11 K murders

Andrei Berman · 2:07 AM

but will, the 2nd amendment won't be overturned in our life times. so we need to find ways of making it harder for nuts ot access guns while still realizinfg that 300 million are on the streets

Will Staton · 2:08 AM

but again, I think at the end of the day we significantly cut down on gun deaths by limiting guns, the other issues are important

Will Staton · 2:08 AM

but even suicides by gun can be limited buy limiting guns, that won't end suicide, but studies have shown that if you make it more difficult for someone to take their own life, they may not

Will Staton · 2:08 AM

for example building fences around bridges

Will Staton · 2:08 AM

decrease jumpers

Andrei Berman · 2:09 AM

fair. can we continue this tawk and try and find a gun expert and a public policy expert for when we do?

Will Staton · 2:09 AM

and I think that our society has such an ingrained gun culture that we fail to recognize guns don't have much utility in today's world

Will Staton · 2:10 AM

and I think until we accept that we will continue to make excuses and highlight every issue other than guns

Will Staton · 2:10 AM

but yes, let's continue this tawk

Will Staton · 2:11 AM

I guess that means we're winding down?

Andrei Berman · 2:12 AM

sounds good. thanks everybody. this was really interesting and I learned a lot. Glad Will suggested we utilize the tawkers brand for such a worthwhile talk...i mean tawk.

Will Staton · 2:12 AM

Thanks to everyone for tawking, lot of good points, more I wish we could have addressed

Will Staton · 2:15 AM

someone like Myra's comment!

Will Staton · 2:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Myra Cohen

“If America keeps going in the direction of wanting guns in every aspect of our lives we will become an armed state. Forget about the 2nd amendment. It was written over 200 hundred ago”

Will Staton · 2:15 AM

Thank you Myra

Will Staton · 2:15 AM

this is a broader point, but relates to why we need to reevaluate

Will Staton · 2:16 AM

we can't legislate or regulate a 21st century society by thinking an 18th century document is infallible

Will Staton · 2:16 AM

the 2nd amendment has lost utility, just like, you know the 3/5ths clause

Will Staton · 2:17 AM

perhaps our female listeners are happy about the fact that we amended the constitution to allow them to vote

Will Staton · 2:17 AM

we are willing to reevaluate and make changes, it's time for us to have that conversation about guns

Will Staton · 2:27 AM

alright, thanks again everyone, I think we've exhausted it today, hope to continue this later

Forum · 158

Forum· 158 comments

1,109 visitors

Rachael WorkmanDec 21, 2012, 5:07 PM

Looking forward to this, guys.

ed goldsmithDec 22, 2012, 11:38 PM

Sounds like this will be very interesting!

Blake IanDec 23, 2012, 11:49 PM

I know Andrei Berman to be a pretty intelligent dude... Definitely interested in hearing his perspective.

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 12:58 AM

if you think Drei is smart, wait till you hear will... ;)

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 12:59 AM

Just how many votes did Will get?

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:01 AM

You got it!

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:01 AM

That's pretty good

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:01 AM

Looks like Drei is in the audience

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:02 AM

it sure is

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:02 AM

You just announced it publicly, but aside from that, I'll keep it to myself.

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:03 AM

drei we're all faking it in some respects

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:06 AM

Hey if either of you have the link to the article handy... could you post it here. Thanks

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:07 AM

Andrei-- can you post a link to your article?

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:07 AM

Haha

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:07 AM

Blake

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:09 AM

I feel that Administrators at schools should have a permit to carry a hand gun...the ''first responders are the teachers, not the

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:09 AM

@Drei "so deep in the game of gun access" I agree... I saw a video today from a

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:09 AM

pro gun guy

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:09 AM

police offficers

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:10 AM

He spoke about defending himself from all the other guns... and I have to say it made me think for a second... there are a lot of guns out there

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:10 AM

not the police!!

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:11 AM

pro gun as well

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:14 AM★ Spotlighted

i think people feel they NEED to protect their amendment rights more than they NEED an actual gun. it's like the principle of the thing for so many people

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:15 AM

Its a great point--

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:15 AM

we live in a very sick society............when there is someone killing innocent children we need to protect them.

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:15 AM

It is evidently very fun to shoot deer with assault rifles

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:15 AM

but totally unnecessary

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:17 AM

ok so maybe the argument should be what's the NEED for automatic, multiple-barrel assault weapons

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:17 AM

I believe in in hand guns, not assault rifles..and I am a true believer in having hand guns in our schools

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:18 AM

most of what I have read and seen lately from people wanting to keep their rights is to protect themselves from other guns that are already out there. This is not my view, but it does relate to Drei's point that we pretty deep into this problem.

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:19 AM

Deer cannot fight back.....that is why assault rifles are used. If deer would be able to defend themselves, there would be no

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:20 AM

assault rifles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:21 AM

so one solution guess would be that you could only rent a gun temporarily at a range?

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:21 AM

Nobody should shoot unless absolutely necessary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:22 AM

yes if it's a for fun thing... then renting at a designated place seems logical... You can't go driving a race care on the highway

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:22 AM

You need protection in your homes as well. Guns are very NECESSARY

Jason CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:22 AM

Shouldn't every school in America have an armed police officer?

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:23 AM

Good question from Jason

Jason CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:23 AM

Solely based i

Erin CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:23 AM

people like and enjoy a lot of things...many of them are no legal...just bc people like to shoot does not mean guns should be legal for recreational purposes

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:23 AM

great question Jason, though I tend to think that is going in the wrong direction from the issue

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:24 AM

an armed police office in a school could not prevent a clever school shooter, unfortunately.

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:24 AM

I Agree...EVERY school should have an armed officer. If an aide has to be fired, so do so....at least our children will be

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:24 AM

protected

Jason CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:25 AM

The issue won't be solved that's reality............but how do we justify protecting everything u can but not our kids

Janice SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:25 AM

It's for safety.............not recreational

Jason CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:25 AM

Don't think it would have been a massacre

Erin CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:26 AM

but then would you put an armed police officer in every daycare, library, playground, supermarket...where does it end?

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:27 AM

guys, most school shooters go into the act with the intention of killing themselves. so an armed officer poses no threat to them, the thought of getting killed poses no threat to them. they could easily skirt one armed officer as part of their plan.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:28 AM

@Erin - Agreed. Wrong direction. It's a major band-aid not a solution

Erin CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:29 AM

who determines who is "responsible"?

Erin CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:31 AM

yes but if the guns are out there, people can get access to it...for example, the sandy hook shooter took his mother's gun

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:32 AM

@Drei, I was going to say, like ANY issue in this country, the solution is to make it profitable to solve. make it more profitable If you want less gun violence, making it expensive for insurance companies to have guns and gun violence.

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:33 AM

The insurance companies will dig this

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:33 AM

Similar to Warren buffet's simple solution for the cliff, hold Congress responsible, if the debt reaches a certain point, restricted compensation for congress during that time.

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:33 AM

You could set the NRA lobby against the Insurance lobby

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:33 AM

that would be a battle

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:33 AM

People who own guns should have to get their licenses renewed periodically, with renewed background checks for changed circumstances.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:35 AM

@Jane - that is so obviously a first step it's insane that's not the case!

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:35 AM

will - i can't think of an answer.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:36 AM

Though, a thought I had today is, how do you check the mental health and background of everyone that person knows and has access to their house and their guns.

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:36 AM

Need a gun for protection...

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:36 AM

Will, no one needs a gun, people think they do, to be safe, but i believe the data prove that guns make them and their loved ones less safe

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:36 AM

Wouldn't personally inspire me to buy one

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:36 AM

but protection...

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:36 AM

I know women who live alone who think they need a gun

Erin CohenDec 24, 2012, 1:37 AM

i actually htink havign a gun makes us less safe in many ways, not more

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:37 AM

@Will - Again, I do NOT think anyone needs a gun, but what I have read from those who do is that they need to protect themselves from A) the guns already out there B) tyranny

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:37 AM

I want to believe the studies

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:37 AM

but do they really effect a persons fear?

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:38 AM

and my aunt and uncle need a gun so they can afford to eat meat

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:38 AM

like a woman who lives alone?

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:38 AM

Dani, I think you're right that some women think they need a gun, but do the data support their belief that funds actually make them safer?

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:38 AM

no i mean

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:38 AM

it would be great if the studies could convince people

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:38 AM

@Jane, no, I don't personally think they're safer, but I do understand the fear

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:39 AM

Dani, I do too, but we're encouraging the wrong response to that fear if we encourage people to have guns to self-protect.

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:40 AM

We need to work harder at eradicating the source of the fear, and look at why there are dangerous people in society and why they become dangerous.

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:41 AM

I mean, someone has to take out the deer, since we've killed off all of their natural predators

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 1:42 AM

@will - I think a lot of Americans use guns most often for hunting or for protection of their person/property. Despite the studies that suggest gun owners are MORE likely to be shot, Americans value a perceived sense of safety.

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:44 AM

i love that idea. cash for clunkers.

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:44 AM

And we can have more great teachers like Dani, to help children have hope for their own futures

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:45 AM

Speaking of Data guys... here is some http://www.heedinggodscall.org/sites/heedinggodscall.org/files/10_grey_GVP__Some_Indicative_Data__2010_5m13.pdf

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:45 AM

I would say income inequality is at the root of all our problems

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:46 AM

Will, education is at the root of the solutions to all our problems

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:46 AM

Can I get some SPOTLIGHT on that data post or what Drei / Will?

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 1:46 AM

Psych evals, which are on the softer side of science no matter how thorough and scientific the evaluator, along with the influence of insurance companies sounds like a recipe for corruption and fraud to me

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:46 AM

Dani, I absolutely agree with you, and education should be a tool to redress income inequality

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:46 AM★ Spotlighted

because a more pressing issue than psychopaths with guns is fifteen year olds with guns....which is basically the same thing, in terms of brain chemistry

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:47 AM

We don't need to demonize them to tell them, sorry there are just too many people ruining it for you right now. Go find another hobby

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 1:47 AM

What is wrong with the culture of hunting?

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:48 AM

Ryan, it may be that nothing's wrong with the culture of hunting, but that doesn't mean we have to be a culture which accepts gun violence.

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:48 AM

@andrei, I wasn't being facetious

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 1:48 AM

15 year old brain = larval

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:49 AM

in terms of decision making skills, etc

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 1:49 AM

True, but thats what Andei is suggesting - Let's not demonize the responsible gun owners. The hunter for instance has done nothing wrong, and I would argue hasn't contributed to a culture of gun violence in any significant way

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 1:50 AM

I'm not suggesting reform shouldn't be pursued because there are responsible gun owners. Important distinction

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:50 AM

My instinct says that if you look at the data, other countries with no rights to guns have almost no gun violence, but 2 things to consider are 1. Americans are a different breed and 2. how do we change directions, as such a big ship?

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 1:51 AM

Ryan, I agree. And responsible gun owners need to lead the effort for more gun control.

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 1:51 AM

drei go into the audience and listen to ryan so you see his remarks.

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

Will, I think we're painting gun owners with too broad a brush. I don't know the numbers on this, but I can't believe that most of them are single issue voters who belong to militia (militiae?)

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:52 AM

I know many responsible gun owners who are doing more to keep our planet sustainable than most of us. not much more local or green than killing your own food in a responsible manner.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:54 AM

@Will and Drei - As hosts, it will be helpful to your audience and co-host to Spotlight when addressing a comment instead of the at symbol. Also rewarding to the audience participant who has gotten your attention.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:54 AM

@ Will - Most people on earth are at this point! : )

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:55 AM

Spotlight is only available when the forum has pushed it up to OVERHEARD status

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:55 AM

with that little blue OJ

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:55 AM

haha OH

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:56 AM

ok, sorry for the digression into tech support... back to the tawk at hand

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:56 AM

That really is the problem isn't Drei? Any side of any argument can be proven... especially by an American!

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 1:57 AM

@Andrei - The unintended consequences of prohibition are relevant to this discussion. Do we acknowledge that criminal organizations like the cartel will increase profits by selling guns to the U.S. just as they have illegal drugs?

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:57 AM

ESPECIALLY by an AMERICAN LAWYER!

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 1:58 AM★ Spotlighted

But, what I think is more important, is I know hunters in Italy....where attacks like this are non existent...I don't know what the law is in Italy, but I'm imagining that hunting rifles are legal, while semi automatics are not. That would be my push.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 1:59 AM

@Dani - I agree, as it seems so does Rachael and many others outside of this Tawk, a STEP ONE would be, the weapons that allow for mass murder in minutes need to be restricted

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Where is the line between, handgun, rifle, semi automatic, automatic, .bombs

Jordan SudyDec 24, 2012, 2:00 AM

Amen

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:00 AM

To me the line exists between rifle and semi automatic.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:01 AM

though right now it's set between semi auto and automatic

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:01 AM

I think we need to move that needle over one

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

Buy back programs are important - or some other means to attempt to bring more guns in.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:03 AM

How difficult is it to move the line? People aren't currently complaining about no automatics

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:03 AM

@ I agree... right now it's a step too far to the right between semi and auto

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:04 AM

though aren't the mass murders of innocent people more from the rampages? I could be wrong

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 2:04 AM

@Andrei - If they sell 5 and keep 2, the program is working pretty well

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:05 AM★ Spotlighted

the handgun deaths I would assume are largely of people who are involved in certain lifestyles. not that they should be dead, but a child in CT certainly deserves more thoughtful protection no?

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:07 AM

well ok, that's sad, but I still stand by the fact that a child in CT is of more consideration in determining gun laws, than someone taking their own life

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:07 AM

the suicides is a CLEAR case of mental illness issue to be addressed. There is little denying that right?

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:08 AM

RIP Tony Scott :(

Dina FeinDec 24, 2012, 2:09 AM

There's no conflict between having a second amendment right to bear arms, even as interpreted by the S.C., and reasonably regulating that right

Ryan NicholasDec 24, 2012, 2:10 AM

I'm uncomfortable with the presumptive association of lifestyle choices and gun deaths. The children deserve thoughtful consideration but so do the others, especially since most gun deaths are not happening in schools.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:10 AM

*sorry more tech support hints - Drei, remember if you see a comment you like but it's not yet overheard, give ti a thumbs up to help get it there, giving you the ability to spotlight it. Like that very well spoken Jane Doe comment for instance.

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 2:11 AM

yeah we can find an expert to serve as a moderator

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 2:12 AM

not sure what qualifies one, but we'll try to find him/her

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:13 AM

Thank you guys... great use of the platform... and remember you can come back and pick up the tawk anytime.

Myra CohenDec 24, 2012, 2:15 AM★ Spotlighted

If America keeps going in the direction of wanting guns in every aspect of our lives we will become an armed state. Forget about the 2nd amendment. It was written over 200 hundred ago

Rachael WorkmanDec 24, 2012, 2:15 AM

amen, Myra.

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 2:19 AM

@Blake, a lot (most?) of people are killed by handguns who are just innocent bystanders...this is true EVERYWHERE, not just suburban CT....like the three little kids killed in the Bronx this summer

Dani LerroDec 24, 2012, 2:20 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/nyregion/in-the-safest-big-city-a-summer-of-guns-and-death.html?_r=0

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:21 AM

Hmm well I'm glad I wrote "assume"... Left me an out for being incorrect. Very interesting Dani, I was not aware of that at all.

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:21 AM

But I suppose it's like plane crashes, infinitely fewer deaths, but much bigger news than a car crash

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 2:25 AM

But with any kind of change, I think you need to take it a step at a time, and though I have ZERO need for any gun existing on this planet, I think our best chance at change at the moment is moving the line from automatic to semi automatic for now

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:34 AM

Blak, UB is here

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:35 AM

Sorry Im late to the TAWK. Before you can have a conversation in this country about guns, you have to accpet the fact that the citizens j=have a cinsitutional right to have a gun.

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:36 AM

once you start to tell people you want them to ive up their guns, the conversation is over.

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:37 AM

Tes I agree with RW. They don't want their rights taken away and they shouldn't.

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:37 AM

But that was for muskets not ak47's

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:37 AM

I think in the short run, schools should have someone on premises who knowshow to use a gun

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:38 AM

While the country is working to limit the types of guns people can have.

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:39 AM

Legislatively, we can immediately bring back the ban on assault weapons, make it mandatory at gun shows to have a background check and adress guns and mental illness.

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:39 AM

the nti gun and pro gun people need to find common ground in the beginning.

Bruce HauptmanDec 24, 2012, 2:45 AM

I am all for repealing the second ammendment but that would take years and hundreds of tragedys before/if it gets done

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 3:06 AM

@BruceHauptman, I agree overall it's about taking steps. The term "I have the constitutional right" means "ok let's take a look and see if that right still makes sense" I just saw Lincoln and owning a human was at one point the "Right" of every American!

Blake IanDec 24, 2012, 3:27 AM

Also, as you said it was written with a musket in mind, so when did semi automatics get in there? They did not exist nor were they even imagined when the second amendment was written. If anyone who stops by this tawk can help me with that question.

Blake IanFeb 11, 2013, 2:21 PM

http://on.cc.com/Tk0Er3

Blake IanMar 27, 2013, 3:00 PM

Wow... http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/03/hah-gun-rights-supporter-sells-autographed-jim-carrey-photo-on-ebay-to-raise-cash-for-new-gun/

hertzi ShwartzJan 3, 2014, 12:44 AM

I don't know guys but for me it seems that people under the influence of psychiatric drugs do awesul things, maybe we should examine and discuss the dangers of the prescribed drugs on people before we talk about what people do with guns.

hertzi ShwartzJan 3, 2014, 12:45 AM

sorry for misspell, meant awful not awesul

Mary NicholsonMay 20, 2014, 11:35 PM

Are we going to blame a fork for people being fat as well & ban it?

leticcia valenttinaJul 21, 2014, 8:45 PM

Hey