KK

Motherhood Unshackled

May 22, 2014

AN
Stage· 179 messages
May 22, 2014

"Every year in the United States babies are born to women who are literally in chains – shackled to their delivery beds even in the act of labor." -- ACLUnMotherhood and social justice writer Avital Norman Natham is back with me to discuss her home state of Mass becoming just the 20th state to ban this archaic practice and tell the story of a woman she spoke to who endured such a dehumanizing and painful delivery in our country -- in this century.

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:00 PM

Hi, everyone! Thanks for coming to “Motherhood Unshackled” (new ProTip: there’s a mobile app: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tawkers/id791417999?mt=8 )
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:00 PM

Hooray! I finally picked a time Lynne could make it. :)
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:00 PM

Real quick, if you’re new to Tawkers, Avital and I will be chatting on the left. And if you’re signed in (it only takes two minutes to set up a profile!), you can add comments/questions on the right. Interrupt any time with questions!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:01 PM

Also, definitely use the “arrow” icons to share comments on social media & ask people you know who will dig the discussion to join in.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:01 PM

I’m so excited to have Avital back! She’s a good friend and the preeminent writer on the intersection of motherhood and social justice.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:02 PM

Today we’re chatting about her recent piece for Cosmo -- http://www.cosmopolitan.com/advice/health/anti-shackling-laws-pregnant-prisoners — on the terrifyingly routine practice of shackling prisoners WHILE they give birth.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:02 PM

Thanks so much for taking the time to chat, Avital!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:02 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“Yay! I'm here, I'm here!”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:02 PM

Thanks for having me back, Katie. Happy to be here, especially to talk about an important issue like this.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:02 PM

To get us started, tell us how you heard about this practice and how common it is.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:03 PM

There is a local group that does amazing work with incarcerated women called the Prison Birth Project. http://theprisonbirthproject.org
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:04 PM

(Avital is is Massachusetts)
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:04 PM

I had gone to their Solidarity Supper (a fundraising event) and the keynote speaker was a woman who had been incarcerated at 4 months pregnant and she shared her story of being pregnant while incarcerated, and what it was like giving brith as well as
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:04 PM

her postpartum experience.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:04 PM

It was horrifying, frankly.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:05 PM

I can't even imagine....
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:05 PM

And it made me start looking into what other states policies are like. Currently, since the passage of MA's anti-shackling law, there are only 21 states that have laws on the books preventing shackling during birth for incarcerated women
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:05 PM

So that means the majority of states are unregulated, allowing prisons and jails to make their own policies.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:06 PM

I just can't picture seeing a human being about to go through labor and thinking "Gosh, we should probably chain that person down."
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:07 PM

Are prisons shackling super violent offenders?
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:07 PM

Not usually. On the whole, incarcerated women are there for nonviolent offenses.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:07 PM

Good question, Lynne! Do prisoners have ANY control over how they give birth and where?
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:08 PM

Lynne, while I don't know for certain, I can't imagine that's allowed at ALL.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:08 PM

Many prisons don't even allow birth support (i.e. doulas) or family members in the delivery room.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:09 PM

TBH, I think the homebirth fight is far down on teh list, only because there are so many things to be fighting for when it comes to pregnant women in prison.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:09 PM

Things like nutrition, physical activity, access to providers, etc...
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:09 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“Do you know anything about if incarcerated women have chosen to do an at home birth, how that's treated?”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:09 PM

WOW. I can't imagine how terrifying that would be for anyone, but especially first time mothers.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:09 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“I think it depends on the state, right? Shelby Knox was doing some work witht his a few years ago”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:09 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“Obviously she won't go home, but do they call a dula (spelling errors) or disrespect her wishes and go the hospital?”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:09 PM

The woman who is quoted in my Cosmo story shared some info about being pregnant in prison, and it sounded so horrible. Pretty much all control is stripped from you.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:10 PM

Their "pregnancy snack" was a dry cheese sandwich with fake, processed cheese and a carton of milk, which the pregnant women got at night.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:10 PM

You answered my canned question in detail in your Cosmo piece -- most pregnant people are jailed for non-violent offenses, but still face shackling. It's unconscionable.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:11 PM

Her story is so heart breaking.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:11 PM

Megan - that's one of the problems. The prison systems are SO opaque and many of these practices aren't documented.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:11 PM

There's already the issue of states that *have* anti-shackling laws not following the letter of the law and still shackling women.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:12 PM

It's also really hard to even get accurate data as to how many pregnant women are incarcerated/year.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:12 PM

★ Spotlighted from Megan Smith

“In terms of the "unregulated" states, do we have any idea if that means that they are typically shackling prisoners or not? I'm guessing there is probably no data on this...”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:13 PM

Are pregnant prisoners aware that this will likely happen to them ahead of time?
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:13 PM

Or are they just surprised on the day of delivery?
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:13 PM

I'm not certain, but considering how many people I encountered while working on this story that had no idea, I'm sure many are unaware.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:14 PM

And in those states where there are no set laws on the books, and prisons set their own policies, it can be anyone's guess as to what will happen based on any number of factors.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:14 PM

That's horrifying.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:14 PM

But what this all boils down to is control, and that speaks to the larger issue surround birth culture in this country as well as the way we treat/talk about women.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:14 PM

Absolutely.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:14 PM

"We'll tell you when, how, if..." on everything.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:15 PM

That's what makes this such an important reproductive justice issue. If it happens to ONE person, it's one too many.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:15 PM

Exactly.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:15 PM

And what is amazing is that there are many organizations that usually have a lot of clout speaking out against shackling
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:16 PM

yes! I love that Lynne is all ready all the time to help fix some shit. ;)
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:16 PM

The DOJ just released a statement after a task force spent years looking at this issue.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:16 PM

I can't believe we needed a task force to determine that this was a bad idea. o.O
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:16 PM

The recommendations say that shackling is dangerous and unneccesary
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:16 PM

(I'm glad we had one, but seriously.)
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:17 PM

this continues to be the party line of medical orgs like ACOG and AMA as well
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:17 PM

Great Q, Lynne. Well, first I would say to look at your state and see where it falls
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:17 PM

Heh. If only legislators listened to medical groups....
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:17 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“So...what kinds of things can we do to help?”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:17 PM

Is it one of the 21 states that has a law on the book? If yes, are those laws being followed? What sort of documentation system is set up to follow through, etc...
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:18 PM

If not, what orgs are fighting to get it on the books? Big ones like ACLU & NARAL were instrumental here in MA
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:19 PM

Megan - many of these anti-shackling laws are all emcompassing, focusing on bettering conditions for pregnant women in prison. MA's law also looks to help w/prenatal concerns from provider appts, nutrition and counseling.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:19 PM

I love seeing groups tackle a host of issues together -- when we have the attention of law makers, we have to push for EVERYTHING we can get.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:20 PM

No more of this "Well, we can only ask for X!"
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:20 PM

I'm obviously better informed with MA's law (that was my focus of the Cosmo piece, plus it's where I live). But other states have similar aspects to their laws - like CA
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:20 PM

But again, these laws only help when they're being implemented properly
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:20 PM

★ Spotlighted from Megan Smith

“I'm also wondering about prenatal care. Are there any laws about what needs to be provided to incarcerated women before birth?”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:20 PM

The quote from your governor is something I want to touch on. What did he say as he was signing the bill?
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:21 PM

“It blows my mind that I have to sign a law for that,” the governor said after the signing the bill into law.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:21 PM

YES!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:21 PM

A lot of our work as advocates and activists is just letting allies know about the problem. I would bet a lot of state and local officials don't know this is happening.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:22 PM

Gov Patrick is great. He really pushed for this bill. In fact, the entire state legislature was behind it. Someone I spoke with said it was one of the fastest moving bills once it got to the House and Senate. No real squabbling over the nitty gritty
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:22 PM

NICE
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:22 PM

He even enacted a 90 day emergency ban while the bill was being heard
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:22 PM

That's great!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:23 PM

"Hold up. WHAT is happening? Hit the emergency pause button!"
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:23 PM

unfortunately, advocates heard of some cases of shackling during those 90 days though. so it still goes back to implementation and having some method of checking in
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:23 PM

Yeah, passing a bill isn't the end of the work. You're lucky in MA that you have great watchdog groups keeping track.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:24 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Oh apparently Rhode Island has a good law in effect from 2011. Let me see if I can find the acutal bill”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:24 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“*actual”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:24 PM

And sometimes, jails get "in trouble." Cook County jail was sued for shackling after IL's law was in place and a group of 80 women won a 4/1 million dollar settlement
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:25 PM

$4.1million
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:25 PM

Lynne - that is hard. I think people need to learn ot separate the crime from these practices.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:25 PM

Ugh. Don't get me started on Cook County/Illinois and prisons. (Good news, y'all, they're supposedly reopening the Thompson facility as a federal max security prison....)
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:25 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“How do you handle people with differing opinions. i.e. "That woman got arrested for x-y-z. She deserves it..." Also, what happens to the baby after it's born? Does it go into state custody?”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:26 PM

What happens to the baby depends on the state, the prison, the incarcerated woman, many factors.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:26 PM

Also, for those people who could -- infuriatingly -- not give a flying fuck about the woman, shackling is also HORRIBLE for the baby.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:26 PM

Prison Baby by Deborah Jiang-Stein is a great memoir from a woman who was born/raised in prison
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:27 PM

Yes! It always amazes me that people who are "pro-life" conveniently forget about the baby in these circumstances, when it's actually, you know, coming out.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:27 PM

("Prison Baby" -- http://www.amazon.com/Prison-Baby-Deborah-Jiang-Stein/dp/0807098108 )
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:27 PM

Tell us some of what shackling during transport to the hospital and during delivery can do to the baby.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:27 PM

Again, that's policy that is dependent on each facility. The woman I spoke with said the prison would contact her fiance, but hey didn't call him until she had already given birth.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:28 PM

Thankfully she had called him the night before and let him know that she felt like she was in labor. He drove up and stayed overnight at the hospital so he was there to see his son born.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:28 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“Do they try to contact the family, next of kin, when the woman goes into labor?”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:29 PM

Yes, there are some good resources out there.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:29 PM

I'd also recommend articles written by Rachel Roth, who really knows her stuff when it comes to prison.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:30 PM

Also Nationside has a "Birthing Behind Bars" section that updates frequently when news about this stuff occurs: http://nationinside.org/campaign/birthing-behind-bars/posts/
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:30 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“At least they contacted him at all... :/ Ugh...”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:30 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“I'm sure some of you have read this but it's good reading for those of us who are new to the game- http://alicelaw.org/uploads/asset/asset_file/1229/Preventing_Schackling_of_Pregnant_Prisoners_and_Detainees.pdf”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:30 PM

You described some pretty scary affects that shackling can have on the fetus/baby before/during delivery. What are some useful scary facts for those in red states with "prolife" legislators?
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:31 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“Thanks Jessica! (I'm new to the game.)”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:32 PM

Yes! You can read about many of the potential consequences of shackling during pregnancy and birth in the DOJ's report: http://cjinvolvedwomen.org/sites/all/documents/Best-Practices-Use-of-Restraints-Pregnant.pdf but to give you an idea
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:33 PM

there's risk of injury from falling b/c of ankle shackles, especially falling forward on the belly due to poor balance
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:33 PM

I think that's a good reminder that cis men are making these laws.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:34 PM

They're never had to deal with or imagine dealing with the center of gravity shift that happens during pregnancy.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:34 PM

Also, abdominal restraints (which are still used in places!) can place stress on the fetus and cause damage
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:34 PM

Lynne - I'm aware of the horrifying practice but haven't reported on it. But it all goes hand in hand - doesn't it? This notion of stripping control and agency over women's bodies.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:35 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“Avital, do you deal at all with forced sterilizations in prisons, or do you focus primarily on pregnancies in prison?”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:35 PM

Other concerns are restraints cutting off circulation which can not only harm the woman but possibly cut off blood flow/oxygen to the fetus
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:36 PM

The story the woman in your piece described actually made me nauseous -- trying to ride in the back of a police car while handcuffed and pregnant!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:36 PM

I can't keep myself from sliding around the back seat of some cabs, and there you have things to hold onto and your hands are free!
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:37 PM

Right, she was telling me she basically had two options with cuffed hands - holding on to someplace in the car to steady herself, or hold on to her belly to help stabilize that. I can't even imagine.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:38 PM

This was WHILE she was in labor, y'all.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:38 PM

Like, about to give birth.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:38 PM

Hearing about her postpartum shower also tugged at me. She was handcuffed and shackled (eventually they removed her handcuffs so she could wash her hair), but she had to shower with a nurse watching her and a CO in the door to the bathroom watching
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:38 PM

I hate that we need the most awful cases and narratives to change public policy, but we typically do. Her story should freak everyone out.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:39 PM

This was after the guards didn't believe she was in labor. The woman has been through the birthing process and they didn't believe her.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:39 PM

Cause, yanno, whiny woman.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:40 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Oh this is horrifying.”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:40 PM

Yes. They didn't believe how far into labor she was because she wasn't "acting hysterical" like they assumed a person in labor would be.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:40 PM

Even after they told her they would take her to he hospital, she had to sit for another 20 minutes waiting, ignoring the urge to push.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:40 PM

I'm sure those opinions come from years of experience and training. -__-
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:40 PM

When they finally got to the hospital, she delivered as she moved from teh ER bed to the delivery room bed.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:41 PM

And then they transported her in a police car instead of an ambulance. I just can't....
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:42 PM

Yeah. She said it right when she told me that they want you to labor on their terms and on their time. Clearly some prison officials need to go back to basic health 101
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:42 PM

Good question, Megan!
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:42 PM

Megan, yes - some bills have that language, but again, it's enforcing it and making sure it happens.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:43 PM

Prison culture - including those who work there - is its own insulated thing
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:44 PM

Argh. Prison culture. I hate that that's a thing.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:44 PM

And it's totally a thing.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:44 PM

★ Spotlighted from Megan Smith

“That points to the implementation component too. Part of the solution must have to be educating prison staff about what labor looks like, unique stressors and factors to think about with incarcerated pregnant women, etc. Is that being talked about?”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:44 PM

We strip away all humanity from people and then wonder why they can't just walk back on into society.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:45 PM

It really is. I've always been aware of it, but never fully understood it beyond what the media portrays (and we all know how accurate that can be) unti I started looking into shackling.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:45 PM

I mean, these prisoners already are, or are becoming, parents. They're raising the next generation. And we treat them worse than we treat animals.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:45 PM

If you chain a dog during breeding or birth, the ASPCA is after your ass (as they should be). But so few people think about the way we treat human beings.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:46 PM

Yeah. Like I said earlier, this is really indicative of the way we treat pregnancy and birth in general here.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:47 PM

Exactly, Michael.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:47 PM

YES Megan. And there is SO much resistance to that on many levels.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:48 PM

Lynne - there have been some successful suits from women who were shackled in states where there *are* laws on the books. That's another reason why getting these laws passed are so important. It sets a way to get recourse if needed.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:48 PM

Phew. Everyone doing ok? This is a pretty heavy subject.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:48 PM

★ Spotlighted from Megan Smith

“Regulation and enforcement all comes back to the prison system set up, doesn't it? I guess in order to fully address all of these issues (and others) we have to address the prison industrial complex as a whole.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:48 PM

★ Spotlighted from Michael Nam

“The prison continues outside of prison as well, with employment discrimination, housing discrimination, etc. etc.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:49 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“So...can the inmates sue for this? Like ,not believing when they go into labor? Is there any back lash the prisons can face?”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:49 PM

It *is* a heavy topic. Hard not to get invested in it and angry over it!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:49 PM

I'm pretty excited at the number of states represented in our chat right now.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:49 PM

You are all over the country -- this is really powerful!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:49 PM

Policing/prison laws are implemented and enforced locally -- you have a fair amount of power in affecting those laws.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:50 PM

The ACLU/NARAL and Prison Birth (project? help, Avital!) are all super responsive.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:50 PM

Wow. That's awesome Katie. And I really do hope folks take the time to check and see where there states are with this.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:50 PM

So if your state doesn't have regulations or isn't enforcing them, there are people you can get in touch with.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:51 PM

Jeni - yes, the ACLU and NARAL are great because they're national orgs that have state level folks working on bills like these
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:51 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Totally infuriating.”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:51 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“I'm okay. I just want to go punch people and stuff. How I usually feel :)”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:51 PM

While the Prison Birth Project is local to MA, other states have local orgs also working at helping women in prison
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:52 PM

Avital links to most of them in her Cosmo piece --http://t.co/CTRRKogNEk -- pass it around! The narrative of the woman she interviewed as well as the story of MA passing new legislation is really powerful.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:52 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jeni Burns

“What organizations can we get in touch with to help?”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:52 PM

The more people see it (esp in a publication where you can catch your "non-political" friends off guard) , the easier it is to change public opinion and pass policy.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:52 PM

This is actually a case where state-level advocacy is important, but Federal prisons already prohibit the use of restraints during labor!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:52 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jeni Burns

“And Katie answered my question, lol.”

AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:52 PM

Yes, I try my best to link to all of the important work happening in the Cosmo piece
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:53 PM

And, this is totally a bi-partisan issue. At least here in MA, both sides of the table came together on this, recognizing it as a human right's issue
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:53 PM

Yeah, your piece is a link-a-thon, which is super helpful for anyone looking to get involved.
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:53 PM

And you can always grab Avital on twitter @themamafesto -- she's a great follow and also a great resource.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:53 PM

Thanks, Katie :)
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:54 PM

What? bipartisan?? ;)
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:54 PM

Shocking!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:54 PM

My next tawk won't be till the first week of June when I have Amanda from Fat Body Politics joining me, and then I'm open to suggestions if people have topics they want covered or hosts they'd like to hear from. Just drop me a line here,
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:55 PM

...on FB/twitter or at katiespeak.com :)
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:55 PM

These tawks are really excellent, Katie!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:55 PM

Thanks, lady!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:55 PM

You're an excellent co-host!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:55 PM

Thanks for popping in, Jessica!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:55 PM

And Megan!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:56 PM

Thanks again, Avital, for taking the time! I know you're busy -- I really appreciate it!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:56 PM

For anyone who missed the beginning, the transcript stays put, so you can scroll back through early topics.
AN

Avital Norman Nathman · 5:56 PM

Thanks all for taking the time to come and hear more about this subject!
KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:57 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jessica Oliva

“Thanks all! Gotta go back to work”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:57 PM

★ Spotlighted from Megan Smith

“Thanks for hosting, Katie, and thanks for tawking, Avital!”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:57 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lynne Schmidt

“Thanks Katie and Avital! You guys rock!”

KK

Katie Klabusich · 5:58 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jeni Burns

“Thanks, Katie and Avital! :) I was late, but this was definitely informative.”