KJ

Poker Tawk! Betting on Purpose!

May 8, 2013

Blake Ian
Stage· 180 messages
May 8, 2013
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:00 AM

KJ! Welcome back... How do you like the new digs?!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:02 AM

Hey All!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:03 AM

Looking good!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:03 AM

I got a slice of pizza in one hand and my keyboard in another and ready for some POKER TAWK!!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:03 AM

Haha excellent sir.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachael Workman

I was always told you gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.

Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:04 AM

Well we have decided at your suggestion, and a greta one I believe to focus in on one topic per Tawk so we can try to cover as much of it as we can...
KJ

Kenna James · 2:05 AM

Good point Rachel, very important! But tonight we're going to be tawking about When to Bet em, What type of bet, how much, etc.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:05 AM

Yes - So tonight it is about Betting on Purpose - let's see if we can stick to our purpose - lol
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:06 AM

Indeed we are, though Rachael's comment got me thinking... Next week maybe we breakdown the lyrics of The Gambler by Kenny Rogers?!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:06 AM

oh boy -
KJ

Kenna James · 2:06 AM

So - staying on purpose -
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:06 AM

But for now yes... back to the task at hand.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:06 AM

lol
KJ

Kenna James · 2:06 AM

See how easy it is to get
KJ

Kenna James · 2:06 AM

off purpose?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:07 AM

Totally... So betting. Let's start off simple. Let's define betting. Can you tell me the different types of bets there are?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:08 AM

Sure - there are many - let's start with some of the common ones
KJ

Kenna James · 2:08 AM

But first let me define what a BET is -
KJ

Kenna James · 2:08 AM

we can say a BET is an Initiating Wager
KJ

Kenna James · 2:08 AM

Some of the common types are;
KJ

Kenna James · 2:09 AM

CBet - Value Bet - UNDER BETnOVER BETnPOT SIZE OR DEFINING BETnALL IN BET
KJ

Kenna James · 2:10 AM

So there are a lot of different types of bets - but knowing what defines them and when to use them is vitally important
KJ

Kenna James · 2:10 AM

Betting is so crucial to poker because without Betting the game would be purely luck
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:10 AM

OK so on that point right there, as far as when to use the different types, we have a relevant question from the audience...
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Kelly Carlin

I would love to know how betting later in a tournament is different than earlier in one.

Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:11 AM

Can we help Kelly out here? or do we need more fundamentals first?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:11 AM

I like that Kelly - ask me about that later in the Tawk
KJ

Kenna James · 2:12 AM

I like that Kelly talks about DIFFERENCES
KJ

Kenna James · 2:12 AM

TWO of the main factors in differentiating a BET TYPE are 1. Size and 2. Intention (Purpose!)
KJ

Kenna James · 2:13 AM

For you women in the audience, let's tackle SIZE first...cause you're right!! Size does matter!!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:13 AM

Haha... Sharon Liss also has an interesting question about an aggressive better's position at the table in relation to you, but I have a feeling that's for a bit later too
KJ

Kenna James · 2:13 AM

yes
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:13 AM

Ok so Size..
KJ

Kenna James · 2:13 AM

Let's stay on purpose
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Sharon Liss

It's not the size of the stack, but how you handle it. LOL

KJ

Kenna James · 2:14 AM

So SIZE - Let's tawk about bet sizing and then we'll get to Betting on Purpose
KJ

Kenna James · 2:14 AM

LOL! Yes, well it turns out that it's BOTH Sharon. haha
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:14 AM

So what are some of the determining factors when deciding the size of a bet?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:15 AM

Okay, so let's start with the size of a CBET - (continuation bet) assuming everyone knows what that is - what size is your CBet Blake?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:16 AM

Are we looking for a witty remark... or would you like me to take a shot at seriously answering that?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:16 AM

Let's start serious and then see where it goes...
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:17 AM

I would take an educated guess and say the size of the continuation bet should depend on the size of the original bet
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:17 AM

and the amount of players in
KJ

Kenna James · 2:17 AM

This should be a predetermined amount btw - so answering this question alone will be helpful for your game
KJ

Kenna James · 2:18 AM

Thanks for the answer - now let's talk about what would be an effective CBet
KJ

Kenna James · 2:18 AM

A CBet should really be 50% of the pot
KJ

Kenna James · 2:18 AM

A little more or less is okay as well.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:18 AM

There are reasons for that, but I won't get into them now as we want to stay on point
KJ

Kenna James · 2:19 AM

Any questions or can we go on defining sizes?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:20 AM

No that's a pretty clear direction, a continuation should be half the pot. I think you've taught me that lesson already and it has been forgotten : /
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:20 AM

Great refresher!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lea Wolfe

Wont' the size of the C Bet be different depending on board texture and the amount of players?

KJ

Kenna James · 2:21 AM

What makes an "Under Bet" is its' relationship to the size of the pot of course - so if the pot is $100 an under bet would be 25 or less - I define an under bet as 25% of the pot or less
KJ

Kenna James · 2:21 AM

Great question Lea! Good to have you in the discussion. The answer is no.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:22 AM

Whether you make a CBet or not depends on board texture and # of players, but the size should always be the same.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:22 AM

Ahhh so the size is part of defining it
KJ

Kenna James · 2:22 AM

YES!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:22 AM

Makes sense to me Lea! You? :)
KJ

Kenna James · 2:22 AM

Like the size of a man, helps to define who he is...
KJ

Kenna James · 2:22 AM

well, kinda...lol
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:23 AM

Well size can be measured in many ways KJ.... ; )
KJ

Kenna James · 2:23 AM

Oh boy -
KJ

Kenna James · 2:23 AM

Okay - so now an "over bet"
KJ

Kenna James · 2:24 AM

An Over Bet is a bet that is more then the size of the pot
KJ

Kenna James · 2:24 AM

Most of these bet types have to do with their relationship to the size of the pot - of course
KJ

Kenna James · 2:25 AM

The rest are self explanatory except for - The Value Bet
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:25 AM

Man so many good questions tonight from the forum! Or am I just being lazy and sitting on the spotlight button?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

do you use an underbet when on a draw?

KJ

Kenna James · 2:25 AM

Good queston Jordan - as usual, you're ahead of the game - we'll get to that question when we get to Purpose
KJ

Kenna James · 2:26 AM

Yes, you're lazy and no you're not sitting on the spotlight button
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:26 AM

hahah
KJ

Kenna James · 2:26 AM

okay - so back on purpose ... lol
KJ

Kenna James · 2:26 AM

The VALUE BET
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:26 AM

The value bet!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:27 AM

One of the more fun bets to learn about
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:27 AM

Crafty! : P
KJ

Kenna James · 2:27 AM

A value bet is just what it says....betting for value
KJ

Kenna James · 2:27 AM

To make a Value Bet YOU MUST HAVE THE BEST HAND!!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:27 AM

Or believe you do of course
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:27 AM

wait wait
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:27 AM

question
KJ

Kenna James · 2:27 AM

yes
KJ

Kenna James · 2:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Kelly Carlin

So I need to be figuring out how big the pot is during each round of betting? Hmm. I definitely do not do this.

Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:28 AM

What if I know I do not have the best hand and I make a value bet to represent a value bet??
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:28 AM

is that not a value bet? is that called something else?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:28 AM

Yes Kelly - but you can use an approximation or just guage it, it doesn't have to be exact
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:29 AM

Like using the value bet as a bluff
KJ

Kenna James · 2:29 AM

Wow, that's deep Blake...good question.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:29 AM

Yes, that is what you would be doing....again that leads to purpose...we'll get there
KJ

Kenna James · 2:30 AM

A Value Bet however, is used to extract Value in a situation where you have the best hand and you are looking to get called by a lesser hand
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:30 AM

Got it... So what I'm tawking about is a different bet, posing as a value bet
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:31 AM

A sheep in wolf's clothing!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:31 AM

Well you are bluffing and using a Value Bet size to legitimize your bluff
KJ

Kenna James · 2:31 AM

Yes
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:32 AM

Ok, so now that you have clearly identified some of the typed of bets
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:32 AM

I'd lek to move to another couple of questions if that's ok with you?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:32 AM

Good points Vlad - we just happen to be focusing this Tawk on Betting
KJ

Kenna James · 2:33 AM

Sure, then we'll get to Purpose ....
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:34 AM

OK so I now in Doyle's Super System, he tawks about playing the rush... is this superstition, or is there some merit to this momentum betting?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:34 AM

wow the typos tonight! awful
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:34 AM

sorry folks
KJ

Kenna James · 2:35 AM

Playing the Rush is a topic we can tawk about - but it doesn't really fit tonights tawk - except for this point - In general - Be the Bettor never a Caller Be
KJ

Kenna James · 2:36 AM

So- let's move on to Purpose and Betting on Purpose
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:36 AM

Sounds good...
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:36 AM

Lead the way sir
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

auto-correct. a double-edged sword.

KJ

Kenna James · 2:37 AM

So one challenge is knowing what you want to do and how you want your opponent to respond
KJ

Kenna James · 2:38 AM

A common mistake I think players make is too often wanting their opponents to fold when they make a bet
KJ

Kenna James · 2:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lea Wolfe

Do these points apply to cash as well as tournies?

KJ

Kenna James · 2:39 AM

Yes! They apply to both tournies and cash.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:39 AM

Ok so that point you just made was SO big for me to learn
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:40 AM

and I of course learned it from you
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:40 AM

It has a lot to do with fear and risk
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:40 AM

Being afraid of a bet being called when you are confident you have the best hand
KJ

Kenna James · 2:41 AM

YES! An example of what I'm tawking about - "I'm betting because I want my opponent to fold and I want to win the pot right now.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:41 AM

Right, as you know risk was an adjustment we had to make in my game early on... and it helped my results tremendously
KJ

Kenna James · 2:41 AM

A Good Reason to Bet is to get Value from that Bet and to force your opponent to a tough decision
KJ

Kenna James · 2:41 AM

Good, I'm glad. :)
KJ

Kenna James · 2:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

if there is a draw on the board and you hyave top pair, should you try to induce the fold?

Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:42 AM

And when I say risk... it's funny because there is much less risk when you have the best hand at the time... but it still feels like the risk of getting sucked out on haha
KJ

Kenna James · 2:42 AM

Great question. No! This is a good example Jordan, thank you.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:43 AM

Right exactly Jordan
KJ

Kenna James · 2:43 AM

You should be bet sizing so that when your opponent calls with the Flush Draw, he's paying the wrong price to draw to his hand!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:43 AM

But you WANT HIM TO PAY THE PRICE!!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:43 AM

That is where your profit is made in poker.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:44 AM

Sports books want people to bet, because they are getting the wrong price!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:44 AM

That was the lesson I was tawking about... It's a larger view and take a lot of perspective and patience.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:44 AM

Similarly you want your opponents to CALL as long as they are getting the wrong price.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:44 AM

So the mistake in betting with the best hand is not betting enough... or giving them too good of a deal
KJ

Kenna James · 2:45 AM

Every time they pay the wrong price, you profit from that decision.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:45 AM

Well, that has to deal with the Size of the bet, not the fact that your betting the best hand
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:46 AM

Right, but what I mean is the mistake isn't betting itself, just making sure you don't give them too good of a price to draw
KJ

Kenna James · 2:46 AM

Your Intention should be to choose a type of bet that works best for your situation and put a PURPOSE behind it
KJ

Kenna James · 2:46 AM

The "Right" price to draw is what you don't want to give them
KJ

Kenna James · 2:47 AM

You also don't want to "price them out" of the pot either - otherwise you get no value for your bet
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:48 AM

So its a sweet spot... not too good of a deal, not too bad of a deal. It's haggling! haha
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:48 AM

My ancestors are known for this. ; )
KJ

Kenna James · 2:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from John Baker

Do you take into effect the pot odds or implied odds?

KJ

Kenna James · 2:48 AM

Yes, Blake. Remembering you want to give them the price they'll pay, but not shut them out of the store!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:49 AM

Good question John, glad you could join us!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:49 AM

Pot odds yes - implied odds, no. The implied odds is something he is figuring should he make his hand and gets you to call - but we don't call with the worse hand, right?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:50 AM

So his implied odds are going to be LESS then he thinks they are
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:50 AM

Does anyone else feel like I am the Norman to his Lon during these Tawks? Or is it just me? haha
KJ

Kenna James · 2:51 AM

I think it's more like Hardy to Laurel
KJ

Kenna James · 2:51 AM

hmmm...idk...nevermind...back on purpose
KJ

Kenna James · 2:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from John Baker

I like to bet just a shade over 1/2 the pot. Gives me the right odds most of the time.

KJ

Kenna James · 2:52 AM

I like this strategy in GENERAL, but there are many facets and aspects to the other types of bets that can prove useful
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:52 AM

OK, well we were going to try to keep these episodes to about an hour... in interests of doing that, I'd like to ask one final question, when you are ready...
KJ

Kenna James · 2:54 AM

For example - I may "Overbet" the pot with a set when I'm against an overly aggressive creative type of player who will take this as a sign of weakness and make a play against me
KJ

Kenna James · 2:54 AM

Okay, but first let me give some quick examples of Betting on Purpose before we go -
KJ

Kenna James · 2:54 AM

“I’m under betting the pot to show weakness so my opponent raises me”
KJ

Kenna James · 2:55 AM

“I’m Value betting to get value for my hand by getting a lesser hand to call”
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:55 AM

Well my question was going to be can you give an example but FINE!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:55 AM

“I’m making a defining bet to put my opponent to a tough decision”
KJ

Kenna James · 2:56 AM

LOL - well there's a few of them - you have the Type of Bet your making and the reason behind it
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

If Kenna is as disciplined at the table as he is in the Tawk, I would NOT like my chances...

Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:56 AM

You should indeed not like your chances at the table with Kenna, I speak from experience ; )
KJ

Kenna James · 2:57 AM

Thanks Guys - hope this Tawk Helped define some Bet Types and the Purpose for making them!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 2:57 AM

So my last question was... Everyone loves a poker story, can you give a specific example of a hand of betting to illustrate your points?
KJ

Kenna James · 2:57 AM

and was helpful to those looking to improve their game!
KJ

Kenna James · 2:57 AM

Hmmm.....sure.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:58 AM

I was playing in a 2-5 /10-50 mandatory straddle no-limit game yesterday
KJ

Kenna James · 2:58 AM

And I was owning this young LAG pro who was determined to beat me in a hand
KJ

Kenna James · 2:58 AM

The pot went down like this
KJ

Kenna James · 2:59 AM

I Open Raised to 25 w/ AT of clubs in EP and he called on the button.
KJ

Kenna James · 2:59 AM

The flipper fell T-8-6 and I CBet
KJ

Kenna James · 3:00 AM

with two to a suit btw
KJ

Kenna James · 3:00 AM

The turn fell an off-suit Q and we both checked
KJ

Kenna James · 3:01 AM

The river fell another 6 and I decided to make an Overbet at the pot and represent a missed draw or AK knowing he would be dying to look me up
KJ

Kenna James · 3:01 AM

I bet 275 into a pot that was around 200 and he called and disgustingly mucked his hand
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 3:01 AM

LOVE IT!
KJ

Kenna James · 3:02 AM

Knowing that my hand was good was really important here of course, and it was. :)
KJ

Kenna James · 3:02 AM

Thanks everyone for joining us and your GREAT questions - it really adds to the discussion
KJ

Kenna James · 3:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Vlad Basov

Where do you play Kenna? I'm on the road till WSOP.

Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 3:03 AM

Yup... thanks all and thanks Kenna for another educational Poker Tawk!
KJ

Kenna James · 3:03 AM

I play usually at Venetian, Aria or a traveling game that moves around to different casinos
KJ

Kenna James · 3:04 AM

You're welcome! Come join us next week if you can and we'll pick it back up and let us know what topic interests you the most on our Facebook page and perhaps we'll use it as our next platform.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 3:05 AM

Remember, if you are joining us late hit TOP to jump to the beginning... and search Poker to find our other Tawks!
KJ

Kenna James · 3:05 AM

Success is a Journey Not a Destination! Cya!