Melanie Berliet

Host

Should We Free The (Female) Nipple?

Aug 20, 2014·2,233 visitors

Kayt Sukel

Cohost

Stage· 262 messages

Aug 20, 2014

Nipples raise a lot of interesting questions. For instance, why do men have them? And why are we in the U.S. conditioned to believe that women should cover up their (obviously purposeful) nipples while men are free to bare their chests? Why is it such a big deal when celebrities like Beyonce breastfeed in public? As Instagram faces backlash for its prudish policies and the Free The Nipple campaign gains traction, it's time to address the hoopla surrounding this universal body part.

Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM

Good afternoon!

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

Hi!

Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM

I'm not exactly sure how long the Free The Nipple campaign has been around, but I became aware of it this summer.

Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM

http://www.freethenipple.com/

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

http://gawker.com/scout-willis-demands-nipples-on-instagram-with-topless-1582754269?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

Even Bruce Willis' daughter is into it!

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

Yes, the Instagram censorship of various celebs definitely brought the issue into the limelight

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

Yes! Rumer WIllis Held a Free The Nipple fundraiser in June via Elle: http://bit.ly/1ta8dAy

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

Kayt, for you is this a matter of two distinct issues: breast-feeding and women's right to be topless?

Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM

It is.

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

I ask because I think there are certain people who are only pro Nursing In Public (NIP)

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

So I had my son in Europe.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

Ah!

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

And, you have to understand, no one--and I mean NO ONE--bats an eye about public breastfeeding.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

You've read my mind. I was just going to ask if you were a public breast feeder!

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

But here, in the states, especially in cities, women are criticized for doing it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

It's not erotic.

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

It's not sexual.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

Boobs are also allowed in commercials for soap and whatnot

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

Most of the time you have a tired, worn out Mom just trying to sit down and feed her baby.

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

Yeah, that's the thing I cannot understand. Why do we oversexualize female nipples here?

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

Yet, these women get lambasted for it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

Alas, my son never took the breast. So I was a public breast pumper!

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

Not kidding--I'd pump on trains, in planes, out on my patio.

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

(I should note that I am the daughter of French people, and a person with French citizenship herself)

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

I'd hook myself up like a prize Holstein and let it loose!

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

public pumper!

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

I like that a lot

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Because the alternative?

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Sitting in my house all damn day and hiding from the world just because I chose to pump/breastfeed?

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Not even an option.

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

Why can't Americans separate a nipple while it is performing a function from a nipple during sex?

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

arguably nipples also perform a function during sex, so that was not the best way to phrase my question.

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

Well, I see the breastfeeding thing as another way of trying to "put women in their place."

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

But I suspect you know what I mean. Why can't we view a nipple as asexual when it is performing an asexual function?

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

To control them, to limit their options and to make them prisoners of their own bodies

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

Ah interesting.

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

We do view nipples as asexual! On men.

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

I had never thought about the limitations caused by forbidding public breastfeeding

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

And it's illegal in 35 US states!

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

There's a guy mowing my neighbor's lawn as I type this. He is not wearing a shirt. No one is getting upset whatsoever by his flagrant flaunting of his nipples.

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

In less tolerant places like Louisiana, an exposed nipple can take a woman to jail for up to three years and cost $2,500 in fines.

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

must be nice to go topless on a hot day!

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

But even when it's not illegal, you still get a lot of judgment.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

A lot of stares. A lot of comments.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

i will say, though, that I've been thinking about the fact that so few women are taking advantage of the legality of baring their chests here in New York City. WHy?

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

Have you tried it?

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

I have not! But I was thinking I should.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

It is legal to bare your chest in Austin. I did it once.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

Back in my 20's.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Because if I don't free my nipples, no one else will.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

I got a lot of catcalls.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

Like while sun tanning or walking around?

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

(I did it on a dare).

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

You're awesome

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

Walking around. I lost a bet.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

how did it feel?

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

It felt weird. It felt like I was getting a lot of unwanted attention.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

right.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

I think it will take a very long time to normalize the behavior

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

That my breasts somehow preceded my body.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

interesting

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

as if you were trying to signal I WANT SEX

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

Exactly!

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

Because what kind of nice girl would show her boobs if she wasn't looking for sex?

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

what will it take for people not to look at bare breasts that way?

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

Well, for me, it was living in Europe for 7 years.

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

bare FEMALE breasts, I should specify

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

You go to the pool or the beach and people change right in front of you.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Even if they aren't going topless, they tend to take EVERYTHING off as they put on their togs.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Outside, in public, without a care.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

it sounds so much easier and nicer

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

All kids are topless at the beach and pool starting from a young age.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

They seem women topless at the beach and pool starting from a young age.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

yup!

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

They see women breastfeeding in public.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

And it just ain't a thing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

I wonder what the Europeans think of Instagram's prudish policies?

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

I remember the first time I went to a topless beach, I was all, "OMG, everyone is naked! BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS!"

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

I mean, how ridiculous that they're so strict

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

And then, after a few years, I didn't even notice.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

They think we're ridiculous.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

I guess time and exposure are key

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

because we are!

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

I remember one of my neighbors commenting that American men are afraid of women.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

ha. do you think that's accurate?

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

I kind of understand the sentiment

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

You know, it makes me sound like a feminist conspiracist, but a little.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

I think that there is this pervasive notion that women have a certain place.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

And if we work, if we use birth control, if we breastfeed, if we embrace our sexuality, we can't stay in that place.

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

and this silly idea that men cannot control themselves in front of us

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

which belittles men

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

Not just silly--that's insulting!

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

Is a boob really that enticing?

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

I mean, I think of a penis.

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

Out of context, it ain't that appealing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

I read about this artist who was censored by instagram for a photograph of her lower half. She was wearing cotton underpants. there was no explicit nudity

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

I would have to think that a breast is the same.

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

Petra Collins, an artist http://bit.ly/VyQENm

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

In Petra's word "Recently I had my Instagram account deleted. I did nothing that violated the terms of use. No nudity, violence, pornography, unlawful, hateful, or infringing imagery. What I did have was an image of MY body that didn't meet society's

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

Cotton panties are dangerous, apparently.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

it may have been a bikini bottom

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

but i mean, how ridiculous

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

Instagram is way stricter than Twitter

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

I know this because I'm buddies with a cam girl and she can post a lot racier photos to her Twitter feed than Instagram

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

Beheaded journalists, OK! Breastfeeding women, NO NO NO NO NO!

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

Very good point.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

I fully appreciate the people like Cara Delevigne, who have been tauting Instagram: Cara Delvigne goes topless on Instagram to protest censorship of female bodies: http://bit.ly/1BtqWLi

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

Indeed!

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

I think every time we buck the standard, we do ourselves a service.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

And I trust you've seen that bikini top with nipples drawn on it that's for sale these days

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

I think about flappers bringing about shorter dresses and no corsets.

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

Our Moms' generation, who brought the mini-skirt.

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

But you need critical mass.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

right. people like to defend convention on the grounds that they constitute TRADITION, I've noticed

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

Tradition? Women have been baring breasts artfully for centuries.

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

So true.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

http://www.ekduncan.com/2012/03/naughty-side-of-18th-century-french.html

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

But even that link gives a nod to "naughty"

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

I think the cause might just need to ramp up more celebrity advocates

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

As if a boob automatically means sex.

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

But is that how mini skirts came to be accepted? by celebrity advocates?

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

It wasn't just celebrities.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

Or by celebrities, not just actresses/singers.

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

We also had Gloria Steinem, political activists.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

maybe Michelle Obama needs to go topless

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

that would help!

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

Have you ever been censored online, Kayt?

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

There was this famous photo of a woman in European Parliament breastfeeding: http://womennewsnetwork.net/2014/01/27/women-work-breastfeed/

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

Oh I remember that shot! I loved that.

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

What might happen if a government staffer or, hell, Congresswoman breastfed at work?

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

I have not been censored.

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

You?

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

I once posted a photo to instagram that was a bunch of little penises in checkered format. It was a joke. the next day, without warning or notice, the photo just disappeared

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

They do that.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

And I have had friends get photos deleted.

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

And the photo taken of me naked (but w/o any of my pink parts showing) for my book cover with nixed as an option by Amazon and Apple: http://bit.ly/VyT3rF

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Breastfeeding and even bikini shots.

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

In place of the original shot, we had to use a retro family portrait

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Your nipples weren't even showing!

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

I know!

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

It was meant to evoke vulnerability

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Apparently, a woman's body is really scary.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Or offensive.

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

I think nudity can mean so many things aside from SEX

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Indeed.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

My favorite wine was banned in some states because of its label.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/31/cycles-gladiator-wine-ban_n_248591.html

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

Is it even possible to set some kind of standard distinguishing art from gratuitous nudity?

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

is any nudity gratuitous?

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

Well, the Supreme Court ruled that they know pornography when they see it.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

I didn't know that.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

what constitutes pornography, according to SCOTUS?

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

Justice Potter Stewart used that line in Jacobellis v. Ohio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

Free speech doesn't include hard-core pornography.

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

i didn't know that.

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

Yep, it's an interesting case.

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

free doesn't exactly mean free then!

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

Based on a movie that was considered obscene.

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

It does not.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

But I would say, even with the squishiness of Stewart's line about "knowing it when I see it," a bared breast is not hardcore pornography.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

Have you seen Midnight Cowboy? Wasn't that the first or only x-rated film to win the Best Picture Oscar?

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

I have not seen it!

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

The whole film ratings system is such a joke

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

Oh you must! It is SO GOOD

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

But I do remember seeing "Henry and June," the first NC-17 movie.

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

I saw it with my parents.

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

but it does not deserve an x rating

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

violence disturbs me WAY more than nudity

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

And we don't seem to have a problem with violence.

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

violence gives me nightmares.

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

it's celebrated!

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

That's another interesting thing about all this.

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

Blood is A-OK. Boobs are not.

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

Why are boobs considered more dangerous? Especially to young minds?

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

Right. Is there any science about the psychological impact of being exposed to violence versus being exposed to sex scenes

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

i know only of studies regarding overexposure to pornography.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

There are definitely studies regarding exposure to violence.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

They change the brain, make people more prone to impulsivity, violence themselves.

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

yikes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

But it's tricky.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

A, how do you define violence/sexual content?

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

B, How do you define exposure?

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

yeah, those are tough parameters to set

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

Here's the thing: every thing you come into contact with, everything you experience has the power to change your brain.

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

Brains are a prediction machine, basically.

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

and i think it's probably so dependent upon the individual, too. i mean, some people want violent sex

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

They take information from experience so you can apply it and predict might what happen in the future.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

So, obviously, if you are going to get a lot of a certain type of input, it's going to color the way you interpret the world.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

But then you have the whole cultural bias thing at work.

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

everything in moderation, including moderation!

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

For centuries, families lived in one room homes, families shared beds.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

Parents did not stop having sex.

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

Do you sometimes worry about some of the impact our culture is having on your kids?

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

Kids who grew up on farms can tell you all about how horses and sheep mate.

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

for instance, would you prefer they were raised in a culture that embraces bare female breasts?

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

These things don't have to be "bad" unless the culture deems it so.

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

Like breasts.

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

I preferred Europe in that regard for him.

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

(1) Women aren't just objects. And (2) he learns that bodies shouldn't be tied to shame.

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

but I'm guessing you can instill that in him at home

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

We can try.

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

and her!

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

But it's tough when the rest of the world has an opinion.

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

And they have to walk that world.

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

I'm starting to feel as if it's my duty on some level to go bare chested at some point soon.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

How do you explain, "Oh, it's okay if you go topless in the backyard, honey. But you can't do it at the pool!"

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

I think you should try it!~

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

But, I'm telling you, you will get a lot of unwanted attention.

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

I would be interested to see the difference between people's reactions to me bare chested solo, and bare chested while breastfeeding

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

People tend to be more understanding about breastfeeding.

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

but I'll have to have a child to do that experiment properly!

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

As long as you cover up. God forbid a nipple pops out!

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

there are disgruntled mothers staging "nurse-ins" http://ti.me/1qjEDna

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

Yes, and I love that they do that.

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

That's one of the ways to start.

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

However, that said, a lot of these women say, before they were ousted, "I was covered up!"

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

It is actually National Go Topless Day this Sunday, August 24th!

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

I almost forgot to mention that

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

I feel like women are doing themselves a disservice.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

it occurs annually, on the Sunday before Women's Equality Day

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

It's not always easy to breastfeed all covered up.

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

I can attest that it's damn near impossible to pump while doing so.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

having to worry about covering up totally defeats the purpose of being able to breastfeed in public, doesn't it?

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

sounds more annoying than staying home

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

Also, another thing I wanted to address is that male nipples are not asexual

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

No, they aren't.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

Am I right about that Kayt?

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

so men can be sexually stimulated by their nipples too, right?

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

They are an erogenous zone--and Larry Young, a neuroscientist who studies oxytocin, believes they are still on men because they release feel good chemicals during sex that help make social bonds.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

I think a lot of people think male nipples are totally without use, but that's not the case.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

interesting

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

Evolution doesn't always make logical sense--but there is usually good reason for certain traits to be conserved.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

Why do men have nipples? via Scientific American: http://bit.ly/1bqpq2u

Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM

Not every trait has an adaptive explanation.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

http://www.livescience.com/23500-why-men-love-breasts.html

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

You should go wander about topless for National Topless Day.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

And let me know how it goes!

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

I really should!

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

or wearing this: Free The Nipple bikini top http://huff.to/1wygaA1

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

which is almost funnier

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

It is! I saw a beach cover-up that had a naked woman on it, too, recently.

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

too good.

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

halloween costume!

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

In closing, I think it's important to note that Free The Nipple is an equality movement above all

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

Very true.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

Women's bodies should not be the source of shame.

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

so free your nipples already!

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

I will be interested to see how it plays out over the next year or two!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

me too.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

Let your nipples roam!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

maybe female nipples are the new miniskirts

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

Thanks for an interesting Tawk, Melanie!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

You too, Kayt!

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

Next time, we'll be talking about busy-ness.

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

We'll be back in two weeks!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

until then. I'm reachable at melanie dot berliet at gmail dot come

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

com (I always do that)

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

See you then!

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

COME! =)

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

And I'm at info@kaytsukel.com.

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

Until then!