Rebecca Westbrook Toker

Host

Small is Beautiful Chapter 1

Dec 7, 2013·39 visitors

Aaron Meyers

Cohost

Stage· 371 messages

Dec 7, 2013

Returned Peace Corps Volunteer and Green Business Guru Aaron Meyers returns to give us an an introduction to Buddhist Economics via EF Schumacher's seminal work, Small is Beautiful. Get a copy and follow along as we explore "Economics as if People Mattered."nnFree PDF version of Small is Beautiful at http://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/student/~pdarshan/SmallIsBeautifulSchumacher.pdf

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

Whoo, that countdown gets me every time!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

Welcome, everyone!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Waiting on Aaron - he may be refreshing his browser.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

That sounds like a euphemism, doesn't it?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

i should have fixed another drink before it all started

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Rick, you might need another drink. Economics sucks. As currently conceived and measured, anyway.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

i sortah enjoy economics

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

Cool! Why?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

i figure if you study you might get rich off the stuff

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

Maybe. Maybe that's true. But my recent examinations of history indicate that the chances are pretty slim. Not to rain on the dream parade or anything.

Aaron Meyers · 2:03 AM

hey hey

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

Hey, buddy!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

How's it been? Haven't caught up with you in awhile!

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

too true

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

so yes, while economics due suck, you can make money

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

but its usually more finance oriented

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

economics, as employed, usually ends up in broad policy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

You need money to make money, right?

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

because it looks at scales beyond single or even small organizations

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

which gets us to the point of why we are here

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

economic theory has a scale too big to be useful in many instances

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

Nice segue.

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

before I begin, due to my job, as becky knows, I am obligated to start the discussion by saying that anything I say doesn't not come from or represent an opinion by the people I work for - the EPA

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

For any new Tawkers, remember to log in if you'd like to comment as an audience member. :)

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

its the disclaimer I have to give in order to get permission to speak on anything environmentally related

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

so,, Beckers, where would you like to begin?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

And economics does involove the environment, as Schumacher pointedly states in Chapter 1!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

Well, to begin,\

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

I think we need to introduce EF Schumacher and put him in context a bit.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

Small is Beautiful was printed in 1972.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

He died in 77.

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

hes often called the Keynes of post industrialism

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

Notwithstanding, his work is as pertinent now as it was a generation ago,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

which is to say, we have gone further down the rabbit hole.

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

Rick, I cant answer that, its not my field of work - not information I have

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

did the EPA have any say to the chemicals they dumped to "eat the oil" after Horizon went down in the gulf?

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

if you want to know about that I would suggest a FOIA request, EPA lets you do them online

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

so in terms of credentials

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

Rick, do you mean "are still dumping"? Ahem. But I digress.

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

EF shumacker was an economics advisor to the british control comission

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

and a top economist in the british coal board

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

he was also president of the soil association

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

which is one of the UK's oldest organic farming organizations

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

he was also a sponsor of the fourth world movement and the scott bader company

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

so, hes got credentials

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

Credentials. Stature.

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

both in the industrial "drill baby drill" side, and the hippy granola side

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

Well, after drilling and economizing, he called the bluffs of his own profession.

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

right

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

Which is interesting.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

It's hard to explain the import of what he did in his last decade on earth.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

He...called modern society's bluffs.

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

well lets bring it back down in scale

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

we don't have to sell the idea so much as present what it is

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

He saw the oil and environmental crises of the 1970s and sided with the earth instead of with dollars - er, pounds, as he was British.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Yeah, taht's true.

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

and its more than an environmentalist argument

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

Indeed.

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

its a deep flaw in Keynesian economics

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

lets begin with the idea that economics is a social science

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

Yes!

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

yet more quantified than most hard sciences

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

does it strike anyone as a good idea to quantify people, then base your decisions upon it?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

Okay, so economics is regarded as a science, as something based on natural laws.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Hahahaha. Yeah, that.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Yet, that's what governments do.

Aaron Meyers · 2:17 AM

there are several flaws that tend to creep up and can even be seen in the mathematics

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

They have economic advisors who make sweeping judgements about trends in human behavior and then...they drive the country based on those generalizations.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

Yes. Economics is based on SEVERAL assumptions about humans.

Aaron Meyers · 2:17 AM

for example, most economic advisories do not treat natural resources as capital

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

What they want, what they need, what they will accept, and why they do what they do.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Economics is too imprecise to be considered a science, in my opinion...”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

That's kind of the thing, isn't it?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

Yes. That brings us to the most glaring oversight of modern economics as i see it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Natural resources are spent, like income, as if we could replace them.

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

its not only that

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

We cannot, by the way.

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

its bigger

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Oh yeah?

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

its the 5th wheel issue

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

lets look at it this way

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

you want to base your economic decisions based upon what people will do right?

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

logically

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

whats going to be easier to predict, how 2 people will act as a group, or 100,000

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

But...that's a prediction. In Spanish, will do is subjunctive, or unsure in tense. Because you don't know, you can only guess.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:21 AM

So WTF? Isn't that, like, a huge weakness of economics?

Aaron Meyers · 2:21 AM

yes

Aaron Meyers · 2:21 AM

so lets talk more about mass predictions

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

i like mass predictions

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

the basic concept of capitalism, the adams smith wealth of nations style economics - is that people act in their best interest\

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

correct?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

Yeah.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

But...best interest is subjective,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

and based on the best information they have available.

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

well if you treat an entire organization as a unit, acting in their best interest

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

Then we stop global warming!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

Yay!

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

the larger the organization, the more opportunity you add for people who will descent against the best interest

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“What they THINK is their best interests. People are dumb...”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

did i miss who adam smith is?

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

which means that there has to be a point, a size, in which that adams smith style capitalism breaks down

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

writer of the wealth of nations rick

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

Adam Smith wrote The Weath of nations, the holy book of modern economics - which is an ideology.

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

father of modern economics - capitalism

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

Ah, yes. best interest has a scale limit.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

Explain that.

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

so that is the big flaw, the larger the unit the more you get away from a model that directs people to do what they should want to do

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Wasn't the flaw in capitalism revealed in "A Beautiful Mind?"”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

Or real life?

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

that was a flaw

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

it has several

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

lets look at what this concept without a scale limit has led to

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

Indeed. the concept of perpetual growth is incredibly flawed since we live in a finite system.

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

we know that large economies tend to be based around large production setups

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

make more stuff, profit

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

so we then have economic advisors that try to help third worlds by setting up large manufacturing

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“if it's subjective, then asking people to conserve a little water or other resource today so they'll have more tomorrow only hits home when people who have not had those things up until now know what it's like to live without them. Most people have'n”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

Good example.

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

artificially induce production until they can stand on their own feet

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

like modern india

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

Yeah. Imposition of arachaic industrail model economics on underdeveloped nations.

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

or, Honduras, and textiles

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

becky can tell you some about that

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

yes. the EVEN SHADIER side of that is that the industries that go into these countries are rarely locally-owned.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

Local materials are not bought to produce the items.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

And often the infrastructure is financed with high-interest loan by rigch countries to the poor countries' governments.

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“The Roman Empire never fell...it just changed forms a few times.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

So, this creates a massive move to the cities by very poor people - rural abandonment.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

But the developing cities rarely have enough infrastructure to support the new immigrants. So slums are created.

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

what its actually producing is poverty

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

There are rarely enough jobs for the numbers of job seekers. So poor people are still poor, but now cannot feed themselves because they live ina city.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

We could do better.

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

the system ghandi promoted was to produce things in typically indian ways, with an indian identity

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

YES!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

On a small scale, respecting tradition.

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

and gradually improve, rather take a risk on a quantum leap ahead

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

And local technology.

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

let me show you another example

Aaron Meyers · 2:32 AM

let me tell you about a little something called the resuse everything institute

Aaron Meyers · 2:32 AM

you can find them online

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

Reuse Everything? Like, produce nothing new?

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

they're a project born of a strategy professor in the sustainability movement

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

and deeply flawed

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

http://www.reuseeverything.org/

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Hollywood has been doing that for years.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

Also deeply flawed...

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

they are partnered with an ngo that operates out of ecuador

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

in the choco Andean region

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

5th most biodiverse area in the world

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

Oh. Now I'm nervous.

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

their primary source of income is bird watching tours

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

to tourists

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

the primary social activity of the women in the area is making thatch roofs

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

this "institute" has spent near or above 6 figures creating a machine

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

An actual machine?

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

yes

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

and getting the patents

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

To thatch the rooves, right?

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

yes

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

by shredding plastic soda bottles

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

and making the roofs faster

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

But, why?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

Because, faster?

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

so we've picked up a few pounds of liter

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

and made roofs faster

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

But the rooves won't biodegrade...

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

taken the last social activity women have

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

away

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

So what happens to the trash?

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

and put bpa filled plastic on the roofs

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

where birds make nests

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

and lay eggs

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

Great!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

Are the rooves any better?

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

and all of this in a country that doesn't have the landfill problem we do

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Then, WHY?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Because, helping.

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

so, we like things faster, and we don't like landfills, therefore, these people must want things faster and not be okay with landfills

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

So where do they get the danged bottles?

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

and sucks to them if they mind losing the matriarch social activity and if theres enough hormonal damaging chemicals in the roofs to kill of local bird populations

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

Do they ship them in? Because that's pretty impressive. bring trash in. "Murica!

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

put enough bpa near the nest and in 10 years you have a bunch of tiny penis'd birds that cant reproduce

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

hopefully, with any luck, their device wont catch on

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

but that is "help" through mass production systems for you

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

Yeah. So why doesn't someone make them stop? Or at least lean over and whicper, "Uh, hey guys...you should probably know..."

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“and they are using those water bottles for the 1,00 points of light project to light home via water bottles in the roofs...genius..pure genius IMHO”

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

people cant make them stop, they got the funding and theres no regulations against it

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

and people have said something, but the people who are doing it have their career invested in it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

@Jane That shouldn't affect birds, though - it's not the whole roof.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

This is the problem with Gringos...

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

by people I mean me, I studied strategy under the founder for my mba

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

and asked him directly if he had tested for the bpa leaching

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

he said it was sadly too late because too much of his scholarly research is based on the project, he cant afford to derail it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:42 AM

THIS IS WHY I DON'T TRUST SCIENCE!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

SCIENCE IS MOTIVATED BY ECONOMICS, WHICH IS NOT A SCIENCE!

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

Jane, you give those water bottles enough time to effect a local population and get into the hormonal system they'll kill more than cats

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

read silent spring by Rachel carson

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“true dat. Cats probably kill more birds than water bottles..I dunno, gotta choose somehow.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

what actually happens is that the chemical is so pervasive in a local area that it makes the entire population of an animal type infertile

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

so in that local area, it wipes things out, way more effect than cats

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:44 AM

bpa IS NOT A JOKE. btw, STOP EATING FOOD OUT OF TIN CANS. tHE CANS ARE ALMOST ALL LINED WITH bpa, WHICH IS A KNOWN HORMONE DISRUPTOR.

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

I don't know Jordan, but we are trying are hardest

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

just give it time

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“How is it that humanity isn't extinct yet?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

and well put rick

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

that's sad, water bottle kills sexy times

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

For people, too. So...seriously about the food in cans.\

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“i'm getting educated here Rebecca...I like it”

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

many companies now label and sell things that are bpa free

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

Thanks, jane. :) Can you post a link to the Points of light project fo rthese guys?

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

most notably in recent history, wal mart decided to not by most anything that has bpa in it

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

one of the few good things they did

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:46 AM

That's happening, but I wouldn't say MANY companies.

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

cuz when wal mart says they wont buy it, people usually stop making it all together

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

that's the power of being the primary bulk buyer

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

I don't know the film jordan

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

Aaron is, not a WalMart apologist, but at least a presenter of the good initiatives that they have.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Anyone else thinking of the film "Children Of Men?"”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

Everyone is infertile.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

One lady has the first baby in, like a generation or two.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

Very dystopian.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Children of Men - humanity loses the ability to reproduce about 20 years before the story starts...”

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

so one of the other interesting things that you can look at, at your own will, is a group called the EF Schumacher society

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

It was probably BPA-related...

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

what they do, is they set up local currencies

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

most no bigger than small towns in the US

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

all with their own bills

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

what it does is it keeps an economy local

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

Anyway, since we're still digressing, i have concerns about the BPA replacement chemicals. Maybe they're worse? Who knows./ No disclosure, no studeis.

Aaron Meyers · 2:49 AM

which means they are small enough, coordinated enough, and have enough of a unified identity, that their decisions are actually in their best interest

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

YES!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

EF Schumacher society should be on the world's radar.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

Vastly important social experiment.

Aaron Meyers · 2:50 AM

is a fascinating project, usually works

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

Which is to say, on eof Schumacher's biggest points is "HUMAN-SIZED" technology, government, societies.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

Humans operating on a scale that is appropriate.

Aaron Meyers · 2:51 AM

it is a hard discussion to wrap around, because the first thing people do when they start to read into it

Aaron Meyers · 2:51 AM

is look for examples

Aaron Meyers · 2:51 AM

but then they look at national examples

Aaron Meyers · 2:51 AM

when the whole point is to be of a smaller scale

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

And Capitalism has run the show for so long that there aren't any examples.

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

we'll talk about that more in a future chapter when we start to talk about Buddhist economics

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

Yes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

and the idea of a gross national happiness

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

So back to chapter 1 with 10-ish minutes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

lol

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

Geez, we digressed.

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

I think we've covered a lot of it

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

a lot of chapter one is just the barest view of the problem

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

answers in the future

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

lol jane

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

Schumacher indicates that our current economic system is flawed because it fails to calculate the true cost of production.

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

we measure a quantity of production

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

but we don't incorporate the cost of using environmental capital

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:54 AM

But not the cost in terms of actual input.

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

in terms of what is taken away from us when it is used to make another thing

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:54 AM

Yes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“titty sweat rules the world”

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

Rick, you clearly need another drink

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

And also the toll that industrialization takes on the human soul. Which can't be measured, so is discounted.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

Human capital.

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

it is the cost of production jane, but do they subtract the cost to environmental quality?

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

or the loss of park space?

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

the true cost production is not accounted

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

Or the loss of time to GO to the park?

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

exactly

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

Or the years that some work takes off your life by wearing out your back>

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

so the idea of the gross national happiness, is what you get versus what you lost

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Soul-ar energy.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

Love it!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

He also mentions that we are abusing the tolerance margins of the earth.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:57 AM

The space we have to fuck up while the earth corrects it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:57 AM

And this was 42 years ago.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:57 AM

We may be irreversible now.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

i only ride the subway nowadays

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

Well, that's a move in the right firection. :)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

We may have lost Aaron.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

Oh, he's back!

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

nah, im still here

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

firection. That's a heck of a typo...

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

just looking at the time and thinking we may have ran through chapter 1

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

so, every week or so we'll touch back on a new chapter each time

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

I think we did. Chapter 2 is entitled, "Peace and Permanence."

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“@Rebecca, the back does get worn out, after awhile you quit telling people you'll help them move”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

LOL, Jane.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

True words.

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

as a practice in these talks I like to mention related things, projects et c

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

Peace and Permanence are pretty attractive concepts, huh.

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

if anyone wants more in depth info or a talk just on that topic, let becky or myself know

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

So - we'll see you back next Friday to see how they might apply to production, which is neither.

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

catch ya'll later!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

is everyone leaving?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Very fun everybody! Look forward to the next one!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“night all...tried to stay on topic, but I digress”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

I guess so, Rick!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

But we can stay if you want. ;P

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I'll hang with ya, buddy.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

Seriously, though - did you guys read Ch 1? What did you think?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

i didn't know i was suppose to read

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Haven't read. Must.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“woo hoo..Stove Top, I'm staying !!!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

Ha ha.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

Aaron did go - promised the lady friend.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

Yes, I think it's a pretty essential read. it's very powerful, and Schumacher's style is fun. Fast.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I feel like digression is getting a bad name...”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“My entire culture is founded on it”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

you give digression, a bad name

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

(humming bon jovi)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“I'm just catching up on Schmacher right now...I will read it and Rebecca I have no idea how I got here or where I know you from I went to my e-mail saw the invite and here I am”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

Cool! And serendipitous. ;)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

One thing we didn't mention, Schumacher is very anti nuclear.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

I am also, for the same reasons - you shouldn't make waste you can't contain.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

Any thoughts here?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

Because I find myself in a very frowned-upon minority often.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

this is true, or drill where you can't send divers to fix things

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“That's why I don't eat Mexican.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

LOL, Jordan.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

And spot-on, Rick.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

yes, i think they are still using Corexit in the Gulf. thanks, guys.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

there is no reason they should still be using it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

Or ever have used it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

The thing is, the leak isn't capped completely. Like Fukishima.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

So using Corexit keeps it out of sight and out of mind.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

But I suspect it may be worse for fish than BPA is for birds...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

they should have left the fire blazing to burn it off

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

At least we'd have to SEE and acknowledge it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

It's just, who the fuck is even in charge anymore?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

Don't you guys wonder?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

Like, who allows this?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

Who thinks this is a good idea?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

Is it, like, a bunch of 15-year-olds?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I thought it was you, Rebecca.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Second”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

Rebecca for president

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

I'm sure I'd fuck it up, too.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:10 AM

I'm just saying, you know?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:10 AM

we'd be your advisor

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:10 AM

that sounds scary

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:10 AM

Ha ha, the collective we.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

Maybe we should just start small-scale with a Schumacher society and see if we could steer that ship, first.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Rick, you want domestic or international?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

probably better at domestic

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

i'd forget to take my shoes off and ruin a cultural relationship

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Sweet! I'm going to Italy. See you guys!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

You guys are great! Thanks so much for hanging out.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

I'll see you next Friday?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

And i think i have a Tawk on public education with Rachel on Wednesday.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

And then, the really fun one will be the 19th with Jordan. ;)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

it will feature Italy prominently.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

your welcome, see ya when

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

Jordan gets back from his travels

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“You and Rick should do a. Tawk!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“same bat time, same bat channel..till Friday”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

I think so, too - just looking for that spark to find out what.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

i'd be up for it - but it can't be anything serious

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Guaranteed audience member right here.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

Haha - see, that's the catch - Rick is a definite audience winner. Love seeing him in the crowd.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

If we're tawking, he can't heckle.\

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“anybody ehre on FB?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Yes jane! Friend me!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

Pretty much everyone is.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

Jane, let's figure out how we know each other!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

omg i gotta go, g'night

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“There's too many Jane Smith's”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“maybe that's how I know you”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“Kewl..going there now”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:16 AM

Okay, good night everyone. thanks again. <3

Forum · 66

Forum· 66 comments

39 visitors

Tawkers AdminDec 2, 2013, 11:48 PM

Free PDF copy of Small is Beautiful available here: http://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/student/~pdarshan/SmallIsBeautifulSchumacher.pdf

Tawkers AdminDec 6, 2013, 8:19 PM

Welcome to the Forum! To get involved, click "Who's Here" and then FOLLOW people.

Tawkers AdminDec 6, 2013, 8:19 PM

Once 25 people gather in the audience, a comment needs at least one LIKE to become visible to the two Hosts and anyone not following them. So LIKE the comments you want everyone to see!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:12 AM

Game on!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:12 AM

Mai brotha

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:13 AM

What are you drinking, Rick?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:15 AM★ Spotlighted

Economics is too imprecise to be considered a science, in my opinion...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:16 AM

Potato vodka and tonic

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:21 AM

@rick you mean like taking a guess while in Church?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:23 AM

What's he wearing under the robe?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:23 AM★ Spotlighted

What they THINK is their best interests. People are dumb...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:25 AM★ Spotlighted

Wasn't the flaw in capitalism revealed in "A Beautiful Mind?"

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:26 AM★ Spotlighted

if it's subjective, then asking people to conserve a little water or other resource today so they'll have more tomorrow only hits home when people who have not had those things up until now know what it's like to live without them. Most people have'n

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:27 AM

Good point @Jane

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:29 AM★ Spotlighted

The Roman Empire never fell...it just changed forms a few times.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:33 AM★ Spotlighted

Hollywood has been doing that for years.

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:40 AM★ Spotlighted

and they are using those water bottles for the 1,00 points of light project to light home via water bottles in the roofs...genius..pure genius IMHO

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:41 AM

What's the points of light project?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:42 AM

Like Lite Brite?

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:42 AM★ Spotlighted

true dat. Cats probably kill more birds than water bottles..I dunno, gotta choose somehow.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:44 AM★ Spotlighted

How is it that humanity isn't extinct yet?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:45 AM

Lol @rick!

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:45 AM★ Spotlighted

i'm getting educated here Rebecca...I like it

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:45 AM★ Spotlighted

Anyone else thinking of the film "Children Of Men?"

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:46 AM

I got into a big battle on Fb about letting my cat outdoors...the women folk wills cratch your eyeballs out for doing that...seriously

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:46 AM

Screw them! Let the kitties run wild!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:47 AM★ Spotlighted

Children of Men - humanity loses the ability to reproduce about 20 years before the story starts...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:48 AM

Lol @rebecca!

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:53 AM

Gross !!! National Happiness...who wants that..lol

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:53 AM

Lol @Jane

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:54 AM★ Spotlighted

titty sweat rules the world

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:54 AM

that's the cost of production

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:55 AM

woo hoo, lets hear it for titty sweat

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:55 AM

earth

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:55 AM★ Spotlighted

Soul-ar energy.

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:57 AM

do they even have a Dept of Human Resources anymore? (whoever they are)

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 2:57 AM

@rick - something you do with your car

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 2:59 AM★ Spotlighted

@Rebecca, the back does get worn out, after awhile you quit telling people you'll help them move

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:00 AM★ Spotlighted

night all...tried to stay on topic, but I digress

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Very fun everybody! Look forward to the next one!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:01 AM★ Spotlighted

I'll hang with ya, buddy.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:02 AM★ Spotlighted

Haven't read. Must.

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:02 AM★ Spotlighted

woo hoo..Stove Top, I'm staying !!!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:03 AM★ Spotlighted

I feel like digression is getting a bad name...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:03 AM★ Spotlighted

My entire culture is founded on it

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:04 AM

Shot through the heart, and you're to blame, you give digression...a bad name!

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:04 AM★ Spotlighted

I'm just catching up on Schmacher right now...I will read it and Rebecca I have no idea how I got here or where I know you from I went to my e-mail saw the invite and here I am

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:04 AM

@Rick...so funnneee

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:04 AM

Verrrry

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:05 AM

Yeah, Jane come hang with us again. We're aight.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:06 AM★ Spotlighted

That's why I don't eat Mexican.

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:06 AM

that is funny stuff Jordan

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:07 AM

If you take 100 shots, you're bound to hit one or two...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:09 AM★ Spotlighted

I thought it was you, Rebecca.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Second

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:10 AM★ Spotlighted

Rick, you want domestic or international?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Sweet! I'm going to Italy. See you guys!

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:12 AM★ Spotlighted

same bat time, same bat channel..till Friday

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:13 AM★ Spotlighted

You and Rick should do a. Tawk!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:14 AM★ Spotlighted

Guaranteed audience member right here.

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:14 AM★ Spotlighted

anybody ehre on FB?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:14 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes jane! Friend me!

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:15 AM★ Spotlighted

Kewl..going there now

Jane SmithDec 7, 2013, 3:15 AM★ Spotlighted

maybe that's how I know you

Jordan BirnbaumDec 7, 2013, 3:15 AM★ Spotlighted

There's too many Jane Smith's

Global Culture Exchange Centre Africa Uganda DirectorDec 13, 2013, 6:59 PM

I send Greetings from Charles Bikorwomuhangi, director Global Culture exchange Centre Africa-Uganda. am excited to be part of the live chat today