Rebecca Westbrook Toker

Host

Small is Beautiful Chapter 2

Dec 14, 2013·42 visitors

Aaron Meyers

Cohost

Stage· 503 messages

Dec 14, 2013

Returned Peace Corps Volunteer and Green Business Guru Aaron Meyers returns to dissect Chapter 2 of EF Schumacher's seminal work, Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered. This week, Peace and Permanence. Doesn't that sound nice?nnFree PDF version of Small is Beautiful at http://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/student/~pdarshan/SmallIsBeautifulSchumacher.pdf

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

Hi, all!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

How's everybody?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“knackered but damn happy! :-)”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Lovely!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Happy Friday, all!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“It's Friday night, what could be wrong?!”

Aaron Meyers · 2:01 AM

What up folk

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Whew!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

There you are!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

I was about to set sail; without you.

Aaron Meyers · 2:02 AM

Here I am!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

Superfluous semicolon.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“*waves to Aaron*... hey there!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“Hey Rebecca...”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

Hey, hey - the gang's all here!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

And Seth's on the way, too.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

Toker, not Hochmann.

Aaron Meyers · 2:03 AM

reminds me of the lonely island song

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

Oh, Lordy.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

We came here ot be smarties, not to start quoting Lonely Island.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

they are smart song writers!

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

anyhow

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

Um, I mean, for satirists.

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

before we get deep, is there anything on this topic or last weeks discussion anyone wants to talk about?

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

burning points people want to make?

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

I find it best to get that first

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

Dude, i am totally behind Ghandi's economic view of small, locally-sustained economies.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

But we can get there in a bit.

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

yes

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

i find chapter two to be more problem setting and myth busting by and large

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

we're still talking about whats wrong more than what could be right

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

Good description/synopsis.

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

but we are talking about other throwing the predominant economic mind set

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

so, getting through that by chapter two might have been ambitious of me

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

as a reader

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“its easier to find whats wrong with something than to find what is right”

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

too true lucy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

So, what's wrong, to begin

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

well the first thing they highlight is that peace would come through universal prosperity

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

is the common concept of the role of wealth in the economy.

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

its a very subtle and easily accepted point, that shumacher is proposing as a misconception

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

Yes. This was before "Trickle-Down" theory, but what Schumacher describes is still very much the common concept.

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

its more basic than trickle down

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

hey seth

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

lets try this on for size

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

we learn, very early on, that conflict comes from unmet needs

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

a man who needs to eat, will get food

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

a nation that needs oil will go to war

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

a man who wants for nothing, has to do nothing

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

that is common thought

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

Yes, and the first paragraph contains that gem of an assumption "Why should the rich man go to war?"

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

now here is where it gets sticky

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

As in, a wealthy and prosperous man would have nothing to fight for.

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

it is very like maslows theory

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“This is like Maslows Needs Theory...”

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

except at some point we begin to invent need

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

Yes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

because people will do anything for peace

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

and an unmet need is something a person will pay for

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

It's so cute to us these days that "our fathers' luxuries are our needs"

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

which, helps you meet your unmet needs

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

But if all needs are met, then no one is buying anything.

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

lol jane, you don't have to do that, just ask questions

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

So manufactured need drives the growth of the economy.

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

maslows theory is that we have different tiered needs

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

and will only go for the less tangible after we meet the tangible

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“now i gotta google maslows theory as i listen to YOLO by Lonely Island...you people are too smart for me”

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

so man will make sure he can eat before he starts looking for meeting his needs for art or life fufillment

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

looking up YOLO on youtube

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

So now I know what's on everyone's playlist this go-round...

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

this is eventually expanded to societies as a whole

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

which is why we see more art from England than from uganda

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

Which is why a society that promotes the arts is considered to be wealthy.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

Yes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“Is not the point of his argument that every class increases consumption together, rich and poor alike and so the reduction of resources or reduction of conflict will never resolve when we are pitted against each other for those resources?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

that's an interesting point seth

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Um, way to go straight to the point, there.

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

Heres how i like to look at it....

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

i think that a lack of peace still comes from unmet needs

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“art is considered a frivolity, but if you're weaving baskets that are utilitarian I guess that's Ok...Cave Paintings maybe are ok too”

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

but we're going about it backwards

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

you can fill unmet needs or you can reduce needs

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Jane, Schumacher points out that there is such a craving for creativity in work that man is dehumanized without it.

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

filling unmet needs puts you at the mercy of every new expanded need no matter how small, that someone pulls out of the ether

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

the ear was van gough

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

so if i have to make and buy stuff to constantly fill needs

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

my peace of mind becomes contingent on always acquiring more things

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“So the culture of consumption creates a cycle of unmet needs?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Yes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

which are taken from others

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

and since no negotiation is exactly even

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Now, keep in mind that Schumacher wrote this in 64.

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

every meeting of a need puts someone more at need

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“No wonder my family is so needy...”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

Oooh, that's so funny it hurts.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

He wrote this before the fuel crisis.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

He wrote this all before GOrdon Gecko and the 80s.

Aaron Meyers · 2:17 AM

sorry about that momentarily cut off

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

But he diagnosed our prevailing illnesses.

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

so, what we have is a widening economic gap

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

because people meet needs at different efficencies

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

some are just better at the game

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“that was theorised back in the 40s i believe.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

True. Around 45. but not widely received.

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

so, we have a system that incentivizes gain at the expense of others

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

Yes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

it is saying "greed is good"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Which throws the whole concept of peace through prosperity on its head.

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

i find many things wrong with this

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Because to be prosperous, you have to practice usury.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

So we can't ALL be prosperous.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

it's impossible.

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

yes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Because the bottom of the pyramid gets trampled on, as it were.

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

it means everyone will only be happy when there is no one left to take advantage of

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

and we don't have the resources for that

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

as a planet

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

let alone the morality

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

But how can you be happy if there's no one to take advantage of (in this equation)?

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

becky it only works if there is enough resources and production to give all people all the things

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:21 AM

Right.

Aaron Meyers · 2:21 AM

cant be done

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:21 AM

Especially not since needs are constantly maufactured.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:21 AM

And now, we have planned obsolescence. So all the things are only good for 6 months, anyway.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“@Aaron...that is a scary prospect right there...I'd use the word exploit, and that goes for human resources and natural resources”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:21 AM

EXACTLY, Jane!

Aaron Meyers · 2:21 AM

now lets remove the philosophy of stuff from the equation

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

Okay. No emotion.

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

i don't think its human nature at all

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

Only capital.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“So is all of this a result of human nature, or a reaction to a system imposed upon us?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

to say that only people who need stuff go to conflict is flawed in my mind

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

people sacrifice themselves even when they are happy with their own lives

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

theres an empathy in human nature that is not very reflective of this economic mindset

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

Ah.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

And Schumacher says this is relevant.

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

lets attack need from the other side

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

what if instead of filling demand with supply, you reduce demand

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

That to ignore that empathy, to ignore our connections to each other and the planet is to make ourselves ill.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“yea! altruism fucks up game theory all the time!”

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

its still almost adams smithian in nature, but it works

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

LOL

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Yes, but we can't empathize while our stomachs are empty, metaphorically speaking.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

sure we can Jordan, i know homeless people who feed their dogs first

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

Well, JB, then how come poor communities are generally better at caring for neighbors and are more generous?

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

because that's their companion

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

but this can extend to higher level needs just like lower

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

I hear what you're saying, it's just another of those "common wisdom" things that really isn't.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Touché.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

lets examine the macro level implications involved

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

we want to fill needs by acquiring stuff

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

so our measure of economic success is a measure of production

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

the GNP

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

I mean, yes, people do need to have food security to climb the ladder, but people do tend to help others in any circumstance.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

Including Nazi interment camps.

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

but lets also consider that the GNP accounts for ALL production

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

Okay, i'm back with you.

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

it includes bullets, its includes cell phones it includes, cigarrettes

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

so, in our current model we can honestly compare two countries and say

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

"these are about equal, but these guys made more bullets with which to kill each other"

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

ergo, they did better this year

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

Dude.

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

isn't that kind of messed up?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

That is ridiculous, when you put it that way.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

So...

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

so, instead we look at reducing need

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

or demand

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

economics is not getting closer to a hard science in my book...

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

don't measure the amount of pure food produced

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

measure nutrition provided

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

YES!

Aaron Meyers · 2:28 AM

all of a sudden you don't get economic credit for non nutritious foods

Aaron Meyers · 2:28 AM

or over eating

Aaron Meyers · 2:28 AM

you get credit for hungry people eating

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

Yes. I like this.

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

so in the micro scale, yourself

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

Me!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

Yes?

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

consider that you aren't buying crap you don't need

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

Ah!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

I work on that.

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

but the responsibility or goal, is to get effective use out of what you acquire

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

and if you cant, don't get it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

Oh - I see what you did there!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

You told us how we can beat the system RIGHT NOW!

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

if you are getting genuine use of your phone, up and above what you would otherwise have john, exactly

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

Forum is hilarious, BTW.

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

however, lets look at the apple model

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from John Baker

“i live ergo my phone?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

the latest ipad did basically nothing except make a lighter model

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

does a .2 ounces tangibly change your life

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

in any way shape or form?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

Except in the case of baggage charges, not so much.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“its perceived to.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

That.

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

and since when does .2 ounces in baggage really matter more than the cost of the tablet?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

That.

Aaron Meyers · 2:32 AM

the need for that much lighter of a device is literatly an invented need

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

Yes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

It's also a status thing,

Aaron Meyers · 2:32 AM

speaking of my own experiences, i recently did upgrade my tablet, i got an android machine with an integrated keyboard

Aaron Meyers · 2:32 AM

so i could give away my laptop

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

which is sort of on Maslow's heirarchy,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

but we've perverted the concept.

Aaron Meyers · 2:32 AM

so i reduced stuff

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

because there was a real difference

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

which effective use can be had

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

I am working on moving to reusable toilet paper.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from John Baker

“uh-oh maslow”

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

so now we're talking about buying stuff if it can be genuinely used

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

That was a nod to you, sir - looking forward to that Tawk!

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

which means that production will only happen if it fills a genuine need

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

Everyone ignored the toilet paper things.

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

yes becky i think we did

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“uh-oh Becky....”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“,,,isn't smarter brighter faster really the way of the world? you snooze you lose kinda thing?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

So we'll bring it back around.

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

modern marketing theory, which is my own original training, is sort of following this model

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:35 AM

Oh, do tell!

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

they teach to look at the genuine value, present it effectively and honestly, then it will appeal to the people who actually have use for it

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

buzz words are marketing circa the 80's

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

no more pet rocks

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:35 AM

And then there are the Axe Body spry commercials. they haven't gotten the memo...

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

yeah, some people don't catch up

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

but axe is also a joke

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

we all know it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

Except the peopel who use it...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“even axe knows it.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

now there is some work about squeezing the other end of need by the constant recycling (not downcycling of resources)

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

one of the better proponents of this is called cradle to cradle production

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

i think ive referred to it before

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

Great concept!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

It's not common, though.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

Give it to us again.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“how should we perceive that?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

the current firm that really pushes it has a materials database

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

for thousands of products

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

which allows them to have a ready made path to turn any product into the next product

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

when someone is done with it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

WOW!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“Who is this?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

so Nike for example, makes a shoe in which 50 or so parts of it can be used in other products nike makes

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

straight down to the rubber insole which is ground up and used to make basketball courts

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“That's cool!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“That's even cooler than the glass solar powered roads!”

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

the firm that does this, and advises nike is called McDonough bronguard

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

or some such spelling

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

here is a video on the topic

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

http://www.ted.com/talks/william_mcdonough_on_cradle_to_cradle_design.html

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

Nice!

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

as you guys know, i like to give homework

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

You mentioned something in a prior Tawk about companies being responsible for the waste parts of a product

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

that's done in germany

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

as a possible alternative model of production.

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

its called the REACH program

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

Aha.

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

it shaves at the problem but doesn't completely solve it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

So it changes the value system of production a little.

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

but it does give the right people an incentive

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

Germany at one time had a major problem with landfills

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

compared to how affluent they were, they are a relatively small country

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

geographically

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

so at one point their landfills were all full

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

and they were paying a ton of money to ship it to other countries

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“Michigan makes their landfills ski slopes...”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:42 AM

Repurposing

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

the way they solved this was to make the companies who produce and sell items responsible for the waste disposal and landfill costs

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

which, while what jane says is good, this is actually better

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

So there was an incentive to reduce packaging, etc., right?

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

because if a company pays for the stuff they make, they start to learn how to get you the same value while requiring less stuff

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

less packaging

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

lighter materials

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

they start recycling programs

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

they do things like cradle to cradle

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

cuz the end of life is no longer the consumers problem

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

its theirs

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:44 AM

Instead of the government basically subsidizing waste production by making it their problem.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:44 AM

ie, the government's

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

and if you think that's scary, consider for a second that there is no authoritative and complete data source for all landfills in the USA

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

No way!

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

thats how much we toss, we don't even know where it all is

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

its true, cant be found

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

I mean, i guess that's not all that surprising.

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

but think of the raw amounts that get thrown out

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

My family has a "family landfill" down in Texas. Great.

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

electronic crap in its own right has large amounts of heavy metal

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

and we don't know where it is

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

cuz weve been focusing on making a ton of it

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

and now ethically, we are inflicting those implications upon others

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:46 AM

I suddenly feel a little queasy.

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

usually those more in need, because the landfills don't tend to be in rich neighborhoods

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:46 AM

Right.

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

so now that ive scared everyone, Becky talk more about the hopeful philosophy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

Hahahaha!

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

(good cop bad cop)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

Okay, back to Schumacher,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

he takes on Keynesian economics

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

which is our predominant philosophy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

(It defends capitalism.materialism to the hilt)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

Keynes says we won't have peace until we're all prosperous

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

and prosperity comes through modern economic measures.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

We can't afford to let economic growth be slowed by moral and ethical concerns -

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

we will have plently of time for all that when we're all prosperous and peaceful in the future.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

So...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

how reasonable does that sound?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

I mean, comments?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

"We can't afford to be good"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Sounds completely absurd.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

Thanks, JB! Gold star!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

i'm still thinking about poptarts

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

And Rick gets a special star, too.

Aaron Meyers · 2:51 AM

poptarts are delicious

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

Anyway, Schumacher contrasts that with Ghandi

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

From here on out, I will not type Schumacher.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

I misspell it half the time, anyway.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

let's go with...EF?

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

Jordan i would say there is a need for poptarts but not perhaps on the scale or local they are currently filling

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

Okay, so EF brings us to Ghandi, who had economic theory, too,

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

there are legitimate and large spans of the US that have no access to fresh foods

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

and that are poor

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

and that need to eat breakfast

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

Which is true.

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

everyone else, learn to cook an egg for crying out loud

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

But Ghandi says we have to be good, essentially, because "perfect systems" won't arise to save us.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:54 AM

And I say, eat some real food and not a poptart, goddamn it!

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

becky we got 6 minutes left

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

maybe present the three requirements from ghandi

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:54 AM

And don't feed kids a government-subsidized poptart in class and then expect me to teach them!

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

of an economy, as provided by technology

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

the requirements are - technology cheap enough so that they are accessible to virtually everyone

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

Okay. Hold on. Rerouting thinking

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

suitable for small scale application

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

Yes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

and compatible with mans need for creativity

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“Also, Bill and Ted summarize it as well with "be exellent to each other."”

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

this is what technology in a non production based economy would have to look like

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

Our systems lack wisdom.

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

for example, think about where you work

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

Wisdom in economic terms is permanence.

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

if setting up your work cost more than you make you defacto are working at least somewhat for someone elses benefit

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

not your own

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

Sysytems that are not aiming toward permanence don't help humanity or really help the economy.

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

which is that same person taking advantage of other people economics we spoke of

Aaron Meyers · 2:57 AM

now lets consider the rise and fall of internet businesses

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:57 AM

Oh, wow.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:57 AM

I have no idea where you're going with that.

Aaron Meyers · 2:57 AM

they became accessible to a large part of the population, practically eveeryone

Aaron Meyers · 2:57 AM

or at least a large enough subset to be called useful

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

they are suitable for small scale application

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

that happened, yes.

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

because the internet has proven to be a market place where smaller niche businesses become practicle

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

and the lack of barriers of entry make it so that creativity is incentivized

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

Aha!

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

because people who cant pass those barriers put things online

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

So the internet is an acceptable technology for EF's economic vision.

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

the internet economy is in a sense a great application of what is being proposed

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

think about the burst of internet based companies in the late 90's

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

Nice!

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

weren't most of them not really selling anything?

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

or uncreative?

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

or just trying to propose things that aren't really a filled need?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

The 90s are an angsty haze.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

Tell me the answer.

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

people do rick, its an example, technology only needs to be accessible

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

not mandatory

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

people still like to touch and feel goods - the internet has it's place

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

So many jokes possible there, Rick...

Aaron Meyers · 3:01 AM

and now we are at time

Aaron Meyers · 3:01 AM

see you in a week for chapter 3

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

By, Aaron!

Aaron Meyers · 3:01 AM

in which now that jane has thrown down the challenge - I will somewhow relate to porn

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

Okay, if anyone else wants to hang out, stay around!

Aaron Meyers · 3:01 AM

(it makes my inner child giggle)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

OMG, I cannot forgive myself that typo.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

BYE, Aaron!

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

peace!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

Okay, so some things really stand out to me in Chapter 2.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

Materialism isn't really logically sound

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

because the premise of limitless growth is false.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

AND

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

our largest problems arise, not because of our mistakes, but because we have been so successful at creating technologies that will extract resources.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

materialism is based on materials

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

It should be, shouldn't it???

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

But I guess that's the fundamental flaw of economics:

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

natural capital is not treated as finite.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“seee ya aaron!!!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

higher quality materials cost more money

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“We're screwed.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“..@ Becky which is pbly why China is going to the moon now...to extract resources”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

Those thigns are all probably true.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

finer craftsman create finer goods - but we are losing our craftsmen

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

That's also true.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

And that's what EF is getting at.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

By destroying the human elements of productive work in favor of the industrial model of production, we are squandering human capital.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

I mean, he links it all back to the societal ills we're experiencing -

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

we're unfulfilled people, so we're not a cohesive society.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

We have all the struggles of poor and rich, so we're not cohesive.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“...when the robots take over, we'll all have more free time, no money but a lot of free time”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

hahahahah!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

So that's the utopian future?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

I mean, this is what we think is inevitable and GOOD?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

the Xerox of tomorrow will run the government of the future

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“@rick Not safely...”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

someone will inevitable make a copy of their butt and break the damn thing

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

Because we are really just monkeys. :D

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:10 AM

Okay, so something big to is that Keynes provided DIRECT justification for ignoring religious principles in the pursuit of economic prosperity.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:10 AM

He gave the excuses.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

Which explains the success of materialism and the ways that it can fit within Christian or other religious philosophy.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“Uh Oh, we're going into Pope Francis terriory now. He's the one who's going on and on and on about that selfsame thing Rebbeca”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

Right. If Francis gets to you, you should listen to that JESUS guy. I mean, GAWD. The camels and needles and stuff he's always going on about...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I don't like religion, but I really like Pope Francis. It's quite the conundrum.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

Snort!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

Yeah.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

Who? Keynes and John Smith?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“their child is... Dick Chaney?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

I mean Adam Smith.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

Wrong Smith. There are just so many of them...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

mr run a pipeline across afghanistan

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

Oh, now - why would a rich man go to war?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

I almost choked when I read that.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

I actually noted "Cheney?" right there.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

Why? Because there is power and profit in war for people who already have both.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“there are few people as souless.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“@rick that has been a real-politic dream since atleast the 70s. but he almost pushed it.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

The Real Politic people are...very Keynesian.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

"Foul is useful but fair is not"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Westbrook Toker

“its the same theory in a different garb.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:16 AM

Yes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:16 AM

So, this other thing that EF does in this chapter - after he makes several brilliant points, is bring in th econcept of wisdom

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:17 AM

as an essential part of economic considerations.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:17 AM

Not economics as currently practiced,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:17 AM

but an economics geared toward peace and permanence.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:17 AM

(Peace following from permanence in design)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:18 AM

(and predatory attitudes having no place in permanent designs)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I like the idea of wisdom as currency”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:18 AM

Me, too. :)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:19 AM

In EF's vision, Wisdom is in consideration for permanence.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:19 AM

Which is why he likes Ghandi's model.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“@Jordan...I like it too. Sadly, we'd all pbly end up with a lot of imaginary BITCOINS for currency though”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:20 AM

No, somebody stole all those already, Jane!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:20 AM

Here's more on Ghandi's model: http://caravan.squat.net/ICC-en/Krrs-en/ghandi-econ-en.htm

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:21 AM

And here's a video sequence on Keynesian economics from Khan University https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/macroeconomics/aggregate-supply-demand-topic/keynesian-thinking/v/keynesian-economics

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“..the links aren't working Rebecca”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:21 AM

I'll try again.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:22 AM

http://caravan.squat.net/ICC-en/Krrs-en/ghandi-econ-en.htm

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:22 AM

I don't know. It may be the site.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:22 AM

Copy and paste in the browser works, though.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:23 AM

Anyway, so the moral of chapter 2 is that, basically, you can't build peace on an economic foundation that is based on acts of violence and suppression

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:23 AM

of people, animals, resources.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:24 AM

You CAN try to reduce your perceived needs.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:24 AM

You can consume less.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:24 AM

You can consume conscientiously (as Aaron pointed out).

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I love it. I feel like the entire concept of Adobe housing fits in perfectly with this.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“@.Rebecca..ugg we are so screwed, but I sahll endeavor to persevere, keep a stiff upper lip...blah blah blah”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:25 AM

And if you can't, you can at least stop applauding the violent and usurous "progress" of the flawed economy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:26 AM

and applaud the efforts of people who are working to counter it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:26 AM

He says that we have to have faith.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:26 AM

No one here is religious,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:26 AM

so his faith in the God of Love and in the presence of the human soul

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Death to Columbus Day!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:27 AM

Ha!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:27 AM

His faith can maybe be interpreted as a faith in the presence of the soul and of Love itself.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“@Reb you don't have to worry about that. Thanks why I think we have a friend in this pope...he's really going out on his thinking limb and sticking his neck out...sadly, the Money people wanna chop it off though”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:27 AM

Oh, they do, Jane!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:28 AM

It's comical, and scary, the pushback that he's getting.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:28 AM

So, I mean, what I take away is the idea that...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:28 AM

maybe we don't just have to accept that "this is how the world is"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:29 AM

WE decide that.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:29 AM

We make the social contracts.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:29 AM

Just like we make the bombs.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:29 AM

And we can STOP making bombs.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:29 AM

And we can STOP fracking

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:29 AM

and ripping up mountains to run them through a pug mill to find 4 oz of heavy metals.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Friggin fracking”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:30 AM

Right.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:30 AM

But this is the critical juncture.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:30 AM

Not stopping the incessant march of capitalism and the devaluing of the human soul has led us here, staring into the face of our own possible self-destruction.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:31 AM

do pug mills make pugs?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Like puppy mills?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Lol”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:31 AM

LOL. No. Pug mills mash up dirt into uniform clay.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:31 AM

So it's sort of like a puppy mill, except not.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:32 AM

So, we can decide what kind of world we want to live in.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:32 AM

It is NOT necessary to use every bit of technology we come up with.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:32 AM

Some of it is damaging.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:32 AM

We can just say no.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:33 AM

And live smaller.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“or go meditate”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“uuuggg..again Reb...too much thinking hurts my head, Imma gonna need some mental floss soon”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:33 AM

And with that, I should draw it to a close.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:33 AM

Next week, we have The Role of Economics.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:33 AM

You guys have been awesome and hilarious, as always.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:33 AM

Once we get through Chapter 3,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:34 AM

we get to do Chapter 4, which is Buddhist Economics.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:34 AM

That's exciting, right???

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:34 AM

Anyway, have a lovely weekend, everyone.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“thanks REB...see ya next week, same bat time same bat channel”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:34 AM

I'll see you next week!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Nite friends”

Forum · 162

Forum· 162 comments

42 visitors

Tawkers AdminDec 10, 2013, 8:55 PM

Welcome to the Forum! To get involved, click "Who's Here" and then FOLLOW people.

Tawkers AdminDec 10, 2013, 8:55 PM

Once 25 people gather in the audience, a comment needs at least one LIKE to become visible to the two Hosts and anyone not following them. So LIKE the comments you want everyone to see!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 1:59 AM★ Spotlighted

Happy Friday, all!

Lucy DyerDec 14, 2013, 2:00 AM

yo yo yo!

Lucy DyerDec 14, 2013, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

knackered but damn happy! :-)

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

It's Friday night, what could be wrong?!

Lucy DyerDec 14, 2013, 2:01 AM

damnit,JB, you have a point...

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:02 AM★ Spotlighted

Hey Rebecca...

Lucy DyerDec 14, 2013, 2:02 AM★ Spotlighted

*waves to Aaron*... hey there!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:03 AM

Superfluous semicolon is quite poetic

Lucy DyerDec 14, 2013, 2:05 AM

i am all ears (or eyes in this case) and waiting to hear more :-)

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:05 AM

@Jane did I see you started reading the book?

Lucy DyerDec 14, 2013, 2:06 AM★ Spotlighted

its easier to find whats wrong with something than to find what is right

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:06 AM

Rick my brotha

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:08 AM

But some people aren't happy unless they have "more"

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:08 AM

Howdy roomies!

Lucy DyerDec 14, 2013, 2:08 AM

define "more",jordan?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:09 AM

More than most other people have

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:09 AM

@Jordan...Oh no you dedn't

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:09 AM

Seth!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:10 AM★ Spotlighted

This is like Maslows Needs Theory...

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:10 AM

Lay it on us Aaron!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:11 AM

I saw that @Rick I was fuming.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:11 AM★ Spotlighted

now i gotta google maslows theory as i listen to YOLO by Lonely Island...you people are too smart for me

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:11 AM

Lmao @Jane!

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:12 AM★ Spotlighted

Is not the point of his argument that every class increases consumption together, rich and poor alike and so the reduction of resources or reduction of conflict will never resolve when we are pitted against each other for those resources?

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:14 AM★ Spotlighted

art is considered a frivolity, but if you're weaving baskets that are utilitarian I guess that's Ok...Cave Paintings maybe are ok too

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:14 AM

Or at least cut off an ear

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:15 AM

Close enough. Both painters.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:15 AM

@ Rebecca..geez....he said that.... what a genius.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:16 AM★ Spotlighted

So the culture of consumption creates a cycle of unmet needs?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:16 AM★ Spotlighted

No wonder my family is so needy...

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:18 AM★ Spotlighted

that was theorised back in the 40s i believe.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:18 AM

The solution at the end of the papers were "in the future the future will solve this with magic!"

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:19 AM

It's PT Barnum's world, we're just living in it.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:20 AM★ Spotlighted

@Aaron...that is a scary prospect right there...I'd use the word exploit, and that goes for human resources and natural resources

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:21 AM★ Spotlighted

So is all of this a result of human nature, or a reaction to a system imposed upon us?

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:22 AM

There are some that theorise it can be achived using almost zero lost recycling and moving away from a material to data centric population, where consumption is ephemeral.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:22 AM

...it's human nature NOT to care about Stuff? and by stuff I mean material stuff?

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:23 AM★ Spotlighted

yea! altruism fucks up game theory all the time!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:23 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes, but we can't empathize while our stomachs are empty, metaphorically speaking.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:24 AM

Anybody watch the reality show Naked and afraid? It's interesting to see what naked people do without anything to their name.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:24 AM★ Spotlighted

Touché.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:26 AM

Bullets and cigarettes are bad. But I live my phone.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:27 AM

@jordan: i LIVE my phone... te he.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:28 AM

@Seth, I know. Stupid auto correct.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:28 AM

no, its an accidental truism.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:29 AM

Stupid universe.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:29 AM

How is this measured Aaron, this type of success?

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 2:29 AM★ Spotlighted

i live ergo my phone?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:30 AM

Lol @John!

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:30 AM

Hey John! dont we all?

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 2:31 AM

@seth/jb im late to the party but thank god for the permanence of tawks

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:31 AM★ Spotlighted

its perceived to.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:32 AM

when you pick up that new thing you notice the weight, you heard on the radio and internet, its different, the reviewers perceptions are mirrored in yours and " by god! yes! i feel new! shiny! smarter!"

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 2:33 AM★ Spotlighted

uh-oh maslow

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:33 AM

I know Jon! I brought it up earlier! We Tawk about it next week!

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:33 AM★ Spotlighted

,,,isn't smarter brighter faster really the way of the world? you snooze you lose kinda thing?

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:34 AM★ Spotlighted

uh-oh Becky....

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:34 AM

Yes Becca. I was hoping that was a joke!

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:35 AM

@Rebecca...now there's a concept...recycle that S**T, put it throught the paper shredder and then take that confeeti mass of paper and wipe...presto chango

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:35 AM

Like Jordan..smarter brighter faster

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:36 AM

@Jane I've made this joke before, but Hollywood has been recycling shit for years...

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:36 AM★ Spotlighted

even axe knows it.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:37 AM★ Spotlighted

how should we perceive that?

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:38 AM★ Spotlighted

Who is this?

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:38 AM

.. who... WHAT company is this?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:38 AM★ Spotlighted

That's cool!

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:39 AM

@rick Because of lack of demand?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:39 AM★ Spotlighted

That's even cooler than the glass solar powered roads!

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:39 AM

..is recycling like re-runs? They jsut wait long enough so the next generation of kids has no idea that that new movie is really an old movie, re-done for today...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:40 AM

@Rick I'm really sorry about the chocolate pop tarts. That's rough, man.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:40 AM

@rick- uh, isnt that what creates demand? a un fufilled want? then it is made and fufilled

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:41 AM

I've walked on trails made of recycled rubber tire material, and playgrounds too...kinda cushiony and comfy really

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:42 AM

@jane yup its a pretty awesome idea, though they are pretty buoyant.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:42 AM★ Spotlighted

Michigan makes their landfills ski slopes...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:43 AM

With the rising sea levels, we may have to build entire islands of that stuff, Jane

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:45 AM

@jordan Bottle island!!! http://dornob.com/recycled-paradise-amazing-man-made-floating-island/

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:46 AM

No way!

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:46 AM

...ohhhhh..and lsiten to Lonely Island on our island...what fun we'll have

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:46 AM

Lol!

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 2:46 AM

theres an island of trash, in think, in the pacific

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:47 AM

@Jane Becky actually laughed out loud.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:47 AM

@john its more like a single layer of crap, you cant walk on it or anything. Yet.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:47 AM

..kewl

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:49 AM

@jane your link to your webpage in your info takes me here http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://chefvinnieskitchenheat.blogspot.com/&usg=AFQjCNGp1MiPMmcznNTpHioqW6ITopiT_w

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:49 AM

..thanks

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:50 AM★ Spotlighted

Sounds completely absurd.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:50 AM

oh, hmm...wrong link then...

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:50 AM

here's the real link, that actually is another one of my blogs

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:51 AM

Nice, Rick!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:51 AM

Sure pop tarts are delicious. But do we NEED them?

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:51 AM

Here's the real link

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:51 AM

http://cheyannescampsite.blogspot.com/

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 2:52 AM

it turns the state into a 'company town' by means of capital and culture

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 2:52 AM

a capital and culture dominated and constructed by the company

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:52 AM

and this blog is also mine..the one I'm most proud of because it's my garden

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:52 AM

http://toweedornottoweedthatisthegarden.blogspot.com/

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:53 AM

@aaron that is not crap

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:53 AM

@rick I see that snide smile rick.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:54 AM

@beck Wow, that is awesome.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:54 AM

Ghandi kicks ass! (Irony intended)

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 2:54 AM★ Spotlighted

Also, Bill and Ted summarize it as well with "be exellent to each other."

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 2:55 AM

@Seth San Dimas High School Football Rules!!!

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 2:55 AM

@jb o'doyle rules

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:57 AM

..bubbles bubbles bubbles for all...

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 2:58 AM

@rick...that is funny stuff...Barbara Striesand is flowing through my head right now

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:00 AM

@ Rick...that's why online porn is popular I guess..people can touch themselves

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:01 AM

Great Tawk!

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:01 AM

hehehhehehehehe...hey I don't make the rules, I jsut report them

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:02 AM

I thought it was like the jingle By Mennen

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:02 AM

By Aaron

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 3:03 AM

therein lies the need for a public network infrastructure. whatever the new web will be is in peril

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:03 AM

till next week, chapter 3

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:03 AM

the ongoing saga continue

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:05 AM★ Spotlighted

seee ya aaron!!!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:05 AM★ Spotlighted

We're screwed.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:05 AM★ Spotlighted

..@ Becky which is pbly why China is going to the moon now...to extract resources

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:05 AM

Lol

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:06 AM

not much on the moon. it may be used as a launch pad for exploration of asteroids though.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:06 AM

Like Jesus worked with wood...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:07 AM

Space prison? I smell a Vin Diesel movie.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:07 AM★ Spotlighted

...when the robots take over, we'll all have more free time, no money but a lot of free time

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

@rick Not safely...

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:09 AM

Lol

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:09 AM

...@rebecca, I cringe at the thought actually. That movie with Will Smith and the Robots comes to mind

John BakerDec 14, 2013, 3:10 AM

@jane asimovs i, robot is actually very 'human'

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:11 AM

Was Keynes sleeping with Ayn Rand to make, like, the Worst Couple ever?

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Uh Oh, we're going into Pope Francis terriory now. He's the one who's going on and on and on about that selfsame thing Rebbeca

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:11 AM★ Spotlighted

I don't like religion, but I really like Pope Francis. It's quite the conundrum.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:12 AM★ Spotlighted

their child is... Dick Chaney?

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:13 AM

...he seems to be breaking the mold alittle bit...disguises himself and goes out to the homeless people, told that german priest to get out of his german mansion etc

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:14 AM★ Spotlighted

@rick that has been a real-politic dream since atleast the 70s. but he almost pushed it.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:14 AM★ Spotlighted

there are few people as souless.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:15 AM★ Spotlighted

its the same theory in a different garb.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:15 AM

...I like Richard Wolff's ideas...very communal

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:16 AM

Who?

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:16 AM

Hey Rick, did you design help build all those things on your echotecture site?

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:16 AM

http://rdwolff.com/

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:16 AM

design or help

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:17 AM★ Spotlighted

I like the idea of wisdom as currency

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:18 AM

That carton of milk will cost you 50 insights, please.

Seth Westbrook TokerDec 14, 2013, 3:19 AM

that is amazing.

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:19 AM★ Spotlighted

@Jordan...I like it too. Sadly, we'd all pbly end up with a lot of imaginary BITCOINS for currency though

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:21 AM★ Spotlighted

..the links aren't working Rebecca

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:22 AM

ok...I'll copy and paste

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:24 AM★ Spotlighted

@.Rebecca..ugg we are so screwed, but I sahll endeavor to persevere, keep a stiff upper lip...blah blah blah

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:25 AM★ Spotlighted

I love it. I feel like the entire concept of Adobe housing fits in perfectly with this.

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:25 AM

@jane I'm with ya, sister!

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:26 AM★ Spotlighted

Death to Columbus Day!

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:27 AM★ Spotlighted

@Reb you don't have to worry about that. Thanks why I think we have a friend in this pope...he's really going out on his thinking limb and sticking his neck out...sadly, the Money people wanna chop it off though

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:28 AM

...absolutely

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:29 AM

Jon Stewart said it best.."YOU"RE GOING AFTER THE POPE"..he was talking to .that Varney guy from the $$$$ channel

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:29 AM★ Spotlighted

Friggin fracking

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:30 AM★ Spotlighted

Lol

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:30 AM★ Spotlighted

Like puppy mills?

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:31 AM

Uniforms are made of clay!

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:31 AM★ Spotlighted

uuuggg..again Reb...too much thinking hurts my head, Imma gonna need some mental floss soon

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:32 AM★ Spotlighted

or go meditate

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:34 AM★ Spotlighted

thanks REB...see ya next week, same bat time same bat channel

Jordan BirnbaumDec 14, 2013, 3:34 AM★ Spotlighted

Nite friends

Jane SmithDec 14, 2013, 3:35 AM

nah...no booze Rick, I don't like it, it don't like me..simple