Rebecca Westbrook Toker

Host

Small is Beautiful Chapter 3

Jan 11, 2014·36 visitors

Aaron Meyers

Cohost

Stage· 390 messages

Jan 11, 2014

Returned Peace Corps Volunteer and Green Business Guru Aaron Meyers returns to dissect Chapter 3 of EF Schumacher's seminal work, Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered. This week, The Role of Economics. We've established that economics is not a hard science - should it govern public policy? What SHOULD it do?nnFree PDF version of Small is Beautiful at http://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/student/~pdarshan/SmallIsBeautifulSchumacher.pdf

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 8:05 PM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I've missed these!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

Good evening!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

Hello!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

How is everyone!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that I am featured in Aaron's profile pic.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

I'm the one being strangled.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

or, bust ing a Miley.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

I was twerking before it was cool?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Let me go check out what's up with Aaron.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

Lalala...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

I was going to have potato chips and beer while I did this Tawk, but I've eaten all the chips. So I'm left with quite a nice craft beer.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Good evening everyone”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

Hey, JB. Howzit?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

I'm calling.

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

so Becky warming up crowd?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

There he is!

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

there I am!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

hey, man! How's it been!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Friday evening. What could be better?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

good good

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

Chips and beer.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

I recommend it.

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

So I see some familiar faces in the crowd

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

Out of a wine glass no less. Keeping it classy.

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

including the fake NSA

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

I hear that guy is fake everywhere

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

Hahahahaha! yep. All our smarty-pants (es?) are here.

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

but, that raises a good point, as a government employee I do have to say my usual disclaimer

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“hi! glad I made it! :)”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

Hey, rach!

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

any opinion or statement of fact is merely my own opinion and my own understanding of a fact, not the EPA's

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

Oooh, how's that for nuance?

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

so Beck, you wanna dive right in?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

Sure. I'll save the jokes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

So, we're talking about the ROLE of economics.

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

before we get too much further, since we do have some familiar faces

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

and since it has been awhile

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

does anyone have any burning topics from previous chapters

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

or things they've thought about since then?

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

not that I mind interrupting, I don't, but everyone who wants the stage should get the stage

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

"How then could peace be built on a foundation of reckless science and violent technology"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

How's that?

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

Rachel the quick summary of the previous two would more or less be as follows

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

the system is broken

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“i think i've missed the other two can you give me a quick overview? :)”

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

current economics rewards production, not reduction of need created by production

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

Eonomocs is not a hard science.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

but is treated as such.

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

yes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

Sigh. Economics, not whatever i typed there.

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

we are, but there are always examples of hope out there

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

im hoping myself to see some in later chapters

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

Oh oh!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

I heard a report the other day that mentioned cradle to cradle

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

if I had to sum up this chapter I would say most of it is about the difference between qualitative and quantitative economics

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

really?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

being applied to pharaceuticals!

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

what they say?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

There are some small towns who are drafting legistlation to make pharma companies responsible for disposal of outdated product!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

And they mentioned cradle-to-cradle methodology.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

That's cool, huh?

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

cradle to cradle for those who don't know, is the idea that everything in your product should be a component of another product that you could make upon reclaiming it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

Of course, there's the usual industry push-back - too expensive, will be passed to the consumer, etc.

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

it is an idea by McDonough bronguard (sp?)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

But the consumer is already paying via tax dollars.

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

theres a decent ted talk on it if you search their site

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

it is apparently very expensive to get rid of pharamaceuticals safely.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Anyway, i love the idea - in the broader sense, not just pharmaceuticals.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

It changes the game.

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

wildly so

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Substantially.

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

there are a few companies already practicing it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Which?

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

McDonough bronguard is after all a very large consulting group

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

Nike I know

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

a few others

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

sorry late, had to order dinner

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

Hey, Fake. You've been mentioned. ;D

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

they were contracted out by the government of china to design an entire city

Aaron Meyers · 2:15 AM

under the same principle

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

WOW!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

So..is this city...real?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Like, running and functioning?

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

its in design

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

cities take time

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I wonder whatever happened to Rick McCandless.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

NSA got him.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

It's cool, though.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Is there open-source material on it?

Aaron Meyers · 2:17 AM

McDonough bronguard?

Aaron Meyers · 2:17 AM

no, that's one of their main criticisms

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

The city.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

But prob not.

Aaron Meyers · 2:17 AM

they gotta make money somehow

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

Yeah.

Aaron Meyers · 2:17 AM

but the design principles are solid and others are following it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

But some people just put their stuff out if they want it to spread.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

Can you talk about specific principles?

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

well as I said the primary principle is reuse

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

but its reuse now downuse

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

because it has to be reusable in some way in which you are not downcycling it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Like the opposite of upcycle?

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

or burning more energy in the retrofit and reclaiming than it would take to make something new

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

Oh - so it is like upcycle.

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

something that can do this, they call a technical input

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

its more than upcycle

Aaron Meyers · 2:20 AM

its upcycling with a full modeling of the reclaiming and remanufacturing to make sure its truly upcycled

Aaron Meyers · 2:21 AM

regular "upcycling" just means that's recycling doesn't degrade the material

Aaron Meyers · 2:21 AM

like aluminum, you can recycle it forever

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

plastic on the other hand always recycles to a cheaper form of plastic

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

Oh.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

So, it's a nature model.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

Like water.

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

yes

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

the book itself

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

cradle to cradle

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

that they publish and promote

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

Nice.

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

is a plastic like weave, that has an easy process that will remove the ink

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

and make new books

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

making it a technical input

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

prison art with can tops and chip bags is a thing

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

Also a technical input?

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

becky nows about chip bag things

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

Hahahahaha!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

I still have me earrings...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

yes, because the book once reclaimed is the next book

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

just by removing and reapplying inc

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

ink

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

That's a really cool concept.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

Like, hella cool.

Aaron Meyers · 2:24 AM

which is one of mcdonoughs primary complaints

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

Why don't they make more things like that?

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

when you think about it, and model the full process

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

like the damned chip bags????

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

there is no way to use a tree, to make anything paper basedd

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

and not be downcycling

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

McDonough wrote a book?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

which one should I read

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

because nothing you make from the tree is as essential to manufacturing more tree based products, as a tree itself

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

That's true. it takes SO MUCH WATER to recycle paper.

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

its called cradle to cradle

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

so, on to chapter 3

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

Yes!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

any product is made up of other products

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

I don't know as much about leather nsa

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

Fake NSA kind of hit it on the head.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

Aaron, talk about leather

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

Not about the leather.

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

i know the recent mcdonalds promise to move to sustainable beef though is going to be good for leather

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

I know sausage plants make a lot of leather.

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

a lot of leather is from south American cattle farms that are run with some of the most horrendous practices

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

and the more tracable leather is, the more those people get caught

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

Or Oklahoma sausage plants that employ Central American workers and don't have the best practices.

Aaron Meyers · 2:28 AM

nike had to do a similar intiative a few years ago to make sure they didn't have similar problems

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

it's tough sourcing holistic leather

Aaron Meyers · 2:28 AM

these are worse than anything you're likely to find in Oklahoma becky

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

True enough, from both of you.

Aaron Meyers · 2:28 AM

they were clear cutting rainforest, displacing or indenturing natives

Aaron Meyers · 2:28 AM

to work cattle operations

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

Yeah. Pretty UN-Bueno.

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

then putting leather products into large resellers who asked no questionas

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

then could get it to big users

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

Users don't ask many questions.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

i mean, how many sustainable baseballs have you seen marketed?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

Footballs?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

Sneakers?

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

that's a good question

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“It's very hard to be a consumer in this world and NOT support a practice you find abhorrent.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

like i said, nike, their considered line

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“blood diamonds anyone?,,buyers don't care...it's a sign of love”

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

i just know a lot about them cuz i had to consult on the topic getting my mba

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

sorry to hit the same hourse

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

im actually working on my own engagement ring jane

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

making our own so we know its legal

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:30 AM

It's great. i love tapping into random knowledge - stuff you wouldn't normally think to ask.

Aaron Meyers · 2:30 AM

and moral

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

Because you're awesome! <3

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

how long have you been working on it?

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

just a couple weeks so far

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

taking classes from scratch

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

Alright! Chapter 3!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

So..."economics"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

it has cast it's pall over most things in modern society.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

Describing somethign as "economic" or uneconomic"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

determines it's prudence, its right to EXIST or be done.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

which is weird, since we've previously determined that economics isn't really a very reliable science.

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

well its reliable within certain limited conditions

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

It seems that calling something "uneconomic" can justify a lot of bad behavior.

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

its just not the silver bullet of social science tools people make it out to be

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

Yes. Purely on statistical grounds, economics can be reliable.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

In terms of metadata, in telling what happened, it's reliable.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:35 AM

But in terms of predicting future behaviors....

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:35 AM

there's this billboard right outside Chattanooga that proclaims economic predictions to be "mostly shovelready"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:35 AM

economics is only a science as long as capitalism exists

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

well any systems engineer who tells you they can build a metadata driven model for the purpose of predicting the future is selling something

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

Exactly!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

On both counts!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“anybody hear Chomsky on Huff Psot say say Capitalism is Savagery the other day?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

No - but YES!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

And Schumacher gets to the same in Chapter 3.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:36 AM

He calls economics a religion.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

And enumerates its commandments.

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

so we arrive at the question what does it mean to be

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

"uneconomic"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I think the meaning of the words "economics" and "capitalism" have been so manipulated as to be virtually indecipherable.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

most people would understand that to mean not profitablew

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

They mean what the hearere thinks they mean.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

I agree - because economics is concerned maily with profit.

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

but something uneconomic cant be by default not worth doing

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Uneconomic is not profitable.

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

what are some of the things we do that are not profitable but worth it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Art

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Breastfeeding

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

Becky has a great example, that doesn't like hot chocolate

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Exercise

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

exercise is profitable, in a wide sense

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

you having a child, is not

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

Hahahahaha.

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

its a money hole

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

yeah, raising your 2-year-old.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

Staying home with a kid when i have a degree is even less profitable.

Aaron Meyers · 2:39 AM

no, altruism can be incredibly profitable

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

in fact i find some of the best models of altruism are profit based models

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

That's very true.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

And I have seen some of the BEST altruism be profitable in this day and age.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

Oh wait - you just said that!

Aaron Meyers · 2:40 AM

because if you're building something genuinely of use to those who need it, profit is the surest way to make sure you respond to how those in need adapt and change over time

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

that's where we get Tom's shoes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Any examples?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

a lot of design changes in the cell phone market

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

to make them more rugged

Aaron Meyers · 2:41 AM

a few companies have adjust the sizes of their shampoo bottles to fit price points of the poor

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

There are also consulting firms that work to help nonprofits make money. They increase revenues exponentially.

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

that's why a lot of companies, even if they don't supply to hotels, still make tiny bottles

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:42 AM

But they come under heavy media fire as "overhead costs."

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

well high overhead isn't necessarily a bad thing

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

people make that mistake all the time

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:42 AM

Exactly.

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

when you are deciding where to donate money, people always ask, how much money is going to the people

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

If you're beinging in 4X the emount of revenue but spending aportion of that on the contractor, you still make more money.

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

how much is salary

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

wrong question

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“High overhead usually means "employing lots of people."”

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

what you should be asking is, how much result are you buying with your dollar

Aaron Meyers · 2:43 AM

if non profit a, pays 40% of your dollar in salary

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

and non profit B pays 2%

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:44 AM

And, from the perspective of someone who worked in the third world, having that many more white collar workers IS helpful.

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

but non profit A, does work 100 times more efficiently

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

then A is your better investment

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:44 AM

(to answer JB's comment)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

no shame in drunk typing

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“i quit typing...i type too fasssst and don't edit and I appear drunk...I'm done”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

It's Friday. We don't judge at Tawkers! ;D

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

And geez - look at my typos! Or don't.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

Please don't.

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

now, there have been some economic studies since that have indicated that pure economic pursuit isn't necessarily a good ting

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

and it has shown them in interesting ways

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:46 AM

Oooh, do tell!

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

one of the results of the last recession were several published sources that showed a negative impact upon the economy if too much of the economy is from financial products

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

and not the actual making of stuff

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

Further, Schumacher notes that the measure of the economy is only of stuff taht is made or that makes money

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

this is now an emerging economic indicator

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

not the intangibles or the provided goods.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

What is?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:48 AM

Percentage of economy that is tangible goods?

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

the percent of the economy that is in financial products

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

money made from trades bonds etc

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

and not actual stuff

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

"Monopoly money'

Aaron Meyers · 2:49 AM

when you look at our growth in gnp jane usually the one thing we've proven to make is new companies

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

LOL

Aaron Meyers · 2:50 AM

and we make them at a growth rate and with a growth rate, that is bigger than our decreases in production

Aaron Meyers · 2:50 AM

or outsourcing to other countries

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

That's absurd!

Aaron Meyers · 2:50 AM

which is where a lot of gnp growth comes from

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

it's like....a Woody Allen film! So funny it hurts!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Our society is a giant shell game.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

So...Scumacher points out that the measure of economics

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

like GNP

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

serves to excuse the individual from responsibility

Aaron Meyers · 2:51 AM

now if we start asking ourselves, what does this buy us, and not pursuing something for profit though, we run into some hard decisions

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

He's expected to be a bargain-hunter, whether as a consumer or a producer.

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

one example in the book i do not like is the putting of a man on the moon

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

the book says we did it because the means are available

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

and not because of a human need

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

I do like that example, though.

Aaron Meyers · 2:52 AM

in this one example i think it misses the mark

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

i think there was an actual need to put a man on the moon

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

I think we need to tend to our chickens here on earth - or, rather, take care of the first planet.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

I can see the argument both ways.

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

putting a man on the moon does that

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

let me make my case

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

Proceed. ;)

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

the man on the moon was the result of a public private partnership

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

government and industry working together

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

historically, the government sets a big goal, and they either set up the infrastructure to invent a thing

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

or invent a thing and spread it through industry

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

this is how big advancements in society happen

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

the government sets a goal like a man on the moon, because it drives people to do big things

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

and when the government, usually the us government is behind it, they don't try to own the solution

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

which means everyone gets a piece much sooner

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

all the technologies that come from space

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

the internet

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

modern medicine

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

mapping the genome and medical advances based upon it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“I wish they would set the goal: handle climate change.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

auto mobile travel

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

all private/public partnerships

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Not to mention the film Gravity.”

Aaron Meyers · 2:57 AM

because a government guy and an industry guy both agreed on doing something big

Aaron Meyers · 2:57 AM

so i think the example is faulty

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:57 AM

I see your point, but I also see Schumacher's.

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

we should be worried more about climate adaption than actually turning back change

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

Indeed, i love the arts and sciences. I think they are the most beautiful pursuits of mankind. But in terms of need...well, we need to take care of our responsibilites.

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

but that's an argument for another day

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

and a tawk of a whole different kind

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

If we had been as focused on avoiding climate ctastrophe as putting a man on the moon, maybe we wouldn't be needing to adapt so much.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

I don't trust the mail system on earth let alone in space

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“becky? are responsibilites basic human needs?”

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

Becky to do that we would have had to turn back the clock ages ago

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

and started working on this around WW2

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

from the very acknowledgement of climate change as a thing, its been known that its more or less unavoidable, we

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

are just arguing to dull the edge a bit

Aaron Meyers · 3:00 AM

make it more livable

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

Responsibilites are what we need to attend to. If we fulfill our needs responsibly, we don't have giant catastropes to clean up later. if we practice stewardship in, say eating, we have clean, healthy food AND a clean, healthy environment.

Aaron Meyers · 3:01 AM

give me a couple of months and an open schedule, i'll talk to some people about running a climate change simulation here

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

BUT AARON - if we had admitted it in the 60s, we could have done so much more to make it better NOW!!!!!!

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

right now the facts are known to the point where we can actually assign people the roles of united nations members, give them a set of policy options

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

and ill tell you how soon we're effed

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“The hippies were right about everything”

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

jane i have that on a t-shirt :P

Aaron Meyers · 3:03 AM

"the hippies were right"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

Well, weed is back in vogue...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

I want that t-shirt!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

Okay,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

so...

Aaron Meyers · 3:03 AM

anyhow, it is now 10:03

Aaron Meyers · 3:03 AM

and my brain needs to go off

Aaron Meyers · 3:03 AM

see you all hear next week

Aaron Meyers · 3:03 AM

tell your friends!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

;)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

Thansk for being here, Aaron!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

I have missed you!

Aaron Meyers · 3:04 AM

post on the facebook event site if you have topics you want to bring up

Aaron Meyers · 3:04 AM

miss you too beckers!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

NO ONE ELSE CAN CALL ME THAT!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

EVER.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jane Smith

“see ya, loved this tawk as per usual”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jordan Birnbaum

“Great Tawk!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

Nope, Jane.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

Nope.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

Aaron is the only person who can get away with that.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

ONLY.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

Okay...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

So...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

if you want to hang around and indulge me,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:06 AM

Schumacher makes some incredible points

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:07 AM

about the market being shallow and superficial, but thereby granting creedence to the notions of individualism and irresponsibility.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:08 AM

We buy things, we sell things, and, hey, it's not our problem - we wanted it and we had to make the best deal.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

We have "Consumerism Commandments" - Behave Economically, or, as a consumer, Enjoy Yourself (i.e., BUY).

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

It's gross and cultish.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:09 AM

All qualitiative distinctions are suppressed.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:10 AM

Ther eis only talk of quantity - of profit.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

And when good enter the market, they are all calculated as equivalent - only in terms of profit, with no consideration given to WHAT THEY ARE.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

Primary goods are counted the same as secondary goods

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

but all primary goods are gifts from the environment

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:11 AM

and all secondary goods are constructed from those.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

Further,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

Primary goods are either renewable or non-renewable, which should drastically change their relative values (but doesn't)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:12 AM

and all secondary goods are either manufactures or services.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

So we have 4 distinct categories of goods

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

and they are all measured in terms of profit

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:13 AM

which is absurd.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

"An expansion of man's abilit yto bring forth secondary products is useless unless preceeded by an expansion of his ability to win primary products from the earth"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:14 AM

"Man is not a producer, but only a converter."

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

Therefore, shortages.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

This was written almost half a century ago.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:15 AM

We've had this info and still we're in the mess we're in today - polar vortex and all.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:16 AM

What I'm interested in is what this means for us.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:17 AM

I mean, here, we have the absurdities in the system dissected.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:17 AM

So how do we do better?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:17 AM

How can we live so that sports stars aren't paid a bajillion dollars and teacher barely enough to get by and buy their own classroom supplies?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:18 AM

How can economics become a reliable measure instead of laughable?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:18 AM

That's what we'll talk about next week, with BUDDHIST ECONOMICS!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:18 AM

I'll see you all then!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:18 AM

Have a wonderful weekend!

Forum · 63

Forum· 63 comments

36 visitors

Tawkers AdminJan 9, 2014, 2:45 AM

Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!

Jordan BirnbaumJan 9, 2014, 5:35 PM★ Spotlighted

I've missed these!

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Good evening everyone

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:04 AM★ Spotlighted

Friday evening. What could be better?

Rachel McDonnellJan 11, 2014, 2:06 AM★ Spotlighted

hi! glad I made it! :)

Rachel McDonnellJan 11, 2014, 2:09 AM★ Spotlighted

i think i've missed the other two can you give me a quick overview? :)

Rachel McDonnellJan 11, 2014, 2:11 AM

thanks! :) yes I agree we are following a failing/failed system

Rachel McDonnellJan 11, 2014, 2:11 AM

Eonomics sounds interesting too Rebecca ;)

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:16 AM★ Spotlighted

I wonder whatever happened to Rick McCandless.

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:20 AM

Especially songs...

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:21 AM

Bottle cap art is on he upswing.

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:23 AM

You been checking out the prison art galleries in your neighborhood?

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:24 AM

becky sounded like a pirate right there with ME earrings...arrrghhh matey

Rachel McDonnellJan 11, 2014, 2:26 AM

that's a really cool idea! love it! :)

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:26 AM

everything is a mashup and we steal from other artists to make it.

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:29 AM★ Spotlighted

It's very hard to be a consumer in this world and NOT support a practice you find abhorrent.

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:29 AM★ Spotlighted

blood diamonds anyone?,,buyers don't care...it's a sign of love

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:31 AM

wow....waht a thought...waht an action..kewl

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:31 AM

Why are diamonds like hot dogs? You can only enjoy them if you have no idea how they got to you.

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:32 AM

..wow....impressive...lucky person whoever gets it

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:33 AM

..hot dogs and diamonds...hmmm I see a baseball field

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:33 AM

Lol Jane

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:34 AM

...if you build it they will come

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:36 AM★ Spotlighted

anybody hear Chomsky on Huff Psot say say Capitalism is Savagery the other day?

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:37 AM★ Spotlighted

I think the meaning of the words "economics" and "capitalism" have been so manipulated as to be virtually indecipherable.

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:37 AM

...true that jordan

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:39 AM

LOVE!

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:39 AM

..so altruism in money/profitability is uneconomic?

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:40 AM

....but jsut think of the quality time (is time money) you're earing wiht him..waht a cutey bTW...

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:40 AM★ Spotlighted

Any examples?

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:42 AM

Whatever happened to Fake NSA?

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:43 AM★ Spotlighted

High overhead usually means "employing lots of people."

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:43 AM★ Spotlighted

i quit typing...i type too fasssst and don't edit and I appear drunk...I'm done

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:43 AM

But I'm not

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:44 AM

do i detect an air of sarcasm in your voice Rick

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:44 AM

Jane, the most talented are always unnecessarily hard on themselves...

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:45 AM

I hate appearing air headed and stooopid

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:45 AM

Jane, you appear the exact opposite of that!

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:46 AM

although I may look like it, which you'll never know if I'm blonde or not or if the curtains match the carpet

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:48 AM

..we don't make anything anymore...and if we do, it's virtual reality and non materilaitic...how can you have a GNP if one does not exist.This includes financial services

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:50 AM★ Spotlighted

Our society is a giant shell game.

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:51 AM

GNP: Greatly negotiated principles.

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:52 AM

GNP is GNIP GNOP

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:53 AM

what are the chinese doing there? why hasn't anyone planted a flag there?

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:55 AM★ Spotlighted

I wish they would set the goal: handle climate change.

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:56 AM★ Spotlighted

Not to mention the film Gravity.

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:57 AM

we've already messed this planet up jordan, time to search for other moons and planets

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 2:58 AM

I wonder how people will establish personal ownership of land on Mars.

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:58 AM

I adored the movie Gravity....i have a whole new perspective on what it might be like out there in the future

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 2:59 AM★ Spotlighted

becky? are responsibilites basic human needs?

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 3:00 AM

Al Gore was screaming about the environment in 1990 and was mocked for it.

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 3:01 AM

...yeppers Jordan....he might as well have been Copernicus or Galileo fighting the Church about the Earth revolving around the Sun

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 3:02 AM

Never thought of it like that, but you're exactly right Jane

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 3:02 AM★ Spotlighted

The hippies were right about everything

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 3:03 AM

..lol Rebecca

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 3:03 AM

...we've come a long way baby

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 3:04 AM★ Spotlighted

see ya, loved this tawk as per usual

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 3:04 AM★ Spotlighted

Great Tawk!

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 3:04 AM

haha...now we know BECKERS

Jane SmithJan 11, 2014, 3:06 AM

Jordan, do you show up at EVERY talk because you invented this place, tawkers?

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 3:07 AM

Nope. I'm helping develop the company, but I show up because I love the feeling of community with smart and good people. Mushy, huh?

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 3:16 AM

Lol rebecca!

Jordan BirnbaumJan 11, 2014, 3:18 AM

Nite!