RT

Small is Beautiful Chapter 5

Jan 27, 2014

AM
Stage· 292 messages
Jan 27, 2014

Returned Peace Corps Volunteer and Green Business Guru Aaron Meyers returns to dissect Chapter 5 of EF Schumacher's seminal work, Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered. This week, A Question of Size. one of Schumacher's key principles is economics on a "human scale." So what is the right size for people? Why does that matter?nnFree PDF version of Small is Beautiful at http://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/student/~pdarshan/SmallIsBeautifulSchumacher.pdf

RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Tawkers Admin

“Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!”

RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

sparkle fingers
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

Indeed, Rick?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

How's everyone tonight?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

hi Rebecca
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

just finished nuking some slop in a bix
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

so pretty good
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Hey, we've all got our happy spot... ;P
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

Did anyone hear about the TransCanada explosion yesterday?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

nope, did the mayour do crack again?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:02 AM

howdy folk
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

Hey, Aaron!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

Rick, probably. but the pipeline explosion just left lots of Canadians pretty cold. And caused a big fire. And spewed pollution.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:03 AM

so chapter 5, a question of size, I hope you got a lot to say beckers cuz a lot of this left me at a blank
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

You know. Oil industry. It's all safe and stuff.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:04 AM

no industry is by nature safe
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

yewp
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

I know
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

Ohh, Aaron, that's a good place to start!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

it's funny what they would consider an accident
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

well I mean, any industry has material at its core
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

and any material can be abused
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

even if its service based and that material is just people
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

solar isn't by nature safe
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:05 AM

let alone oil
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

Yeah, Rick. one side of my fam was all oil industry a generation back. Pretty hairy maimings and injuries. Just "part of the game" they say.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

I had a guy have an aneurism, die and fallinto the bottom of the welding stall and it was not considered a loss time accident
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

Those are excellent point, Aaron.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

pointS
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:06 AM

I did my mba in Pittsburgh, near the shale gas boom
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

i actually saw facet water light on fire
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

Oh, geez! I totally didn't think about that!
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

now theres an unsafe situation for ya
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

Dude.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

damnedest thing
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

I think I would petition to get off the planet after that.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:07 AM

water shouldn't burn
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

No, it shouldn't.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

I never could figure out why you were so down on Pittsburg...
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

:P
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

there are so many reasons
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

but mostly because its where i did my mba and doing a two year program in one is possible
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

but it makes you hate life
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

and where you are
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

no matter where you are
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

Pittsburgh in general though is a very large small town
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:08 AM

with a small town mindset
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

I can see that. And then, if your water is volatile, what redeeming value is there?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

Rick, Dude, that's hectic.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:09 AM

cheap energy
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

Cheap petrochemical energy?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

more or less
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

they want to believe that theres enough untapped energy out there that it doesn't matter
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:10 AM

and theres no need to be urgent
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

Well, that won't last much longer. They'd better revamp downtown or something...
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

there is actually a decent amount of energy in petro form out there that is untapped its just expensive to get to
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

that's why every once in awhile Russia goes through periods of economic boom
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:11 AM

if oil gets above a certain $/barrel, its profitable for them to drill
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

Well, aside from the economic cost, we've got other considerations. i mean, at what cost to life on this planet?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

so as soon as it does, they drill, make a ton of cash, which pushes the price down, then they stop
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

until its expensive again
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

Crafty Russians!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

we have five more years of petrochemical before my dad retires - by then we should be on a new sustainable source
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:12 AM

even oil can be responsible if in the right amount and situation
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

I really, really hope so, Rick!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

that's true, Aaron.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

most economic experts in that particular arena will tell you there are no silver bullet situations
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

And Schumacher stated that in an earlier chapter.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

in the future we'll probably have a wide variety of energy
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:13 AM

for all sorts of different situations
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

That's kind of my phiolosophy about how to do things in general - ther is no solution that works everywhere all the time.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

You have to find the best fit.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

its difficult though because picking the right energy mix requires a market that is educated
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

and willing to go through the effort
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

since coal is already there
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

And, i think that gets to the heart of what this chapter is about - finding regional solutions, growing communities instead of growing countries. Or GDP.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

and you don't need to do anything to get it
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:14 AM

just call it in and have them flip the switch
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Again, Aaron, you are so right.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

But making good choices in any arena requires an educated public. Consumers, voters, producers, policy-makers, ad nauseum.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Everyone needs to be a little bit of a Renaissance Wo/Man to find a good way forward.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

like a Britney Spears song, coal is Toxic
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

but we're off topic
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

question of size
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

No, no - we're right on topic.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

from an education perspective, if youre going to teach the public by a program
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:16 AM

at what size do you top off?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

the question of size has to do with reducing things to human scale instead of the ever-present drive to make everything huge and unwieldy.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

Human scale has to do with relationships.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

And there is great variation in human relationships in terms of harmony and accord.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

to teach, you need a community who is willing to learn
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

and most people shut down that process because education is shoved down their throats most their lives
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

I can certainly see that point, Rick. And i don't think we're doing education very well anymore.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

so, same question, if you're designing an educational program becky
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

Like our economics, it's based on industrial principles which are anachronistic but no one seems to realize it...
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

imagine even multiple teachers if you want
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

at what size do you get to big
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:18 AM

and why
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Yes. I was getting back there. :)
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

And the answer is...
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

it depends.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

on
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

Schumacher says it:
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

It depends on what you're trying to teach.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

For example:
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:19 AM

show your work
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

Ladybird Johnson worked on a paradigm shift campaign regarding the acceptability of litter.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

She was able to use propaganda (and that doesn't always have to be a BAD WORD)
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

and a few very public action campaigns
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:21 AM

and thereby appeal to the public consciousness and cause them to accept a new paradigm, which is that litter is shameful and we should all work to create "America the Beautiful."
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

it totally worked.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

okay so i see rick made a comment about teaching and brainwashing should not mix
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

The American sensibility is such that people who throw trash on the ground are Litterbugs. Litterbugs are bad.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:22 AM

teaching and brainwashing should not mix, but it do
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:22 AM

if im unpacking this correctly, i think that's a challenge on propaganda not necessarily being bad?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

rick, am i reading you right?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:23 AM

if so, i think becky you might want to elaborate
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:23 AM

yeah, I see that too. I was working up a response.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

The word "propaganda" was made into an epithet when it was used to scandalously describe what the Nazi public broadcasts."
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:24 AM

All propaganda is not brainwashing.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

To propagate something is to spread it forth.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

Propaganda is information - no judgement on said information is contained herein - that is spread forth.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:25 AM

It's not necessary and sufficient that it be bad.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:25 AM

im not necessarily sure i agree
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

propaganda is made to achieve a desired result
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:26 AM

its not just information
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

it just has a bad reputation, most of which has been earned. But, I think it's the height of irony that "propaganda" was propagandized into a negative reputation.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:26 AM

I agree with you, Aaron.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

if education is inspiring questioning and enquiry im not sure it can also be aimed at desired opinions
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

which propaganda is
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

or to use a variation on rick's cheese example, are eggs healthy? I lost track
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

propaganda that convinces people to pick up trash is not equivalent to propaganda that encourages you to rat out your Jewish neighbors, though.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

the same moves up the line to public broadcasting
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

broadcasting has an aagenda
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

the perspective of the owner having influence on what is being said or not said
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

they are being paid
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:27 AM

we had so man campaigns going both ways
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

like our government officials and lobbyists
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:27 AM

"buy cheese, it's healthy"
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

I totally hear you, Rick.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

And i agree.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

I'm just asking for a bit of a nuanced perspective.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

(And, to be fair, a group pf doctors is paying for advertisements that say that cheese is the root of the obesity crisis in America)
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:28 AM

nuanced would be refreshing
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:29 AM

cheese isn't at the root obesity, culture is, but i digress
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:29 AM

LOLZ. Maybe cheese has been the problem ALL ALONG...
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

Anyway,it's easy to confuse advertising and propaganda and truth and lies very often. It's not an easy thing to sort out.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

Which is a problem.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:31 AM

Because ti creates an apathetic public that doesn't trust the messages it's getting.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

so back to root topic
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

lets assume a not propaganda based situation
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:31 AM

what size do you top out on
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

Which brings us back around to the importance of an educated public, which, again, it difficult to achieve because education is heavily influenced by "desired opinions" rather than by modeling of the process of information analysis.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:32 AM

or do you lean on propaganda
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

hi ho the dairy o the cheese stands alone (sorry still on tangent)
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:32 AM

I lean on the cheese...
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

No, seriously, though.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

That's a difficult question.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

okay so what makes it hard
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

because these days, ideas can ripple through a culture lightning-fast.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:33 AM

technology makes it hard to answer.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:33 AM

if they're compact enough
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

140 charecters or less
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

you know, if the idea is "gangsta lean" i guess
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

"gangsta lean"
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

And so many people are studying, trying to find out how technology and rapid idea-disemination is affecting humans, and the jury is still out.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

so heres a question for you becky
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:34 AM

Like, how important is it that we all know something happened regarding Justin Bieber sometime recently?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:34 AM

something to contemplate
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:35 AM

Does i affect our cultural systems?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:35 AM

Oky, shoot.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

we read shumacher contemplate geo political units getting larger to a degree then falling into smaller sizes
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

we see businesses happening the same way
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:35 AM

units get larger, then management gets leaner
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

man, being an animal that communicates in increasingly nuanced manners
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

is this theory of growth then shrinkage
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:36 AM

also extend to ideas
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

and is it necessary for ideas to shrink in size in order to make the economics and societal groups do the same
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

YES!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

I think so!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

We take the larger idea, then we have to shrink it to human size:
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

i.e., how it fits into our individual lives,
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:37 AM

so, saving cultural and economic identity, 140 characters at a time
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:37 AM

our families,
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

our communities
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

FIRST.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

destiny by way of twitter and textx
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

scary
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Ideas and technologies have to find their place.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

Hahaha.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

No, it's more like Schumacher says about ACTION.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:38 AM

do tell
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:38 AM

All action is a highly personal affair.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

People do things.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

The larger units are made up of PEOPLE
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:39 AM

who DO THINGS>
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

Just like the larger unit of the human body has many small units that all do things to make the whole function.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

Beyond the level of organns and organ systems, down to the level of microbe colonies,
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:40 AM

chemical reactions, hormones, minerals, nutrients
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

The tiny factors affect the larger whole profoundly.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

In fact, the larger whole does not even fully conceive of how completely dependent on these minute factors for optimal function...
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:41 AM

until something goes wrong.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:42 AM

It's an apt metaphor for other systems.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:42 AM

Be they biological, ecological, or man-made.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

yeah, but at what scale do smaller things adding up to larger things
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

become too unwieldy
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:42 AM

where does the analogy fail
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

Well, the whole analogy is about HUMAN scale.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

So the breakdown occurs, of course, when our relationships become larger than we can manage.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:43 AM

Larger than human capacities.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:44 AM

i have no idea how big that is
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:44 AM

I think you may be leading me to Malcolm Gladwell's observations about human relationships.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

Well, even Schumacher says that's a difficult thing to pinpoint - how big is TOO big? He says that there's no algorithm to find what's right,
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

me?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

lead you somewhere?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

verbally?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

nah
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:45 AM

but we can certainly always find what's wrong.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

so how do we find?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:45 AM

or identify that wrong thing?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:46 AM

I think it's more of a feeling than something quantifiable.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:46 AM

When the list of ills gets longer and longer, society has capped out and needs to break down into smaller units.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:46 AM

yeah, that's difficult though, because if the feeling was that concrete so many people wouldn't get in over their heads
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

Hold on a sec, i'll see if i can find a reference.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

it would be a self correcting thing, when i don't really see that
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

okay
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:47 AM

And that's a good point. Elaborate on that.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

well if people always knew the feeling of more relationships than they can manage
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

then people wouldn't be in neglectful relationships as often as they are
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:47 AM

theyd trim back
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:48 AM

but in actuality i think most people know at least someone they don't connect with enough
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:49 AM

Well, i think we have a lot of harmful ideas pushing us toward organizations that are simply too large.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:51 AM

For example, the cycle of industrialization creates well-known social ills, BUT WE KEEP DOING IT.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

Industry comes in, cities grow, rural areas are bled dry as people head toward the cities, but growth is not fast enough to absorb everyone, so slums grow and grow and grow.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:52 AM

Everyone knows it's a bad system, but we somehow fail to implement a better one.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

What's that about?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:53 AM

Oh, and Wiki always comes through in my time of need: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:53 AM

well because everyone thinks they wont be the one shoved into the slum
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:54 AM

Malcolm Gladwell cites research that indicates that the average cap for the number of people that humans can successfully manage relationships with is about 150.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

its the same reason why a lot of no economically mobile voters still go in for corporate tax breaks
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

cuz the bait is that you vote for who you want to be not who you are
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:54 AM

"im gonna be rich, therefore, lets make it easy on the rich"
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

So, what you're saying is that people are delusional and dont' really know what's good for them.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:55 AM

You've answered your own question.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

delusional isn't how id put it
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

more like, if you want to motivate people you have to educate them to how they want to be
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:55 AM

now who they are
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

who really sells the idea of leaner and smaller groups?
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

Well, but that can maybe border on propaganda -
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

that's exactly what the political parties do.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

yeah, they do sometimes
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

i don't think climate change really does that
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:56 AM

Most especially the Republicans (I can cite studies, i'm not calling anyone out right now)
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:56 AM

they say we're boned, not, life will be good because of X
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:57 AM

Climate change is not a political party.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:57 AM

no, but it is something sold politically
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

and it speaks to who people are, not who they want to be
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

at least how its currently taught
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

Um, it also speaks to do-gooders like me, who want to do everythign they can to "live greener"
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

that's a WHO YOU WANT TO BE pitch.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:58 AM

yeah, but that's who you are
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:58 AM

Green cars.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

Green(er) fuels
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

you're already a believer
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

Local food.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

Yes.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

you aspire to hippiness
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:59 AM

But I'm still being sold politically.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

how does it speak to how the unconvinced want to be?
AM

Aaron Meyers · 2:59 AM

if it did, i think they wouldn't be unconvinced
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:00 AM

Oh, well the nay-sayers speak to how the unconvinced want to be, which is to say, unconvinced,. They want to live in a world where the environment is not going to force them to change or die.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

They want to live in a world where women aren't allowed to "kill fetuses," where God loves us and gives us oil to put in our big cars.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 3:01 AM

yeah, and just saying they want to be unconvinced doesn't really cause change
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:01 AM

Hold on, I'll find the study.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

http://www.amazon.com/The-Republican-Brain-Science-Science/dp/1118094514
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

Here's the book.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:02 AM

Looking for summary article.
AM

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

i think we may have to save this one
AM

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

its 10:02
AM

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

:P
AM

Aaron Meyers · 3:02 AM

and work/kids will be waiting in the morning
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

http://www.desmogblog.com/what-s-conservative-white-men-and-climate-change-denial
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:03 AM

That's true.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

hey, thanks for being here!
AM

Aaron Meyers · 3:04 AM

not a problem
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

This was fun!
AM

Aaron Meyers · 3:04 AM

see ya'all Friday everyone
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

Yep.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

We're starting part II - EDUCATION!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:04 AM

That will be something we can all chime in about.
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

'Night, Guys!
RT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 3:05 AM

have a good week!