Rebecca Westbrook Toker

Host

Small Is Beautiful Part II Chapter 2

Feb 9, 2014·28 visitors

Seth Westbrook Toker

Cohost

Stage· 354 messages

Feb 9, 2014

Seth is filling in for Aaron Meyers as we Tawk about EF Schumacher's game-changing Buddhist Economic theory from his master work, Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered. This week, we continue the discussion of resources with Part II Chapter 2, "The Proper Use of Land." ncheck out this free PDF version online at: nnhttp://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/student/~pdarshan/SmallIsBeautifulSchumacher.pdf

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“hi folks!”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

Hey, Folks!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

Howdy and Goodnight!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

How is everybody?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

hey neighbors!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:10 AM

We were coming down to the wire, so I have my trusty sidekick here to cohost with me.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

My Esteemed usual cohost (Aaron) is here in the audience.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

So, good!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

That gan's all here!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

gang.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

whoo! Books!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:11 AM

Yes, that.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:12 AM

Tonight we're looking at a Buddhist Economic deconstruction of the capitalist paradigm of land use.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:12 AM

Or something.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:12 AM

Its awesome

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:12 AM

but it can be broken down into a simple dichodomy

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

What can?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“that's a lot of words”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

those lots of words can be reduced

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

Yeah - i was going for impressive and snooty.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

we are impressd

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

Did i get there?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

I was

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

but simply put, the dominant world view is the "economic one" where everything has a monetary value and so land falls into that perview

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

purview.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

right

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

(He asked)

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:15 AM

the counterstance is to look at it from its metaphysical value, which is fallen off the economic chart

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:16 AM

So, this is what we've been seeing all along from Schumacher: purely economic considerations leave out the most important considerations,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:16 AM

namely mindfulness in management

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:16 AM

and beauty.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“fall back and talk about metaphysical value if you would?”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

we know from the science of the study of the brain, rewarding work and beauty are needed for a full and happy life

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

Well, Schumacher says that there is metaphysical value inherent in anything that can't be produced by humans.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“I don't think people know how value is assigned metaphysically”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“as opposed to economically, since you know, value, economics”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

That's exactly it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

You can't calculate metaphysical value,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

so we just, you know, leave it out.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

Beings have worth because they ARE, basically - says Schumacher

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

(And most human philosophy)

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:18 AM

but losing those attributes etches away at our soul, the meaning of being human and we need those to become who we are more fully.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

Yes.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

We talked a lot about that last week.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“okay, well metaphysical value is inherent in that which humans cannot make”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“yet those things have an assigned value to them all the time”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“i.e. airspace rights”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“we didn't make the airspace”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:20 AM

What do you think about that?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“so, resolve the attempt to place value with the reality”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:20 AM

The author makes the point that in caring for the land and seeking these pastoral rewards, the bounty seems almost a plesant by product

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:20 AM

"What is rational and what is sacred?"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:21 AM

This is the central question of this chapter.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:21 AM

Those are subjective questions.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“can the two coincide?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“in a center?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

Well, what do you think?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

Or, rather,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

What do you KNOW?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

Because you have a degree in finding that center.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

;)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“lol, sorta”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“but I think seth was onto something”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:23 AM

what was that?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“reward as by product”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:23 AM

can you expand on that Aaron?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“when seeking pastoral rewards, the bounty is a pleasant by product”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“that's the point you made”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“and if I had a guess, I think one of those is economic value the other metaphysical”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

Okay, so Schumacher says man and animals - and land itself - are viewed as factors of production, as means to an end

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

BUT IN FACT

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

they are ends in themselves.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:25 AM

Right?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:25 AM

So, if you treat these things as sacred,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:25 AM

if you care for their well-being and synchonicity,

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:25 AM

RIght, in pursuing the metaphysical rewards, treating animals with respect, the land with respect, by being stewards, we redouble the rewards and increase the meta rewards not only for ourselves but the enviormnent, our neighbors who look upon our he

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:25 AM

then you get the happy rewards of heal;th, beauty and permanence,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:25 AM

which are Schumacher's "Holy Trinity"

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:26 AM

healthy land, our healthy animals

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:26 AM

Well... Good chapter folks! good night!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:26 AM

hahahaha

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:26 AM

J/K

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:26 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“lol”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:26 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“there are some interesting quandaries though”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

The implication, of course, is that the INVERSE is also true.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

What do you see there? what are some sticking points?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

Aaron?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

If we take and sully and destroy, we make a big mess and make our own lives unhappy.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“lets pull up a challenge, with no real answer (shumacher's favorite)”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“consider the fact that solar energy, is the least land efficient way to produce energy”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“and requires acres and acres to produce on a utility scale”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“what would shumachers chapter dictate?”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:28 AM

Ok, I see that.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:28 AM

He's a big fan of LESS IS MORE.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:28 AM

He'd say scale back.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:28 AM

I think.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:28 AM

reclamation of the land through intensive growing/ rotational grazing?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

Probably.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

If the land is feral, leave it be?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

He definitely wants to move people BACK to the farms.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“im not sure intensive growing is possibly in that model”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

WHich model?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“it would require near monocropping”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“that's contra principle”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

Yes, monocropping is contra principal.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

The rotational grazing/soil building model I mostly mean

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

But intensive grazing actually brings back native flora - it's by no means monoculture.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

A la Joel Salatin.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

Not just throwing out ryegrass seed like you were cropping hay.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“it does if its allowed to stay that way”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

Good point.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

But that's not actually good land management.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

Im not sure he would be against solar farms.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

its the least harm path

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

And environmentalists are increasingly having to look harder at the "leave it alone" commandment.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“lets drift to another challenge, consider urban versus suburban living”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“the case for ubran sprawl versus urban growth”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“do you build up or out?”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

That's a big one.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:32 AM

all efficencies increase with the addition of vertical building

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:32 AM

the advent of public transport

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:32 AM

consolidation of heating, cooling

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:32 AM

and the new and effective method of vertical farming holds a lot of promise

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“so we want to grow the intensity of man made things per acre in the city atmosphere?”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“(admiral Akbar says this is a trap)”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“more man made crap per square foot?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

I don't like that model, either.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

But the evidence seems convincing.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

I Yes, more crap per foot is puting less of it out there.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

I would like to be convinced otherwise.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

concentrate the crap like a landfill

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“lol”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“like I began with all of these I don't think there is a true answer”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“because they all begin with, things being built”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

until we mostly live in a minimal impact kind of way

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

That's true.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

AND,

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

we should compact ourselves upward and rope in our spread

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“the convergant task is to begin with human habbits and nature”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

I side with Schumacher when he talks about there being a cap to the concentration of humans you can have all in one spot.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:35 AM

There's a point at which it IS too big.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“they are divergent tasks”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“(i.e. the impulse to build crap)”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“that's a good way to think about shumachers use of convergent and divergent”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:36 AM

Yeah, yeah it is.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:36 AM

And that's something else he brings back in this chapter,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:36 AM

without using CONVERGENT and DIVERGENT,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:37 AM

he talks about resolving seeming opposite impulses and realities.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:37 AM

And that's your center.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:37 AM

That's the overlap point at which we find our happy medium.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:37 AM

Like resolving AGRICULTURE and INDUSTRY.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:37 AM

Those are opposite principles of human activity.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:38 AM

But they NEED to be resolved,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:38 AM

instead of treating one like the other,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:38 AM

i.e., trying to make agriculture behave like industry.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:39 AM

Because the governing principles of each are incompatible,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:39 AM

yet we, as humans, do both things.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:39 AM

So, we HAVE to find a good marriage. We have to balance them.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“what are the governing principles of each?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:40 AM

Agriculture is a PRIMARY activity - we need it to survive. It deals primarily with life and living substance.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:40 AM

It deals with more factors than man can yet recognize and cope with, as

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:40 AM

"A cubic centimetre of soil contains milliards of living organisms"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:41 AM

Industry is, conversely,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:41 AM

a Secondary activity.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:41 AM

It is reductionist

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:41 AM

and we do as much as we can to strip away the living elements to make it more reliable and formulaic.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:41 AM

To make it "efficient" and "economic"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

So, you see, definitely incompatible principles.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

the simple idea of stripping away living components to make things work the way you want

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

did I miss everything, just got home

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

Hey, Rick!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

and applying that to agriculture.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

We're just getting it rolling!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

how can that ever resolve in a positive way?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“stripping away living things,...........to make things that are alive”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“yeah, that's divergent”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

did someone say strippers?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

we are stripping away the life to create life

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:45 AM

Well, as an example, commercial strawberry production relies on steam sanitization of the soil - the kill all the bacteria and microbes in about the top foot of soil with superheated steam,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:46 AM

and then use NPK fertilizer and pesticides to grow strawberries and keep the birds and buga away,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:46 AM

but that soil is dead.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:46 AM

Dead, dead, dead.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

If it were abandoned, it would take decades to build up enough living matter to grow plants again.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“of course most of this happens because these are the methods we need to feed so many people (at least at first)”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“the problem usually boils down to too many people”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

poor dead soulless soil

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

pourinf a fiddy out for mah homie the soil

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

Dude, that would help it!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

Beer is a great substrate.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“theres something morbid about pouring a fifty on the thing you are memorializing”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

soil likes beer

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

lotsa sugars

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

and yeast!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

i'd pour it on concrete

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

like you are helping it degrade?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

i think thats cool

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

is beer good for concrete?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

i hope they pour a soup of spores on my carcas

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:49 AM

You can will that now. Grow a fungus suit.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“I had a bad stout the other day, kind of tasted like concrete”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“does that count?”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:49 AM

that's concrete's revenge

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:49 AM

ROFL

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“its concretes revenge when the stout comes out like concrete”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

or sets up like concrete

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

like a bad solid head

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“touche”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“(pause for ewwwws)”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

Well, this one went down the gutter...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

does that happen in beer?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

now im truly curious

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:50 AM

a bad solid head

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

(googling)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

PS - A shout out for my new favorite brewing company, Magic Hat. Seriously. Look it up.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

I've seen it

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“yes, yes it does”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“try an irish car bomb, but don't finish it, just let it mix, that's kinda what I think its like”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

pressured beer at the end of the tap

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

Ewwwwww!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“ah, true”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:51 AM

i heard someone talk about how insulting that drink is to a true irish person

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:52 AM

Back to Schumacher!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:52 AM

makes you think

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“well its called a car bomb, I wonder if its an nra joke”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:52 AM

isn't the nra a joke enough

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:52 AM

Ooooooh!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:52 AM

he said what if a white bar serving a drink called the "Crip drive-by" got popular.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:53 AM

Yeah...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:53 AM

Not so PR and sensitive, that name.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:53 AM

Books!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:53 AM

YEA!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:54 AM

Aaaaah!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:54 AM

i have a baby, a husband and a cat in here, and there is stink.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:54 AM

But enough about my life.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:54 AM

We're talking about land management and farming,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:54 AM

blame the cat

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:55 AM

which is cool in the respect that Seth and i are working with a local, sustainable group of farmers.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:55 AM

And THEY have some ideas about land management.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:55 AM

we're out of toilet paper and it's the cats fault

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:55 AM

"Proper" land management

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:55 AM

is one of those DIVERGENT problems.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:56 AM

Yet, we've tried to solve it as a CONVERGENT problem increasingly over the last century.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:56 AM

Mostly because we've felt this kind of pressure as our population has grown,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:56 AM

as Aaron said.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:57 AM

I like how sugarcane fields in louisian burn the stalks to sterilize it before transporting it - great awesome controlled fires..they smelled incredible

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“well lets also keep in mind that in terms of human history the idea of land management is kind new”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:57 AM

Yeah.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:57 AM

Dude, we don't really know what we're doing.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“people for many years would just throw stuff up as they needed”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:57 AM

That's the thing.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:58 AM

We've never had this many people to feed, or tried to do it with as much mechanization as we're now employing.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:58 AM

and it's being taxed it's possible

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:58 AM

there isa system in place for everything

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:58 AM

yeah, Rick. We're trying to do it in a way that we can quantify - and tax.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:58 AM

And every time the methodology grows criticism,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:59 AM

people bring out the same tired argument: How are we going to feed the world?????

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:59 AM

But it's a specious argument.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:59 AM

We ALREADY produce enough food.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:59 AM

We waste BILLIONS of TONS of food per year.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:59 AM

That's not our problem.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

The problem is distribution.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

Which leads me to wonder if CENTRALIZATION is actually the issue.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

because we don't generally have starving people when food grows where people ARE.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“distribution of growers”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Concentration of farms, movement of people into those vertical city structures.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“its 9 <- this guy needs food”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Aaron Meyers

“take care everyone! Seth, thanks for pulling pinch hitting duty”

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

yup

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

what is that airline Spirit that is Centrally created with one hub all th eplanes fly out of no matter where you go...do theys till exist?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Hahahahaha!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

YES!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

Everything flies to Colorado.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:01 AM

I used that airline when I was in Peace Corps.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

Cheap, but it took FOREVER to get anywhere!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

later Aaron

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:02 AM

That is an hilarious comparison!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

So...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:03 AM

we know that a civilization's land management can make or break it, in the end.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

And much of our agricultural soil is clinically dead, at the moment...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

Historians and archaeologists now surmise that most of the large civilizations in history began to break down as the cities go too large and they began to overtax the environment.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

do they still exist?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:04 AM

they still exist...land management gets trickey when you get in the city

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

The Maya. the Aztecs.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

That group in Waco texas

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

yea, their methods all relied on taking more from the surrounds than the surrounds could provide

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

LOL

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:05 AM

i watched this bit on how they coated their buildings with lime

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

its really wood intensive to make it, burning lime stone and all

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

each century led to more and more lime coatings

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

Which culture?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:06 AM

without any brightening of the buildings

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

but the prestige of one-up-manship demanded it

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

they burnt all their forests

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

I think it was the maya

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

the same can be seen in many ways today

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:07 AM

the 3 gorge dam in china

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

which they believe is causing earthquakes

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

our dead ag soil

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

etc.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:08 AM

the idea is that they forgot they were the child of nature

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

and instead saw themselves as the master

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

each of these cultures

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

took too much.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

lost the connection and sought dominance

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:09 AM

instead of co-existence.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

So...at our peril, we continue to do the same.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

The thing is, WE DO KNOW BETTER!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

WE CAN DO BETTER!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:10 AM

yes

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

this may be the first time in human history we have direct evidence we can plot our course from

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

its really rather exciting

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

we can see the past fault plainly

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

SO...waht's the hold-up?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:11 AM

and the information is there to direct us forward

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

Greed. The industrial mind of simple economic value.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

Be a Buddhist!!!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:12 AM

But, really, we're at a point now where we can't keep asking if we can "afford" to do better -

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

we can't afford not to.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

And this is Schumacher's plea.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

Use better land-management principles,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:13 AM

strive for beauty, health, and permanence in public policy,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

and what will follow is a system that works for everyone.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Again, we KNOW this.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

We know what to do.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

We just need to get busy doing it.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:14 AM

Use less, consume less, first.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

After taht, seriously:

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

Go organic.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

It protects you, the environment AND the workers.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

Go local.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

Go sustainable.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

And you can't do all of this tomorrow,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:15 AM

but you can pick one thing to work on tomorrow.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Be mindful.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

And grow SOMETHING,

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

even if it's just a basil plant in your kitchen window.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

This chapter poses a problem, and we actually HAVE the answers this time!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:16 AM

Win!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:17 AM

Any thoughts?

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

Watch Dirt! the movie,

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

a love story

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:18 AM

( all one title)

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

and one that really appeals to me is Green Metropolis, its really interesting in looking at how efficient cities are at resource conservation. I know it seems crazy, but read at least an excerpt and try to see his point, its really neat.

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:19 AM

( a book)

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

So, Best Wishes to you all!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

Good night, Folks!

Seth Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

Hug a local Farmer!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 2:20 AM

Thanks for being here. See you next week, Rick!

Forum · 64

Forum· 64 comments

28 visitors

Tawkers AdminFeb 8, 2014, 11:09 PM

Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:01 AM★ Spotlighted

hi folks!

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:12 AM★ Spotlighted

that's a lot of words

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:16 AM★ Spotlighted

fall back and talk about metaphysical value if you would?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:17 AM★ Spotlighted

I don't think people know how value is assigned metaphysically

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:17 AM★ Spotlighted

as opposed to economically, since you know, value, economics

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:19 AM★ Spotlighted

okay, well metaphysical value is inherent in that which humans cannot make

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:19 AM★ Spotlighted

yet those things have an assigned value to them all the time

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:19 AM★ Spotlighted

i.e. airspace rights

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:19 AM★ Spotlighted

we didn't make the airspace

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:20 AM★ Spotlighted

so, resolve the attempt to place value with the reality

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:21 AM★ Spotlighted

can the two coincide?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:21 AM★ Spotlighted

in a center?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:22 AM★ Spotlighted

lol, sorta

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:22 AM★ Spotlighted

but I think seth was onto something

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:22 AM★ Spotlighted

reward as by product

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:23 AM★ Spotlighted

when seeking pastoral rewards, the bounty is a pleasant by product

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:23 AM★ Spotlighted

that's the point you made

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:23 AM★ Spotlighted

and if I had a guess, I think one of those is economic value the other metaphysical

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:26 AM★ Spotlighted

lol

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:26 AM★ Spotlighted

there are some interesting quandaries though

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:27 AM★ Spotlighted

lets pull up a challenge, with no real answer (shumacher's favorite)

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:27 AM★ Spotlighted

consider the fact that solar energy, is the least land efficient way to produce energy

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:27 AM★ Spotlighted

and requires acres and acres to produce on a utility scale

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:28 AM★ Spotlighted

what would shumachers chapter dictate?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:29 AM★ Spotlighted

im not sure intensive growing is possibly in that model

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:29 AM★ Spotlighted

it would require near monocropping

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:29 AM★ Spotlighted

that's contra principle

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:30 AM★ Spotlighted

it does if its allowed to stay that way

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:30 AM★ Spotlighted

lets drift to another challenge, consider urban versus suburban living

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

the case for ubran sprawl versus urban growth

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

do you build up or out?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:32 AM★ Spotlighted

so we want to grow the intensity of man made things per acre in the city atmosphere?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:32 AM★ Spotlighted

more man made crap per square foot?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

(admiral Akbar says this is a trap)

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

lol

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:34 AM★ Spotlighted

like I began with all of these I don't think there is a true answer

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:34 AM★ Spotlighted

because they all begin with, things being built

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:34 AM★ Spotlighted

they are divergent tasks

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:34 AM★ Spotlighted

the convergant task is to begin with human habbits and nature

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:34 AM★ Spotlighted

(i.e. the impulse to build crap)

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:35 AM★ Spotlighted

that's a good way to think about shumachers use of convergent and divergent

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:39 AM★ Spotlighted

what are the governing principles of each?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:42 AM★ Spotlighted

stripping away living things,...........to make things that are alive

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:43 AM★ Spotlighted

yeah, that's divergent

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:44 AM

then consume it as quickly as possible

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:46 AM★ Spotlighted

of course most of this happens because these are the methods we need to feed so many people (at least at first)

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:46 AM★ Spotlighted

the problem usually boils down to too many people

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:47 AM★ Spotlighted

theres something morbid about pouring a fifty on the thing you are memorializing

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:48 AM★ Spotlighted

I had a bad stout the other day, kind of tasted like concrete

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:49 AM★ Spotlighted

does that count?

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:49 AM★ Spotlighted

its concretes revenge when the stout comes out like concrete

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:49 AM★ Spotlighted

(pause for ewwwws)

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:50 AM★ Spotlighted

touche

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:50 AM

lol

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

yes, yes it does

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

try an irish car bomb, but don't finish it, just let it mix, that's kinda what I think its like

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

ah, true

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:52 AM★ Spotlighted

well its called a car bomb, I wonder if its an nra joke

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:57 AM★ Spotlighted

well lets also keep in mind that in terms of human history the idea of land management is kind new

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 1:57 AM★ Spotlighted

people for many years would just throw stuff up as they needed

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

distribution of growers

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

its 9 <- this guy needs food

Aaron MeyersFeb 9, 2014, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

take care everyone! Seth, thanks for pulling pinch hitting duty