RT

Small is Beautiful Part III Chapter2

Mar 18, 2014

ST
Stage· 282 messages
Mar 18, 2014

Tonight, join green techie Seth Westbrook Toker, green business guru Aaron Meyers and myself to discuss Part III Chapter 2 (Chapter 12 in the online version): Social and Economic Problems Calling for the Development of Intermediate Technology. The concept of Intermediate Technology - "The People's Technology" - holds incredible potential for growing small, local and sustainable economies. This is important! Come Tawk with us!

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:00 AM

Good evening, friends and neighbors!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:00 AM

How's everyone tonight???
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:00 AM

It's nice to see you all. :)
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:00 AM

Seth will be along in a minute.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:00 AM

He's taken over putting our son to bed, and sometimes is gets lengthy.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“howdy rebecca”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:01 AM

Howdyyy!!!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“good to see you too”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“howdy seth!”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:01 AM

Well, folks, it seems we have quite a lot to discuss tonght
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:02 AM

judging by the title of the chapter.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:02 AM

"Social and Economic Problems Calling for the Development of Intermediate Technology"
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:02 AM

Good to see you Robin, and Kelly back in the house of Buddhist Economics
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:02 AM

Thanks for being patient with us through the schedule changes. march is a weird month.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:03 AM

Aaron gave up Facebook for Lent, so he's been out of pocket.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:03 AM

day light savings and daylight during the night.....
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:03 AM

And Seth and i had our anniversary this weekend, so we totally didn't do our Saturday Tawk.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i have really been enjoying these tawks”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“sweet! happy anniversary!”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:04 AM

Thanks! And I'm glad you're all here tonight.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:04 AM

So...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:04 AM

there's a patronizing aspect of the language used in this chapter that bothers me.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:05 AM

But we can kind of get to that as it comes.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“please specify rebecca”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:05 AM

We're talking about developing nations, right?
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:05 AM

So, when we talk about developing nations,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:06 AM

we talk about what the developed nations can do for them,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:06 AM

and we usually use language that assumes we know what we should do for them.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:06 AM

And I know that I fall into this mental quagmire/verbal trap
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:06 AM

because I was a development worker.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:07 AM

And I just think it's useful to remind ourselves often that patronizing is unpalatable and it means that we think our opinion is the most important one in the conversation regarding what actions we should take and what development should look like.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i'm sure that would be the temptation.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“example?”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:08 AM

Well, as a specific example, he talks about productive work being a need for every man.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:08 AM

But it comes off as really patronizing,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:09 AM

like,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:09 AM

"For a poor man, the chance to work is the greatest of all needs , and even poorly paid and relatively unproductive work is better than idleness."\
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:10 AM

"Coverage must come before perfection.'
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:10 AM

(As in, we have to create a bunch of jobs before we can make it all egalitarian.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“woah! i see what you mean.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:11 AM

Yeah. It just comes off as very White Reich.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i am not a fan of that philosophy”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:11 AM

I am not a fan of that philosophy, either.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:12 AM

I mean, i recognize the importance of a "baby steps" approach - and even the concept of creating a job for every set of hands isn't exactly a small endeavor.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“AHHH the communication language. We have an idea, it has feeling image and many things that words cannot describe well. We put it into words that are coded by context, spit them out and when it comes to the ears of the other, gets decoded.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:12 AM

Yeah, and that happens.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:13 AM

I mean, this was written over 40 years ago, and Schumacher was pretty danged advanced for his time...but it's still kind of dated.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:13 AM

i would agree that some tawdry work would be better than boredom and idleness thought.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:14 AM

And sometimes, in your choice of language, you use words and ideas that fit your audience, so you can communicate more effectively with them.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:14 AM

ive had both and would prefer a crapy job
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:14 AM

You have to play into those widely-held beliefs and notions
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“YES, we need stuff writin for the now, and continue to grow, not grow on the same idea but to be open to change if it shows better promise.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“the creative individual can create his own passtime, and probably already has much experience doing so.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

Yeah, see, that's what hits me funny about this chapter, too-
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

robin i think thats part of the point. that is not idleness.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

does it really need to be that everyone participates in the economy in order to be fulfilled?
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:15 AM

thats creating your own work or goals
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:16 AM

But in Schumacher's LANGUAGE, it seems to be that he's implying that a job is the only opposite of idelness.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:16 AM

i would agree that not everyone needs to be plugged into the larger economy as well.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“i would say a resounding no, rebecca. = D”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:16 AM

And, to be fair, he's talking about creating MANY micro-economies.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:17 AM

having purpose is what is most important and the author states that himself earlier.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:17 AM

Give everyone a job in a local economy.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:17 AM

But...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:17 AM

people have been alive for centuries.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:18 AM

And I'm pretty sure they weren't just waiting around to get a factory job or a tenured position before they began to self-actualize.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:18 AM

People have pretty well kept themselves occupied through the motions of making a life.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“hahah i'm sure you're right!”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:19 AM

So this chapter seems out of step with what we've gotten so far.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:19 AM

theres this picture of the future that many people hold, including bill gates, that machines and computers will replace a majority of our jobs
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“The first nations here, did not have money of land ownership and yet, the best hunter never said i deserve more cuz I am the best hunter.”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:20 AM

and the result in these visionaries eyes is.... idleness
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“yes, i have usually found the 'work-a-day' world to be very inhibitive with regard to 'making a life.'”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:20 AM

much like what sheumacher deplores
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:20 AM

i see it differently wherein we can find not just a purpose but a larger, meaningful purpose.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:20 AM

But another thing Schumacher deplores is mechanization for mechanization's sake.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

Well, that may be inevitable due to forces.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“BAH, it frees us if we use it properly.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

He says very clearly that we have an imperative to CHOOSE to implement technologies that HELP us - that are TOOLS, not that take the place of human industry.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

but kelly, we work more than we ever had for less money!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“"idleness" is what allows us time to consider the workings of the world.”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:21 AM

we have these "super computers" in our pockets that can do what a mainframe did 20 years ago.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:22 AM

and we just work more.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:22 AM

No kidding!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“OH i know seth I know LOL”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:22 AM

the gate keepers....
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:22 AM

the holders of wealth found out that they can make us use these to get more productivity... and pay us less.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:22 AM

AND, for housewives, all of this technology was supposed to make our lives easier and the cleaning a breeze...and i don't know any mom that works less tahn her mother or grandmother at keeping the house.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:23 AM

exactly
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“you always see both people in a family setting working now days.”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:23 AM

to both of you, exactly
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“yep exactly”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:23 AM

but there's obviously faulty logic at work, here...
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:23 AM

so.... the circle rounds back to choices society must make to find what is important
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:24 AM

Well, yes - that's what I was trying to get to.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“So what are the options available?”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:24 AM

Seth, you said earlier that eliminating jobs means fewer people will have money to spend on the widgets, while the people who eliminated the jobs hoard more of the money...for what?
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:25 AM

They're cutting off their own noses to spite their faces...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:25 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“in the great depression there was people willing to work, stuff available in the stores, but without the money, no one could get anything. that is a system of faulty logic.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:26 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“They ARE that ignorant, they cannot see.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:26 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“yes they are!”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:26 AM

right. this is basic macro economics
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:26 AM

where when the money stops flowing
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:26 AM

economic stagnation occurs
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:26 AM

the great depression everyone pulled their dollars out of the banks and stocks
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

I am markedly NOT a genius, and I DON'T understand economics, and I can see this. So why are people who have degrees and get paid much better than I unable to make better decisions????
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

there was then no money to loan
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

and what the poor pulled they spend quickly and the rest horded
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:27 AM

the same is happening today in some ways
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:28 AM

Dude, yes.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:28 AM

the rich horde and dont spend in a similar ammount
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:28 AM

We've actually created the dangerous "dual economy" in America that Schumacher warns against creating in develping nations.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:28 AM

if they spent their billions.... why... there would be billions of dollars in circulation... buying stuff!!!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:28 AM

And as the middle class continues to shrink, it's only getting worse...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“they were indoctrinated into a system and gave plans to make it work BUT they do not question it. They believe in it. It is their own mind tricking them.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“Its all fear, they THINK they are keeping us up by giving us jobs. no one wants these jobs, they want to do what they want to do.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:29 AM

Well, that's kind of true, kelly.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:29 AM

the thing is to spend it usefully they need to make businesses and companies that make work. and those are complicated, so they horde or "invest" in ficticious thingies that are not attached to the real world of stuff and people
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:30 AM

But, I mean, I WANT to participate in society. i want to teach, which is what I view as my calling and contribution.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:30 AM

So it's not as if we all just want to sit at home and eat Cheetos.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:30 AM

I don't think that's widely true.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“Even without getting paid, i would still be an inventor.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:30 AM

I think most of us DO want to be productively employed.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:30 AM

But I think we want to have a work/life balance.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:31 AM

we would all do the things we were meant to if freed from the economic cycle.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:31 AM

And i also think we crave a connection with the basic things that keep us alive: the soil, nature, growing food, being with other...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“Do we think that anyone could sit around and do nothing for more then 3 months?”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“I have watched a study and no one can go beyond 3 months.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

Man, tree months would make me NUTS!
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

prisoners do it for years...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

Geez!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“"nothing" is hard to do”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

And when people talk about prison, that's the worst part of it!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

The waiting.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

the sitting.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:32 AM

Just KNOWING every day is only passing time.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

And...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

wait...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

that sounds like most jobs these days. :P\
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“Because for some, there will never be enough money... or power for that matter.”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

what is that condition, megalo manicac?
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

Yeah!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

That's it.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:33 AM

wait....
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

then all the rich people, the people in power, are mentally ill....
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

boy that worries me sometimes.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

yeah, man.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

They're all hoarders.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

If it was magazines or cats they had thousands of, people would say something.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“well, seth, that is my theory”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

well, how do you cure horders?
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

instead, they're featured in Forbes...
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

slowly remove stuff and get them therapy.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

Well, they get them out of the house and send in a team in Hazmat suits to scoop everything out before they come back...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:35 AM

So, maybe Occupy had the right idea for curing the money hoarders' disease.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

what was that?
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

Well, it's not as if Occupy has a central idea or mission,
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

i guess so...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

but largely, the idea that 1% couldn't have ALL THE MONEY.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:36 AM

it had philosophical points
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“Seth, is that like redistribute the wealth and get them into therapy? lol”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

I'd vote YES on that referendum.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

and the people who take it away, then THEY get therapy too!!!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

But now I've got an hilarious Woody Allen-esque film playing in my head...
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

cause thats where it stops.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:37 AM

about rehab for megalomaniacs.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

It actually looks kind of like Arrested Development...
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

maybe we need to re write the medical text book and create a new entry for the monied sickies
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

Oh, Kelly, i think we know why.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“sending them to rehab without finding out WHY they are that way will not solve the problem.”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:38 AM

and reform their mentality to that of a buddist
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:39 AM

buddhist.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:39 AM

it's just that narcissists rarely (if ever) report for therapy...because THEY are never the problem.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:39 AM

And you have to be goddamned narcissistic to think that you deserve so much wealth at the expense of every one else on the planet.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:40 AM

But...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:40 AM

Seth...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:40 AM

in a more general way,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:40 AM

humans are narcissists.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:40 AM

we all are to an extent..
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

go on
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

I think our whole species needs to go into therapy and come out reformed as Buddhists.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

hmmm....
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

i would agree that that would be wonderful
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:41 AM

Because, honestly, we think we are entitled to whatever we can suck out of the earth, at the expense of the rest of the planet.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

i think some powers that be are afraid of the idea of buddhists. the chinese fight and suppress them.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“yes, rebecca. it is definitely insane”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

People. Humans. Us. We are them.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

i do feel implicated.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:42 AM

It may not be my fault, but I'm still part of the problem. :P
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

i feel i have to be some little bit narrissistic just to survive
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

And don't do a very good job of cleaning up.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“We suck it out, we pipe it and then we spill it.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

We should be sent to be early with no dinner!
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

bed
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

Yes, to bed. :)
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

You;'re right, Seth.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:43 AM

We do have to be a little bit narcissistic to survive.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

ok,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

And to kepp the ego intact.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

so the problem is we let that get infront of our humility?
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“if you look at what is happening right now, you can see the shift. people are starting to understand.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

Yes.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

The definition of a mental illness, or the measurement,
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

go on kelly
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“I don't agree”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

is that it interferes with daily functioning and relationships.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“I think ego is a main cause of pain and fear.”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“I worked with many people who still don't have a clue.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:45 AM

Tell us more about that, Mike.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:46 AM

no offence Mike, you look a little older than some of our other guests.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:46 AM

We're glad you're here!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:46 AM

Nope.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:46 AM

I need a meditation coach.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“let me ask you all this. can you silence your mind?”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:46 AM

i can't do it.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

and this awareness, as I see it, comes from those who have held on to their ideals when they were younger, perhaps like yourself, or the current youth
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

we havent worked on it much.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“how much do you try?”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:47 AM

its hard to get away from the sticky octopus
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:48 AM

I didnt mean to shut you out mike.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:48 AM

By which Seth means that our 2-year-old doesn't give us a lot of meditation time. ;D
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:48 AM

Congrats on retirement!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“63 just retired. When I was in my 30s I listened to and believed the likes of Rush Limbaugh. Then I "wised up".”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:48 AM

i hope to retire in about 4 years
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Robin Maynard

“congrats on 'wising up' ! = D”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:49 AM

Hey, Kelly, don't judge...environment is powerful.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“rush really?”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:49 AM

What did it for you, Mike? what made you see the world as less narrow?
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“It does not take long, 5 minutes a day.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

I have a buddy who is, in his own words, a "recovering right-wing nut." It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, when you are surrounded by dogma, you absorb it, especially in your formative years.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“I got educated and got involved with my local union.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:50 AM

And then it takes 20 years for you to reprogram yourself!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:51 AM

And all of us have ideas that we haven't examined that we just accepted. Science has those ideas. Social paradigms are hard to change,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

and we learn to think through those paradigms without realizing we're doing so.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

So we all have plenty of work to do!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

Anyway:
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

This is awesome!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“Education. Labor Studies program at Indiana University Northwest.”

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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:52 AM

yea! we were listening to a radio show where the guy was talking about these studies other scientists would not even bother reading, REFUSED to read, because of the subject matter.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:53 AM

I was just saying today that I would love to see an economy that was strongly unionized again.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:53 AM

I think it would be lovely!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:53 AM

When labor has power, people tend to be happier.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:53 AM

*unions are not perfect, there are political aspects/problems...
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:53 AM

me too. I think back on the eras of unions and i see happyish workers, busy businesses etc.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:53 AM

but i like the weekend and NOT working at 9 years old.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:54 AM

Yup!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“It is hard to make intelligent decisions when you don't get the truth.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from kelly mackin

“Yes, its all environmental, tv shows conflict, stories, magazines, parents, friends, all of it is us learning from environment.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:54 AM

And now there's plenty to keep us entertained so we don't even know we don't know what's going on! :D
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:55 AM

hey man, back off my game of thrones.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:55 AM

:P
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:55 AM

You just watch it for the boobies, anyway...
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

and the dwarf! by far the best actor there.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

Well, so we're coming to the end of the hour, and i want to know what you guys think we can do that would be better.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

atleast in the 3 episodes i watched
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

was it bad>
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

?
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:56 AM

the concepts that Schumacher presents are good: intermediate technology instead of inappropritelt modern technology,
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mike Dwornik

“Talk about history repeating itself, look at the distribution of wealth back at the end of the 1800s.”

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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

decentralization,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

and local products made for local use.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

i would like to say that yes, the wealth may be there.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

Robin, Regarding society.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

Mike, you know, you are right!
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:57 AM

it was TERRIBLE in the US!
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:58 AM

but for the first time the entire pantheon of human knowledge is in reach of most of humanity, not just those surrounding the power holders.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:58 AM

THAT is our hope
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:58 AM

Rich families wound up with HUGE swatches of land...like, major ports, 5 families owning a whole state, etc.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:58 AM

It was VERY corrupt.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

but the rich are on the run, in a way. soon we will not need the things they can withold from us now.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

Seth, you make a good point.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 12:59 AM

I HOPE that's true.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

i have a lot of hope for de centralization, local economy, barter and self sufficency
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

And the leveling of the knowledge field is marvellous...I mean, refer to the Freakonomics chapter on how much has changed in Real Estate now that people have access to prices, etc. online.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

property values, property taxes, sales records...
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

Remodeling estimates...
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

3D printing, medicine at home, 5 dollar DNA sequencing, water recycling etc.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:01 AM

yes.
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:01 AM

I'm not saying that techology is going to save us all,
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Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:01 AM

it just seems that better access to knowledge is serving the general populous in ways that have never been seen.
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:02 AM

well, thanks for coming!
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Seth Westbrook Toker · 1:02 AM

Good night!