Jordan Birnbaum

Host

Spiritual Illness -The Non-Religious Kind

Jul 24, 2013·53 visitors

Michael Shapiro

Cohost

Stage· 214 messages

Jul 24, 2013

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

Professor Shapiro, I presume?

Michael Shapiro · 1:05 AM

Hello everyone--it's good to be back in such good company.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

Thank goodness

Michael Shapiro · 1:05 AM

How are you Jordan? Feeling up to some depth?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

I am. Actually this is exciting for me because

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

usually I tawk about things that make me angry and depressed and hopeless (aka politics)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

but this subject might actually give me some hope!

Michael Shapiro · 1:06 AM

Yep. That's part of the illness.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

All right - I can certainly cop to my own self destructive behavior. All right, to get started...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

Why don't you share with our forum your generally theory about spiritual illness in humanity

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“haha this is going to get existential fast :)”

Michael Shapiro · 1:07 AM

Glad to. Let's start with some definitions, though. What we mean by "spiritual."

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

And how, Rach!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

it ain't organized religion - made sure to put that in the title

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Fear of death - the raison d'etre for religion.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:08 AM

Obviously, the term has been turned into a dung pile by organized religion.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

he he - he said dung pile

Michael Shapiro · 1:08 AM

No offense to those of you who subscribe to one, but religion is part of the problem.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

way to stay on track there, shapiro

Michael Shapiro · 1:09 AM

Spiritual is also mistaken, I think, to mean something beyond us, outside of our "normal" existence.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“fear of lack of control too I think rick”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

I almost think of my spirit as my mind, my being

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“I love seeing David Kaudman in the audience of JB's tawk - its like when the good and bad wrestlers go out for coffee after the match!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

my sense of things

Michael Shapiro · 1:10 AM

That sets up a false dichotomy, one that puts spirituality in another dimension, slightly out of reach and rarefied.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

Yes Blake - the Democrats and Republicans are in cahoots. David and I are part of the problem.

Michael Shapiro · 1:10 AM

As though there were matter and then spirit--the old Cartesian dualism.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

so how do you define spirit

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“Just call me David "The Crusher" Kaufman.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:11 AM

Spirituality is, in the most simplistic terms, the recognition that we are part of something larger than ourselves.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“hm I like that Michael.. I see it as outside of us but inside ourselves as well.. it is a "connection" between both worlds I think..”

Michael Shapiro · 1:11 AM

I choose these words carefully.

Michael Shapiro · 1:12 AM

Indeed Rachel...I'd take it even further to suggest there is no inside/outside dichotomy. That's something we've set up to describe a feeling of disconnectness.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Kelly Carlin

“B/c there is the subjective/objective/cultural/and intrasubjective ways to look at that big word...”

Michael Shapiro · 1:13 AM

But "recognition" is an important term, because it suggests that we are not and have never been disconnected from something larger. We just fail to be conscious of it. That is the basis for spiritual illness.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

@kelly, it always comes down to semantics. damn you, language!

Michael Shapiro · 1:14 AM

If each of you examine the source of your respective suffering, what is the common denominator?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I like that definition, Michael. I do. The spiritual is, maybe, then, what we know when we get still enough to listen!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Kelly Carlin

“sense of the numinous?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

for me, it's wanting

Michael Shapiro · 1:14 AM

I am available for lunches, Kelly. You buying?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:15 AM

wanting to connect, to accomplish, to feel fulfilled, and it sucks when I don't

Michael Shapiro · 1:15 AM

Wanting what, Jordan? What would give you the sense of satisfaction that erases any further wanting?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:15 AM

Nothing.

Michael Shapiro · 1:15 AM

Nothing imaginable by the self, anyway.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

I guess my happiest existence is in connecting with other people, even though I also find that terribly tiring sometimes

Michael Shapiro · 1:16 AM

The thing we desire most is a sense of belonging. That we belong in the universe, that we have value in it. That we are not alone.

Michael Shapiro · 1:16 AM

That we are loved.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

you said something to me leading up to this about we know we're connected to something, but we don't know what, or something like that. Can you explain how you see it?

Michael Shapiro · 1:17 AM

That sense of belonging to something beyond ourselves is what drives the religious impulse even to the point of zealotry, and what subtends our collective national anxiety.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“The common denominator seems to be...self-imposed. The self-imposed nature of the suffering. Ouch.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“I agree Rebecca, we are all so hard on ourselves aren't we?”

Michael Shapiro · 1:18 AM

Well, Jordan, I can put it this way: If you believe that you are an individual, self-willed, autonomous and finite, you will inevitably feel alone and disconnected.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

So, there's a film called Waking Life that I urge you all to see

Michael Shapiro · 1:18 AM

But if you feel that there is a greater purpose to your life, a choreography if you will to existence, then you can relax into the notion that there is a deeper consciousness at work.

Michael Shapiro · 1:19 AM

Unfortunately, people take to writing books about this and calling it "God."

Michael Shapiro · 1:19 AM

Great film, btw.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

in it, they describe an actual experiement (I checked) in which a bunch of people were sequestered in a house for a week.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

Each day, they were given the crossword puzzle from the previous day's paper. In other words, everyone else but them had done that crossword the day before.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

and the people in the house scored massively higher than average when they did the puzzles.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

The idea being that the collective subconscious had processed the puzzles the day before, so the people in the house had access to that, and were able to do better.

Michael Shapiro · 1:21 AM

Yes, this is the sort of thing that happens all the time, but we're mostly unaware of it. We're not necessarily individuals so much as nodes of an energetic network.

Michael Shapiro · 1:21 AM

This has all sorts of horrible consequences.

Michael Shapiro · 1:22 AM

Let me ask you all: What is the purpose of our civilization? Let's say for convenience sake, the construct we call "The United States?"

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:22 AM

hold on before we go there, answer this

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Kelly Carlin

“Michael - this thing bigger than us.. does it matter if it's real or that we are just connected to that sense of The Other.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:22 AM

Michael Shapiro · 1:23 AM

Good question Kelly. I'd say that the structure of your question reveals a conceptual bias: that there is anything objectively "real" outside our experience.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:23 AM

of course, there's the semantics problem of "real." damn you, language!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

BTW -I did warn you all that he is so smart it's almost intolerable.

Michael Shapiro · 1:24 AM

It's a valuable question to investigate, but you eventually start running on the hamster wheel. What is knowable? What isn't? In the end, you have to abandon that question of whether something is "real" or only "experienced."

Michael Shapiro · 1:25 AM

In order to embrace the totality of which we're part. In the end, "real" is conceptual framework we use to organize our experience. It doesn't say anything about how things really are.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:25 AM

You got a point there, Morpheus.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:26 AM

Hey forum - we're going to bring it back to religion when we start adressing the tangible, so keep the faith

Michael Shapiro · 1:26 AM

I'm game.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

Michael - what other experiments do you know of that proivide some suggestion at a possible unacknowledged connection between people

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

Like, I know that one person's brainwaves can affect the electrical conductivity of another person's skin.

Michael Shapiro · 1:28 AM

I'm not sure I can point to experiments directly, though there are a number of them. I can point to my own experiments with Amazonian shamanic practices.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

Pardon my french, but fuck yeah!

Michael Shapiro · 1:28 AM

That flower I use as my profile picture is from an ayahuasca vine, a visionary plant that's been used in the Amazon for millennia to access the spirit world.

Michael Shapiro · 1:29 AM

I've take it a number of times with accomplished shamans, and I've directly experienced intersubjectivity. I've been able, for example, to watch another person's memories.

Michael Shapiro · 1:29 AM

And confirmed their accuracy by talking with said people afterward.

Michael Shapiro · 1:30 AM

I've accurately used far-seeing to communicate with a friend of mine who wrote down almost word for word the message I sent telepathically.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

I mean....was it frightening? exhilarating?

Michael Shapiro · 1:31 AM

These are not isolated examples. And it gets even weirder than that. But I'd say they were not only exhilarating, they were life-changing.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:31 AM

guys, I know this sounds crazy, but trust me that Michael is likely the sanest man I've ever met.

Michael Shapiro · 1:31 AM

I was trained in science and for most of my life until that point had a purely empirical, mechanistic view of reality.

Michael Shapiro · 1:31 AM

I dismissed as nonsense anything that smacked of the supernatural or superstitious.

Michael Shapiro · 1:32 AM

I was a confirmed atheist. An ideological purist.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

So let's engage the audience - this primal need in us for connection is exp[loited by religion. Fair to say?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Religion IS part of the problem - it's divisive. We have no time to continue to indulge the kind of, let's say adolescence, that humanity seems to be stuck in. We need to move forward, and dropping the veils of religion is a huge and necessary step.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Because control is generally an illusion.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“@Brad yes I think those in power and org. religion definitely sort of makes US feel to blame for the failures of the country.. we have become self-deprecating and defeatist because of this I believe”

Michael Shapiro · 1:33 AM

Yes, it's dead-on. But I think, too, that most religions started out with and many retain a seed of mystical union.

Michael Shapiro · 1:34 AM

But it's a human institution, and as such, it manifests human flaws, like the desire for power.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

Now, what about the spirits of those who do the manipulating? And the spirits of those who follow with blind rage?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

★ Spotlighted from Durable Brad

“@Rachel McDonnell: Religion is a 10% scam.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:34 AM

What about them?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

what is wrong with them that they feel the need to create such an ugly power dynamic?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“yes I know organized religion is a scam and also just watched the zeitgeist movie a while back. Still wrapping my brain around that one.. but either way I believe in something far greater than ourselves even if it is connection like Michael said here”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“@ Rachel: That's the way I've come to be able to talk to people about religion. I just say to myself "It's all the same thing. It's all the same."”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“@Rebecca it really is all the same and if people looked into their hearts they would see this. but when money is introduced into religion I fear it becomes far too corrupt and people are lied to and frightened by those "leading" sermons..”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Rachel, I think it is worse even than money - it's our reptilian-brain tribalism that we can't seem to evolve out of!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Durable Brad

“The government want to create false reality through fabricated experiences.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:36 AM

Nothing is wrong with them. They're unconscious, at a stage in their evolution where fear of dying, the desire for permanence and profound insecurity drive their actions.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

let's not forget the government...

Michael Shapiro · 1:36 AM

We don't look at children, who in most ways are maniacs, and say there's something wrong with them.

Michael Shapiro · 1:36 AM

They're just immature.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

that's a good one - I like that. Fucking children...

Michael Shapiro · 1:37 AM

If you live with a sense of fear, if you worry that you are only one little person with one little life and that's all you get, you will naturally act selfishly (and deludedly) in ways that are radically destructive.

Michael Shapiro · 1:37 AM

That's where we are right now with most of humanity.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

so is there a path to bridge that gap? Because I saw a story today that new research suggests that NY and Boston are already doomed, so we better hurry up before we lose all our real estate.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“@Michael I would agree in part to that, I think corrupt people have been taught those behaviors and have learned that they rarely get punished for bad actions so nothing forces them to change or own up to their harmful behavior”

Michael Shapiro · 1:38 AM

Even those of us who are not destructive of others are destructive of ourselves--that comes in the form of anxiety, depression, self-judgment and blindness to the basic miracle that we exist at all.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

so just how intertwined is psychology in this whole spiritual picture.

Michael Shapiro · 1:39 AM

The gap between what and what?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

the gap between where we are now and mental telepathy

Michael Shapiro · 1:40 AM

Telepathy is an artifact of awareness--not really an aim itself. The aim is to rest in what Buddhists call the "ground state of being," an awareness that is uncorrupted by the content of what it sees.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

well, it was easier to convey that with 2 words

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

mental telepathy

Michael Shapiro · 1:41 AM

Just as a mirror reflects accurately everything that appears in it--a cute puppy or a nuclear blast--yet remains unchanged by the content.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

that was a little Confuciousy

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

is that a word? Confuciousy?

Michael Shapiro · 1:42 AM

Sounds like a dessert pastry.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Durable Brad

“Allowing psychopaths to govern or lead religious movements indicates our species is NOT mature.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

So does the realization that we are immature make you feel better or worse about things in general?

Michael Shapiro · 1:42 AM

Right Brad. We buy into the rhetoric of charlatans who inflame and then promise to alleviate our fear.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“ok THAT agree with Michael. So that immaturity is either shown as selfish behavior or self-deprecating behaviors.. very interesting.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“I'm a yeshiva boy. We grew up orthodox, and my mother hated it until that point. It was the organized religion aspect of it that was initially repellant, and then attractive to her.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

Yes - to paint organized religion as only bad is overly simplistic and simply wrong

Michael Shapiro · 1:43 AM

Better. It takes the edge of judgment off and holds out hope that as we evolve together as a species, we will also collectively mature.

Michael Shapiro · 1:44 AM

Yes, Rachel. And both of those are born of a sense of disconnection and the false belief in a monadic self.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

So then everyone should feel a purpose - to help humanity evolve to the point that our existence is far more rewarding

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Man may try to organize 'religion' but religion and spirituality are not easily organized, categorized or measured.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:44 AM

So the question circles back to: What is the purpose of our civilization?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

ain't that the truth, rick

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“At a certain point, though, Michael, children MUST grow up, must take responsibility for their own actions. I think the problem we have is the stagnation point that most people reach; the HAVE TO remain disconnected for industrial civilization towork”

Michael Shapiro · 1:45 AM

I'd like to agree Rebecca, but there's no imperative, no "must."

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

Well @Rebecca - there may need to be a fundamental shift in how we function as a society if we are to evolve and avoid extinction.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

I mean, does humanity becoming extinct matter?

Michael Shapiro · 1:46 AM

I doubt humanity will become extinct. We'll experience a massive correction at some point, most likely. But it would be better to avoid that by unifying ourselves.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

oh my god, there's too many good comments in the forum to keep up...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I did a dissertation on LSD psychotherapy. Trying to capture a psychedelic experience is like trying to capture a religious experience - transitory. You can look through the door, but . . .”

Michael Shapiro · 1:46 AM

Take a look at Bhutan or old Tibet for an example. They had created a society bent on one thing: Liberation of all sentient beings from delusion.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

Yeah, but without delusion I would never feel good about myself.

Michael Shapiro · 1:47 AM

You'd also never feel bad about yourself.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

touche, douche

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“I guess it goes back to tribalism, right?”

Michael Shapiro · 1:48 AM

It's not the first time someone's called me that.

Michael Shapiro · 1:48 AM

What does, David?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:48 AM

so the tribalism thing - is this our nature - because that goes against the idea of connectivity. Or is tribalism a phase like adolesence?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I have never been a skywatcher, but I sort of hope the aliens do make themselves known, so we'll have to accept that we (humans) don't know much and we'd better stick together.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:49 AM

Tribalism arises out of spiritual illness as well--the false notion that there's a self and an "other." And the need to form tight social bonds as defense against the other.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

I too Rebecca have thought that only an alien attack could save us...(irony alert)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Don't worry, Yoko”

Michael Shapiro · 1:50 AM

Of course we need to move past tribal identifications into the next stage. If any identification is needed, it should be: I am a human living on Earth. Everything else is bullshit.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“We'be spent lots of time here talki about how we are seeking connections to each other, and how we Re interconnected. That sounds very tribalistic. I don't mean that as a pejorative.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:50 AM

It's only tribalistic if it excludes anyone, David.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

yeah man - every 4th I tweet "Humanism before patriotism." I don't know why I haven't made the bumper sticker yet.

Michael Shapiro · 1:51 AM

Because some knucklehead will key your car.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

that bastard.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“"Everything else is Bullshit." That's my new daily affirmation! :D”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“I think that's too large for humans to handle. That's why I'm talking about tribalism. You can call it a community, also.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:52 AM

We face very real problems, but the subtending problem, the one that needs to be addressed before anything else can be solved, is the sense of disconnection from each other and from the world in which we operate.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

yes David, it's interesting that tribal can be interpreted as separating us or connecting us. (that's deep, dude)

Michael Shapiro · 1:53 AM

The way to address it is by dropping all of our conceptual frames about how things are (or how we would like them to be) and rest in the basic ground awareness--an awareness that is not personal but threaded throughout the universe.

Michael Shapiro · 1:53 AM

Because everything is consciousness.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

so is ego our greatest enemy?

Michael Shapiro · 1:54 AM

Nope. Ego, like anything else, is a useful tool. It's our assumption that the ego is real that's the problem.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I don't know if connection with each other is what we lack. It's connection with every thing else that, I think, defines spirituality,”

Michael Shapiro · 1:54 AM

Our greatest enemy is fear and the selfish action that flows therefrom.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

what's the "everything else" Rick?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:55 AM

OK -so assuming we do meet the aliens some day - won't they be part of the same life force as we?

Michael Shapiro · 1:55 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“point is, we can never be 100% sure about anything.. not really. We just need to all accept that and try to live well with uncertainty plus most of the best things in life come as surprises what are we all so scared of?”

Michael Shapiro · 1:56 AM

Who's to say we haven't already met the "aliens?"

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“But can't that everyone-ness really take you away from connectedness? If everybody means the same thing to you then there can't be any specialness.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

answer that

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“ooh very deep David. :)”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

agreed, Rach.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“Im on a roll.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:57 AM

Acknowledging that we are all part of something larger than we're normally aware of doesn't seem to me to require a sense of homogeneity. There is endless variety being co-created at every moment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“the natural world @J”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Yes, Jordan! That's the head-exploding realization that people will have to come to! The universe is BIG and we're ALL HERE.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

I'll tell you what - I feel VERY connected to everyone here, and that has taken a HUGE chunk of my spiritual illness! (I'm still very sick, of course...)

Michael Shapiro · 1:59 AM

If we can release every idea we have and look compassionately on ourselves, on others and the living world of which we're part, we have a chance. But that requires us to drop ever preconception we have. Even the big one: That I am.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“It may not matter what actually is and what actually HAS HAPPENED - it really only matters what we are willing to accept. That's the crucial difference between mind-opening and mind-closing.”

Michael Shapiro · 1:59 AM

You're not sick, Jordz. You're just lonely.

Michael Shapiro · 2:00 AM

Maybe you need a dog?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

Gee. Mike, thanks for making me cry in front of all these poeople.

Michael Shapiro · 2:00 AM

It's my gift.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

malignant narcissist bastard

Michael Shapiro · 2:01 AM

It took a lifetime of practice.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

You gotta address David before we go out.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“That's not what I'm saying. If I view everybody as one equivalent cog in the same interconnected ness - that is, I don't deal with a smaller community but only look at humanity as a whole, I have no ability to actually connect.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:01 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“I need to connect, but with a smaller community - a tribe, if you will - I'm order to actually have a sense of belonging. Otherwise, I'm just adrift in a sea of everything. I'm still alone, just aware of lots of other stuff.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:02 AM

The "I" you're talking about has no ability to connect on such a macro-level. I agree. But turn the lens of your incisiveness back on that filter, the "I," which is self limiting and may be blocking you from receiving. It might not happen all at once

Michael Shapiro · 2:02 AM

It's more like the slow blooming of a rose.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

and let's go out wiht a tribute to another great movie

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“if anyone hasn't seen "I Love Huckabees" watch it! It goes so deep into these existential topics and how everything is interconnected even love and hate VERY interesting movie”

Michael Shapiro · 2:03 AM

As long as we're walking around with our blinders on, we will keep walking into walls.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“@ Rachel: I love that movie! It is so deeply funny to me that I can't even find words!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“@Rebecca I watch it once a year and get something new from it every time.. AMAZING movie! :)”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

This was so much fun, they'll probably make it illegal eventually

Michael Shapiro · 2:04 AM

I hope so. Then more people will try it.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

Michael - you are an amazing man, and I feel blessed to be your friend.

Michael Shapiro · 2:04 AM

Likewise, Jordan. Thanks for hosting this, and thank you everyone for your participation!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

Forum, you guys are my new family.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“*group hug* for Jordan lol.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Jordan, let go”

Michael Shapiro · 2:05 AM

You're gonna be poor come Chanukah.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

And we'll do this again next week. see you then.

Michael Shapiro · 2:05 AM

Aloha!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

and if you're coming after the fact, hit the "top" button in the upper left corner to pick this up from the beginning.

Forum · 175

Forum· 175 comments

53 visitors

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:01 AM

now this is one tawk i am looking to. i intend to be enlightened and uplifted :-)

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:02 AM

I'm here in spirit, ill or otherwise.

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:03 AM

aww you ill,Rick?

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:03 AM

The illusion of a god-in-the-sky is enough to make my spirit ill.

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:04 AM

fair enough

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:04 AM

made it with a minute to spare yes. hi everyone. :)

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:04 AM

Hello Rachel

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:05 AM

hi rick :)

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:05 AM

hey rachel

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:05 AM

hi jordan and michael :)

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:05 AM

hey lucy

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:05 AM

hey JB and Michael

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:05 AM

Yes. I am here.

Tawkers AdminJul 24, 2013, 1:06 AM

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Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:06 AM

i would say i'm here...but i may well not be. i never can tell

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:06 AM★ Spotlighted

haha this is going to get existential fast :)

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:07 AM★ Spotlighted

Fear of death - the raison d'etre for religion.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:08 AM★ Spotlighted

fear of lack of control too I think rick

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:08 AM

I don't think that organized religion is automatically contrary to spirituality.

Blake IanJul 24, 2013, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

I love seeing David Kaudman in the audience of JB's tawk - its like when the good and bad wrestlers go out for coffee after the match!

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:09 AM

organized religion is ridiculous in that they make people believe they HAVE to belong to a religious org. to be "spiritual" FALSE.

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:09 AM

I'm so happy you are defining terms...spirituality is the most abused term these days.

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:10 AM★ Spotlighted

Just call me David "The Crusher" Kaufman.

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:10 AM

Losing control can be a good thing.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:10 AM

hahaha proving yet again.. we need not be enemies.. simply because we disagree ;)

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:10 AM★ Spotlighted

B/c there is the subjective/objective/cultural/and intrasubjective ways to look at that big word...

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Because control is generally an illusion.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Religion IS part of the problem - it's divisive. We have no time to continue to indulge the kind of, let's say adolescence, that humanity seems to be stuck in. We need to move forward, and dropping the veils of religion is a huge and necessary step.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:11 AM★ Spotlighted

hm I like that Michael.. I see it as outside of us but inside ourselves as well.. it is a "connection" between both worlds I think..

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:11 AM

Smells like...

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:11 AM

"Luminous beings are we! Not this crude matter."

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:12 AM

Dust, with light shining through David

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:12 AM★ Spotlighted

sense of the numinous?

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:13 AM

@Rick Psychologically speaking... I think fear and specifically fear of lack of control.. ironically controls MANY people. :/

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:13 AM

And yet, one of the bases for kashrut is the consciousness of the sacredness and spirituality of the body, and th consciousness of what is consumed by the body.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:13 AM★ Spotlighted

I like that definition, Michael. I do. The spiritual is, maybe, then, what we know when we get still enough to listen!

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:13 AM

Our spirits became ill when we not only seperated ourselves from the wild and wilderness, but began to destroy it.

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:14 AM

Why do so many people believe that human consciousness is unique... and that it is separate from the chemical reactions of the brain?

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:14 AM

Thats pretty organized religion-y, but it acknowledges that spirituality, I think.

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:14 AM

I like this Michael Shapiro. I want to have lunch with him and my own TAWK!

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:14 AM

yes I like that like in I <3 Huckabees.. there are smaller cracks.. and even smaller connections.. we are all connected down to the last molecule

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:14 AM

My mother in law, often.

C�

CHRZA 💋Jul 24, 2013, 1:14 AM

perspective

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:15 AM

source of suffering for me - attachment to wanting something different than what IS.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:15 AM

of each of our own suffering? mine is probably yeah feeling "lost" or like I am wandering through life a lot.. now I just try to enjoy the journey lol

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:15 AM

Always...lunch that is...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:15 AM★ Spotlighted

The common denominator seems to be...self-imposed. The self-imposed nature of the suffering. Ouch.

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:16 AM

Justice and equality are MORE important than "connection."

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:16 AM

And that explains why mother in law is often a source of suffering.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:16 AM

well even think of the natives and their connection to nature and the land.. as one good example.. they believed everything was intertwined and that every thing we did had an impact

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:16 AM

Loved? Nature is impartial.

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:17 AM

Belonging...this word has been jangling in my psyche for months. YES.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:17 AM★ Spotlighted

I agree Rebecca, we are all so hard on ourselves aren't we?

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:17 AM

National anxiety is created by media and psychotropic medication.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:18 AM

@ Rachel: Yeah. I think women even more than men (but that's another Tawk). But things aren't SO BAD if I can give myself a break!

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:18 AM

You mean if we confront reality, Michael?

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

@Brad yes I think those in power and org. religion definitely sort of makes US feel to blame for the failures of the country.. we have become self-deprecating and defeatist because of this I believe

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:18 AM

Nice of Micheal to condemn anyone with an independent spirit.

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 1:18 AM★ Spotlighted

Michael - this thing bigger than us.. does it matter if it's real or that we are just connected to that sense of The Other.

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:18 AM

Isn't that just a nice way of saying we're fundamentally tribal?

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:19 AM

exactly Rebecca! :) What I find is thinking of how I would react to someone I love messing up or doing something foolish and I would forgive them right away so why should it be different for ourselves and yes women do have that problem more I think.

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:20 AM

God is the lack of adequate investigation, knowledge, or comprehension.

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:21 AM

@Brad I don't think so. I thin God is the notion that not everything can be investigated, known or comprehended.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:21 AM

Even if God does exist somehow somewhere.. I believe he would WANT people to investigate and make an informed decision he wouldn't want blind followers religious org.'s want that

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:21 AM

Belief is the key to predictive programming.

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:22 AM

hang on,how do you know that god is a he? you only know that cos of what someone has told you

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:22 AM

Wither way org. religion has made it harder for people to find their OWN personal spiritual path.. they make more money w people in the seats why tell them that you can be just spiritual maybe even more so outside churches?

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:22 AM

The closest you'll come to a god is Nature - and Nature, Gaia, would be good to worship.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:22 AM

haha he/she/it/alien?

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:22 AM

The "100 Monkeys" theory hasn't worked out that well for humans.

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:22 AM

No to destroy.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:22 AM

I have a theory he's The Doctor haha!

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:23 AM

Not

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:23 AM

The purpose of "civilization" is to allow the smallest group of people to accumulate the largest amount of power in the shortest amount of time.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:24 AM

I don't know I think all religions obviously have good ideas and good things but when they try to scare people into these beliefs that's where I have a problem we could learn from any and all spiritual discussion and religions I bet

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:24 AM

Michael, you make such a lovely point. We WANT SO MUCH to be connected, but capitalism and resource consumption force us to disconnect in order to use resources and people to make systems run...so we're left disconnected and empty.

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:25 AM★ Spotlighted

The government want to create false reality through fabricated experiences.

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:25 AM

all of today's religions all come from one ancient religion. so all the "gods" are one and the same person

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:26 AM★ Spotlighted

@Rachel McDonnell: Religion is a 10% scam.

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:26 AM

Man, this place is cynics r us, isn't it?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:26 AM

@ Lucy - and some say God is me and God is you. So it all comes from us in the first place.

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:27 AM

exactly Rebecca

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:28 AM

and as my fav comedian once said "we are all one"

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:29 AM

@ Brad: Thus, reality TV!

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:29 AM

Have you tried it @Michael?

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:29 AM

@Lucy yes I often thought well hell we are all probably worshiping the SAME God but we are so closed off from other cultures we wouldn't even accept that as reality..

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:29 AM

If I had 10% of the wealth of everyone who agrees with me, I could have my own city in Italy too.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:30 AM★ Spotlighted

yes I know organized religion is a scam and also just watched the zeitgeist movie a while back. Still wrapping my brain around that one.. but either way I believe in something far greater than ourselves even if it is connection like Michael said here

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:31 AM

As someone whos tried just about every psychedelic I find that Interesting, but I have doubts.

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:31 AM

The U.S. military calls "far-seeing" by the name "remote viewing."

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:31 AM

i've tried telepathy before - its pretty easy to do,and i did it without any drugs. scared the poop outta me when it did work tho! lol

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

@ Rachel: That's the way I've come to be able to talk to people about religion. I just say to myself "It's all the same thing. It's all the same."

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:31 AM

that's awesome Michael! :) This is like sometimes when I swear I can hear what my best friend is thinking or my family.. and I'll ask them did u say this and they say no but I was thinking it very cool

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:32 AM

its like talking to yourself. not only do you get the answer you want,but you get the best one.

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:32 AM

Sounds like Michael was an ideological elitist.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:32 AM★ Spotlighted

@Rebecca it really is all the same and if people looked into their hearts they would see this. but when money is introduced into religion I fear it becomes far too corrupt and people are lied to and frightened by those "leading" sermons..

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:33 AM

Not necessarily exploited - it can be fulfilled by religion.

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:33 AM

i should say so Jordan. its what keeps the people flocking to a religeon

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:33 AM

There is no "need for connection." It is a realization that we are ALREADY connected that is missing.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

Rachel, I think it is worse even than money - it's our reptilian-brain tribalism that we can't seem to evolve out of!

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:34 AM

fair point Brad.. guess that was my own fruedian slip.. lol. I NEED to realize we are already connected lol. fair point.

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:34 AM

I think everybody is equating all religion with Jimmy Swaggart, except the shamanistic ones. (As if there has never been a problem with psychic medicine or other fake shamanistic practices)

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:35 AM

david,i'm not

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:35 AM

Only those who see themselves as disconnected and superior, would consider taking innocent life.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:35 AM

@Rebecca yes the "us" vs. "them" mentality needs to stop before our world can ever united

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:35 AM

Thats what it sounds like - "Religion is exploiting our need for connection." How about it's fulfilling our need for connection sometimes?

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:36 AM

My mother became "religious" after her father died, not because of a spiritual component, but because the Jewish traditions effectively mandated a community around her, and it made her feel not alone.

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:37 AM

oh my god!! :-O JB swore!!!!

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:37 AM★ Spotlighted

Allowing psychopaths to govern or lead religious movements indicates our species is NOT mature.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:37 AM★ Spotlighted

@Michael I would agree in part to that, I think corrupt people have been taught those behaviors and have learned that they rarely get punished for bad actions so nothing forces them to change or own up to their harmful behavior

Lucy DyerJul 24, 2013, 1:38 AM

well i see a little humour i not gonna get me anywhere,so ill go and leave you guys to it.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:38 AM

it all goes back to parenting.. I agree whole heartedly.. psychopaths are a perfect example of that :/

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:38 AM

@David, as you and I both know - and Jordan too, most Judaism is cultural, not religious per se.

Durable BradJul 24, 2013, 1:38 AM

Only the comments I've made that border on cliché have received any thumbs-up response. Goodbye.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:39 AM

I don't think EVERYONE feels that way tho Michael.. I think personality also plays a role in why people become corrupt

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:39 AM★ Spotlighted

At a certain point, though, Michael, children MUST grow up, must take responsibility for their own actions. I think the problem we have is the stagnation point that most people reach; the HAVE TO remain disconnected for industrial civilization towork

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:40 AM★ Spotlighted

I'm a yeshiva boy. We grew up orthodox, and my mother hated it until that point. It was the organized religion aspect of it that was initially repellant, and then attractive to her.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:40 AM★ Spotlighted

ok THAT agree with Michael. So that immaturity is either shown as selfish behavior or self-deprecating behaviors.. very interesting.

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:41 AM★ Spotlighted

Man may try to organize 'religion' but religion and spirituality are not easily organized, categorized or measured.

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:41 AM

" You must do this because God said so!" Bad, right? Except in that case, God said "Everyone must go visit this person. She must be greeted. She must be taken care of."

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:44 AM★ Spotlighted

I guess it goes back to tribalism, right?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:44 AM

The hope that I have right now is that we ARE maturing, that we've reached a critical juncture. It seems that our ways of relation to each other are changing. Or is that just me?

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:45 AM

@Rebecca I think we don't hold these corrupt people accountable because somewhere somehow we have begun to look up to them. teach your kids to be successful means making lots of money, not matter who u step on to get there.

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:45 AM★ Spotlighted

I did a dissertation on LSD psychotherapy. Trying to capture a psychedelic experience is like trying to capture a religious experience - transitory. You can look through the door, but . . .

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:45 AM

which is not the American Dream we should be teaching :/

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:47 AM★ Spotlighted

I have never been a skywatcher, but I sort of hope the aliens do make themselves known, so we'll have to accept that we (humans) don't know much and we'd better stick together.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:47 AM

@Rick maybe there is a difference between man-made psychedelics and natural ones? just spit balling tho :)

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:47 AM

I don't differentiate between the two - I've done it all

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:48 AM

It's the experience, not the substance.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:48 AM

@Rebecca I doubt we would see any *good* aliens in our lifetime.. they'd know we'd just try to shot them out of the sky... which we would without even questioning I believe :/

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:49 AM

@ Rachel: I worry about that, too...

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:49 AM

we are so destructive to everyone and everything is just makes me so sad

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:49 AM★ Spotlighted

We'be spent lots of time here talki about how we are seeking connections to each other, and how we Re interconnected. That sounds very tribalistic. I don't mean that as a pejorative.

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:49 AM★ Spotlighted

Don't worry, Yoko

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:49 AM

Ha ha, thanks, Rick!

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:50 AM★ Spotlighted

I think that's too large for humans to handle. That's why I'm talking about tribalism. You can call it a community, also.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

"Everything else is Bullshit." That's my new daily affirmation! :D

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:52 AM★ Spotlighted

I don't know if connection with each other is what we lack. It's connection with every thing else that, I think, defines spirituality,

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:53 AM

Well, I was due for a deep thought. I'll see you again in a couple of months...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:53 AM

@ David: That's what I think about God or whatever it is that is in everyone and everything. It's too big, and that's scary, but making up a religion to contain it doesn't make it any less big.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:53 AM

we are connected to materialism more than anything else

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:54 AM★ Spotlighted

But can't that everyone-ness really take you away from connectedness? If everybody means the same thing to you then there can't be any specialness.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:55 AM★ Spotlighted

point is, we can never be 100% sure about anything.. not really. We just need to all accept that and try to live well with uncertainty plus most of the best things in life come as surprises what are we all so scared of?

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:55 AM

That was a lot of -nesses, but hopefully that made some sense.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:55 AM★ Spotlighted

ooh very deep David. :)

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 1:55 AM★ Spotlighted

the natural world @J

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:56 AM★ Spotlighted

Im on a roll.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:56 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes, Jordan! That's the head-exploding realization that people will have to come to! The universe is BIG and we're ALL HERE.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:58 AM★ Spotlighted

It may not matter what actually is and what actually HAS HAPPENED - it really only matters what we are willing to accept. That's the crucial difference between mind-opening and mind-closing.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 1:58 AM★ Spotlighted

if anyone hasn't seen "I Love Huckabees" watch it! It goes so deep into these existential topics and how everything is interconnected even love and hate VERY interesting movie

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 1:58 AM★ Spotlighted

That's not what I'm saying. If I view everybody as one equivalent cog in the same interconnected ness - that is, I don't deal with a smaller community but only look at humanity as a whole, I have no ability to actually connect.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 1:59 AM★ Spotlighted

@ Rachel: I love that movie! It is so deeply funny to me that I can't even find words!

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Jordan, let go

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

I need to connect, but with a smaller community - a tribe, if you will - I'm order to actually have a sense of belonging. Otherwise, I'm just adrift in a sea of everything. I'm still alone, just aware of lots of other stuff.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

@Rebecca I watch it once a year and get something new from it every time.. AMAZING movie! :)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 2:00 AM

@ David: It's something you have to work through. Working out to the big picture and then back in to your relation to it. It's a constructive process.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

*group hug* for Jordan lol.

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 2:02 AM

You are connected, whether you like it or not

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 2:02 AM

Probably, but that doesn't feed the desire for belonging.

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 2:03 AM

don't you want to stand out instead? :)

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 2:04 AM

I desire, therefore I am?

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 2:04 AM

haha.

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 2:04 AM

To some extent, yeah!

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 2:04 AM

yes very fun. Thanks you two. Very interesting. :)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 2:05 AM

I've been reading that human bacteria outnumber our body cells by 10:1. To be healthy, we have to treat our bodies as a living system. We have been neglecting the system for a long time, hence the rash of disorders. It's an apt metaphor.

Rick RosnerJul 24, 2013, 2:05 AM

Thanks guys

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 2:05 AM

david watch that movie as they say there is a constant push and pull toward and away from awareness and connectedness it's the human condition

David KaufmanJul 24, 2013, 2:05 AM

So we should start bugging you about getting married and why you don't call?

Anyus GrassoJul 24, 2013, 2:05 AM

Well this was quite fascinating. I was so focused on reading that I didn't talk at all. Amazing Tawk with amazing questions and mindblowing answers!

Rachel McDonnellJul 24, 2013, 2:06 AM

bye thanks again guys. :)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerJul 24, 2013, 2:07 AM

Thank you!

Kelly CarlinJul 24, 2013, 4:48 AM

Wish I could have stayed longer. I really do want to take you out to lunch Michael.

Jordan SudyJul 26, 2013, 12:10 AM

This was a great one!

Antonio jezterJul 30, 2013, 5:33 PM

jkkkk

Lucy DyerAug 1, 2013, 1:10 AM

so sorry i'm late!! did i miss anything? :-)