Jordan Birnbaum

Host

Spiritual Illness II - The Shaman Strikes Back

Nov 8, 2013·32 visitors

Michael Shapiro

Cohost

Stage· 258 messages

Nov 8, 2013

Resident Tawkers brainiac and spirit guide Michael Shapiro returns to provide an overview to the emerging spiritual movements throughout the Western hemisphere.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

Professor Shapiro, I presume?

Michael Shapiro · 2:00 AM

It is I

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

Well all right!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

welcome back

Michael Shapiro · 2:00 AM

Indeed, Jordan Birnbaum, indeed it is all right.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

lol starting already?

Michael Shapiro · 2:00 AM

Thanks! I'm happy to be invited back.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“hey there you two!!! :-)”

Michael Shapiro · 2:01 AM

Hi Lucy! Rick, never.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

good to see you Lucy

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Back from the spirit world?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

OK -so in preparing for tonight, I went back and read our first Tawk. You?

Michael Shapiro · 2:01 AM

I remember it like it was yesterday.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

so I feel like we spent a lot of time on defining spirituality and identifying the roots of illness...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

and then we totally rushed through the most interesting part of the Tawk, which was your personal experiences with, well, a lot of things...

Michael Shapiro · 2:02 AM

Yes, I've had some crazy rides.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Hi, guys!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

there she is!

Michael Shapiro · 2:03 AM

Hi Rebecca!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

OK - so why don't we start there. You were raised how, religiously and scientifically?

Michael Shapiro · 2:03 AM

I grew up on the East Coast, in a middle class Jewish household--like a lot of Jews, we didn't practice the religion much.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

yeah, that's kind of our thing

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

two nights a year

Michael Shapiro · 2:04 AM

I went to college as a pre veterinary med student, steeped in science and rationalism.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Let the games begin!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

hey bud

Michael Shapiro · 2:04 AM

I firmly believed that if something could not be empirically shown, that it had no legitimacy.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

your dad is a vet, right?

Michael Shapiro · 2:05 AM

Not that it couldn't be true, but without a method for repeating and observing it, it was essentially not worth discussing. It was mere superstition, the cause of so much suffering.

Michael Shapiro · 2:05 AM

Yes, my dad is a vet, and he, too, is über-rationalistic.

Michael Shapiro · 2:05 AM

Amazed that I know the keystroke for the umlaut?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

me too!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

was just commenting on that!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“My Father was Demosthenes. I never could figure out what he was saying.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:06 AM

I had always hoped for some way of looking through the illusion of 3D reality, the consensual dream we're all sharing. But science offered no framework, and religion was pretty well bankrupt.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:07 AM

so we're saying that you were raised in a scientific, non-religious home, and were invulnerable to any hokum ideas that could not be tangibly measured.

Michael Shapiro · 2:07 AM

Spot on.

Michael Shapiro · 2:07 AM

The fact that religion had become so toxic added to my aversion to any sort of fooferaugh.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:07 AM

Fooferaugh is my new favorite word.

Michael Shapiro · 2:07 AM

That's how it is with a lot of us, I imagine, at least among my friends.

Michael Shapiro · 2:08 AM

Use it often and loudly.

Michael Shapiro · 2:08 AM

I'd read quite a bit in Buddhism, practiced meditation, but never thought of it as a "spiritual" practice.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

OK -so with this as your background, some discoveries led you to an incredible course change.

Michael Shapiro · 2:09 AM

Yes. I'd had intimations that the world is not as it seems to our senses. Stuff all of us have to one degree or another.

Michael Shapiro · 2:09 AM

But nothing concrete enough to change my worldview.

Michael Shapiro · 2:09 AM

Then in about 2000, I drank ayahuasca.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

timeout -you're going too fast

Michael Shapiro · 2:09 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

first answer this:

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“What IS the keystroke for the Umlaut???”

Michael Shapiro · 2:10 AM

alt+u then u

Michael Shapiro · 2:10 AM

on a Mac.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:10 AM

OK - so you just flew past that little thing known as "Buddhism" - can we Tawk about it for a second?

Michael Shapiro · 2:10 AM

Yes, surely.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

So, give me the Idiot's Guide to the Cliff Notes on Buddhism.

Michael Shapiro · 2:11 AM

No problem. :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

i thought you'd find that easy

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“Cliff Notes? is he local?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

no Lucy, I'm just not as smart as him

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:12 AM

Strawberry Fields Forever?

Michael Shapiro · 2:12 AM

Buddhism is the idea that suffering is a result of delusion--the false belief that phenomenal reality has any inherent being. Our attachments and aversions are what create suffering, therefore, and not "external conditions," which do not inherently .

Michael Shapiro · 2:12 AM

exist.

Michael Shapiro · 2:12 AM

Buddhism is not so much a belief system as it is a technology or method for realizing this truth.

Michael Shapiro · 2:13 AM

That's what meditation does, if you keep at it for lifetime after lifetime.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:13 AM

so "phenomenal reality has any inherent being." expand, please.

Michael Shapiro · 2:13 AM

In Buddhism this is called "emptiness." You can understand it with a simple thought exercise.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Did he say medication or meditation makes you think this way?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

lol

Michael Shapiro · 2:14 AM

Imagine a rock. Where is the center of the rock?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

in the middle

Michael Shapiro · 2:14 AM

Right. Where's that?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

in the center.

Michael Shapiro · 2:14 AM

Keep going. Increase the magnification.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

it's infinite, right?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“It's mostly air. Like everything else.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:15 AM

Right. You can, like a fractal, keep going and going. As you do, new realities open up. If you keep going, eventually you get to the realization that there is no center.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“My brain is empty. I am Buddha. And an imbecile.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:15 AM

This is borne out by quantum physics. At the subatomic level, all reality is just space.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

OK -I get that, I'm with you.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Everything is nothing.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:16 AM

How, then, do we construct this reality we all agree to accept as "real?"

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

OK! I get it! Good job, man!

Michael Shapiro · 2:16 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

you should teach or something

Michael Shapiro · 2:16 AM

Cliffs notes for dummies!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

yea - a new biz opportunity for us!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“(hi everyone! :) )”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

there she is!

Michael Shapiro · 2:17 AM

So, starting from this idea of emptiness, all reality is a construction--one that is codependent upon and co-originates with the observer.

Michael Shapiro · 2:17 AM

Hi Rachel!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

So reality isn't real. What are we then to do about it?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Why do I feel like I'm getting second-hand stoned as I'm listening to this?”

Michael Shapiro · 2:18 AM

The delusion Buddhism seeks to reveal is that the reality we experience is concrete, absolute or universal in some way.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Nope: It's all about mutually accepted delusion.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:18 AM

It's not. Believing in this reality is much like believing in a dream or a movie; they are equally empty.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“"6 X 7" = the meaning of life,the universe and everything :-)”

Michael Shapiro · 2:19 AM

That's not to say the don't exist, of course. They do.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

lucy what does that mean?

Michael Shapiro · 2:19 AM

But they are constructions.

Michael Shapiro · 2:19 AM

I believe 6X7 is 42, no?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

wow, you really are smart

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

but I thought she was talking about some cool numerology thing.

Michael Shapiro · 2:20 AM

Nah. Just read a lot of Douglas Adams because I had no friends in high school

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

OK back on point

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

So, did you study this befoire, during, after you encountered Ayashuasca?

Michael Shapiro · 2:21 AM

Yes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

did Buddhism make you more open minded to it?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Thank goodness I only practice Voodoo--it's so much simpler!”

Michael Shapiro · 2:22 AM

I'd read a lot of Buddhism and done meditation and yoga, but a lot of the ideas were just that--ideas. They were concepts that I could rationally understand, but I didn't experience them. I did a little bit with hallucinogens in college ...

Michael Shapiro · 2:22 AM

who didn't amiright?? But even these only gave me glimpses.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:22 AM

mushrooms are pretty common in college

Michael Shapiro · 2:23 AM

Mushrooms are powerful plants--they've been used for spiritual purposes for centuries. But they're nothing compared with ayahuasca.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Psychedelics: all roads lead to Rome - but they don't get you a pass across the Rubicon. That requires something else again.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“SHROOOMMMSSSS!!! mmm 5grms!”

Michael Shapiro · 2:23 AM

Excuse me, fungi.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“mushrooms were FUN”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

OK mushroom party people, settle down. lol

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

so what were the circumstances that led you to Ayahuasca?

Michael Shapiro · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“ok, just answered my questions about any substances being involved in the "spiritual awakening"”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“With shrooms you burp in technicolor.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I'll have a pizza with the extra large, special mushrooms please”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

you guys are on fire

Michael Shapiro · 2:25 AM

Seth, I'll come to this point later--a lot of people have a similar reaction to the mention of plant substances: that using them undermines the idea that any real spiritual shifts happen. They're just hallucinations.

Michael Shapiro · 2:25 AM

So goes that argument.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:25 AM

Because unlike shrooms, it's not as though Ayahuasca is widespread on most college campuses...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:26 AM

so what led you there?

Michael Shapiro · 2:26 AM

That would not be a college I'd like to attend.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:26 AM

You wouldn't want ayahuasca on campus?

Michael Shapiro · 2:26 AM

In Hawaii there's a large community of people who have been using aya (for short) for years. I connected with some of them and was interested to try it.

Michael Shapiro · 2:27 AM

No. It's very powerful. Not the sort of thing you'd want kids messing around with.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Ayaha what....God Bless You”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

got it. so were you nervous?

Michael Shapiro · 2:27 AM

The first time, curious. The second time, terrified, because I then knew what I was getting myself into.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

hmm

Michael Shapiro · 2:28 AM

Let me explain what it is for those who don't know.

Michael Shapiro · 2:28 AM

The name "ayahuasca" is a Quechua word meaning "vine of the dead." It's been used in the upper Amazon for at least 2,000 years for a variety of purposes, mostly for healing.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“i'm already scared.. vine of the dead? *shudders* lol”

Michael Shapiro · 2:29 AM

It's a combination of two plants, either of which by itself has no effect whatever. But when combined, they form an incredibly complex and powerful psychopharmaceutical.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

available at your local CVS?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“little shop of horrors plant?”

Michael Shapiro · 2:30 AM

When you ingest it, you are given access to a dimension of experience not usually available to us. Kind of like putting on scuba gear and going for a dive, only into what I'll call, as shorthand, the spirit world.

Michael Shapiro · 2:31 AM

It's immensely beautiful. But also harrowing. You have to confront your own darkest self--the process involves ego-destrruction as part of an emotional and psychological cleansing and reprogramming.

Michael Shapiro · 2:31 AM

And it usually involves righteous vomiting.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:31 AM

and there is a shaman leading the ceremony? what role does he / she play?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“This is all great. But shamanism is a hell of a lot more.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:32 AM

(we're getting there, Rick - hold your psychedelic horses)

Michael Shapiro · 2:32 AM

Ideally, yes, a shaman does facilitate. A shaman is a person who can access the spirit world and operate within it. Usually, but not always, to heal.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:32 AM

so let's get the idiot's guide to the cliff notes of the spirit world. what is it?

Michael Shapiro · 2:33 AM

I have no idea.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

what did you experience?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“You can never describe the essence of this kind of experience in dry scientific terms. Try to capture it and you lose it.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

You, who quoted Strawberry Fields Forever?

Michael Shapiro · 2:34 AM

It's different for everyone. I've since used aya about forty times, so it's difficult for me to summarize what I've experienced, but I'll give you highlights.

Michael Shapiro · 2:34 AM

Foremostly it completely upended my comfortable, rationalistic view of reality.

Michael Shapiro · 2:34 AM

It showed me the energetic architecture that subtends material reality--a sort of miraculous network of light and energy from which gross matter manifests.

Michael Shapiro · 2:35 AM

Those who understand this energetic world can manipulate it (that's how shamans heal). In the world of shamanism, the source of all illness is energetic, not physical. Sickness is evidence of an energetic imbalance.

Michael Shapiro · 2:35 AM

Restore the balance, the sickness goes.

Michael Shapiro · 2:36 AM

So, I've seen shamans literally pull black masses of shit--energetic shit--out of people's heads and chests.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“everything can be broken down to energy”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

That was a wonderfully poetic and coherent description, actually. well done.

Michael Shapiro · 2:37 AM

And I've seen plenty of disembodied, disincarnate entities: animal and plant spirits, deceased ancestors, spirit guides (turns out one of my allies is the barn owl).

Michael Shapiro · 2:37 AM

Thanks!

Michael Shapiro · 2:37 AM

All this stuff I would have rejected out of hand in 1999.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

we all have allies?

Michael Shapiro · 2:38 AM

I don't know. But the spirit world is full of entities. Some are nice. Some not so nice. It's not unlike our own world in that respect.

Michael Shapiro · 2:38 AM

In my case, I met ancestors in my family line I didn't know I had existed. They visited me and told me their stories.

Michael Shapiro · 2:38 AM

One of them in particular is looking out for me, apparently.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:39 AM

The good and bad - does that give you comfort or concern? (I'm guessing you'll say neither)

Michael Shapiro · 2:39 AM

Well, it's scary, actually.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:39 AM

I was kind of hoping that after I died I wouldn't have to deal with douchebags anymore.

Michael Shapiro · 2:40 AM

Our little 3D world is only a tiny window on a great mystery. Like the wild west, the spirit world is governed by laws I don't pretend to understand. And there are very dark entities out there. That's why it's nice to have a shaman around who knows

Michael Shapiro · 2:40 AM

how to deal with disincarnate douchebags.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Yes the after life should include being douchebag-free”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

so where are the shamans in this world?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

why aren't there more of them?

Michael Shapiro · 2:41 AM

But it's also impossibly beautiful. When you drink ayahuasca, you become telepathic--you experience an intense intersubjectivity with everyone around you, to the point where you can see their own suffering and their personal histories.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

why don't we hear about them?

Michael Shapiro · 2:41 AM

They're everywhere, actually. Not hard to find if you go looking.

Michael Shapiro · 2:42 AM

We don't hear about them because we live in a very sick and very distorted reality--one that's been cooped by consumerism and marketing. We live in a solipsis of television and mass communication.

Michael Shapiro · 2:43 AM

That has created a manufactured consensus, an impoverished reality in which we are simply worker/consumer units servicing a great machine. That's the source of so much of our anxiety, but it's hard for us to put our finger on it because it's ....

Michael Shapiro · 2:43 AM

pervasive, like the water in which a fish swims.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:43 AM

Why are we born into a reality that is so disconnected from the "spirit world?" Independent of the ills of modern-day?

Michael Shapiro · 2:44 AM

Shamans and spiritual work of the kind I'm talking about reconnect us with powerful nature energies, things that are very old but that have been lost to the developed world--though not to indigenous societies around the planet.

Michael Shapiro · 2:44 AM

I can't answer why. I can say that it is not in the interest of the powers that be for us to become independent of them.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

So a heightened spiritual awareness did not lead to the effective development of weaponry to ensure its survival...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

shamanism I mean

Michael Shapiro · 2:45 AM

It might have. Shamans are just people. Given to the same emotions as any of us. Jealousy, greed, etc.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

not survival, but thrival

Michael Shapiro · 2:46 AM

In the Amazon, unscrupulous shamans are known to take money to cause sickness in an enemy--for them, sorcery is very real.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:46 AM

God, I hope they don't make their way to NY...

Michael Shapiro · 2:46 AM

That's why Buddhism is such a useful complement to shamanic work. Because it's founded on the precept of compassion.

Michael Shapiro · 2:46 AM

They're already in NY. I can hook you up, if you like.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:46 AM

no I mean the sorcerers

Michael Shapiro · 2:47 AM

Oh, them too.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:47 AM

crap

Michael Shapiro · 2:48 AM

If you think in terms of energy, most of Western civilization is currently in the thrall of a very dark and exploitive "spirit," one that benefits a very few at the cost of our own empowerment and contentment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“J you've got other problems in NY to worry about - bad shamans are a small concern!”

Michael Shapiro · 2:48 AM

This is one of the things ayahuasca can begin to reveal: the energetic dynamics expressing themselves in material reality--as people, as sickness, as ignorance, as violence, as tyranny.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

so what do you think would happen if your experiences and enlightenment were to become widespread. What impact do you think it would have on us as a species?

Michael Shapiro · 2:49 AM

It's an excellent question.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

yeah, I'm pretty good at those

Michael Shapiro · 2:49 AM

Ayahuasca has been in use for centuries. Why, many wonder, is it making its way to Western awareness only now?

Michael Shapiro · 2:50 AM

What a lot of people believe is that ayahuasca is itself an intelligence (a belief I share). It is an evolutionary corrective that humanity desperately needs if it is to begin to care for the Earth again and stop the reckless and insane

Michael Shapiro · 2:50 AM

self-destruction in which we are all complicit.

Michael Shapiro · 2:51 AM

Reconnecting with nature as a consciousness makes destroying it that much harder. Particularly when you become aware that you are not separate from it; you are participating in that consciousness. It is collective.

Michael Shapiro · 2:51 AM

@Rick, have you heard of the origins of the Santa Claus myth?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

so the hope would be that more widespread use of aya would lead to a rapid evolution of priorities?

Michael Shapiro · 2:52 AM

Yes. That's the idea. It's part of a global spiritual choreography.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:53 AM

global spiritual choreography? That's my new favorite phrase!

Michael Shapiro · 2:53 AM

It's reached a critical point--we can no longer deny that the Earth is in trouble. And the spiritual intelligences are trying to teach us as fast as they can.

Michael Shapiro · 2:53 AM

We're slow learners, unfortunately. And of course aya, being something liberating, is illegal.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:53 AM

we'll come back to santa claus in a moment -you said aya is now making its way into the Western World. how's it doing?

Michael Shapiro · 2:54 AM

Pretty well, actually. You can find aya all over the country. And there's even one church in New Mexico, I believe, that has won exemption from drug laws to use aya as a sacrament.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:55 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Peyote churches in 1965”

Michael Shapiro · 2:55 AM

But this is only one path--ayahusca is part of a larger revival of indigenous, shamanic, animistic practices that are helping us to deprogram from the Western mode that's been dominant for oh, the past five hundred years.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:55 AM

how is that manifesting itself? movements? individuals?

Michael Shapiro · 2:56 AM

Movements are composed of individuals.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Colorado needs to legalize Aya”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:56 AM

is it on the ballot yet?

Michael Shapiro · 2:57 AM

It's interesting to note that when Allan Ginsburg went to the Amazon (and he was among the first Westerners to try it), nobody had heard of it. Now it's in movies (Wanderlust, with Jennifer Aniston comes to mind).

Michael Shapiro · 2:57 AM

For me it was the transformative experience I needed to evolve to a higher level of awareness. I doubt I would have gotten there on my own. But it's not the only way, and it's not for everyone.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

OK - here's a really good question from earlier:

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“so how does Buddahism relate these spirits to what we consider ghosts? are they the same thing? or different?”

Michael Shapiro · 2:58 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I feel that is true, Michael - I really do feel that people are trying to find something REAL, find connections again, instead of jogging on the consumer treadmill.”

Michael Shapiro · 2:58 AM

@Rebecca--I think we all know on a profound level how empty our consumerist lifestyle is. How spiritually draining. It's making that more conscious--and more painfully felt--that's the trick.

Michael Shapiro · 2:59 AM

@Rachel, "ghosts" is only a word to describe a disembodied entity.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

yeah, but that evades the question

Michael Shapiro · 2:59 AM

How so?

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

how are these entities accounted for in Buddhism?

Michael Shapiro · 3:00 AM

It depends on the strain of Buddhism you're looking at. But in Buddhism, the concept of embodied/disembodied entities is obvious--when the body dies, the spirit enters the bardo, the in-between state, and then is reborn.

Michael Shapiro · 3:01 AM

If the spirit has achieved sufficient consciousness, then rebirth is not necessary--it's a choice.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

The Bardo? That's a good name for a nightclub!

Michael Shapiro · 3:02 AM

Buddhists believe that their teachers communicate with them in both embodied and disembodied states.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“I'm just saying all energy can be broken down to good and evil, light and dark.. are we doomed to fight the darkness forever or do you think some spirits find a certain peace from that (heavy question holy cow! lol)”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:02 AM

please say there's peace at some point

Michael Shapiro · 3:02 AM

Personally I have seen some pretty interesting disembodied beings. Some are beautiful. Some are human-like. Some are terrifying. I don't know if they're "ghosts" or not.

Michael Shapiro · 3:03 AM

That's the key, Jordan. The peace that I have found in it comes from the knowledge--not just as an idea but as a lived experience--that we are part of a much larger consciousness, of which we are not usually aware

Michael Shapiro · 3:04 AM

because we are locked into the idea of ourselves.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

I mean, couldn't we have just been born in a different form that wasn't so damn mysterious?!

Michael Shapiro · 3:05 AM

Who says you haven't been? You just don't remember it. The real beauty of being human is that we have the opportunity to engage this learning in ways that other creatures don't. It's pretty special.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:05 AM

you know what, well said.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“No worries, J - our bodies are only sacks of guts.”

Michael Shapiro · 3:06 AM

I'd encourage everyone to research aya--and if it calls to you, it'll find you eventually. But try it only if you are really ready, because it takes immense courage.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

now that's what I call a DOUBLE DARE!!!!

Michael Shapiro · 3:06 AM

Red pill or blue?

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

all right, morpheus! thank you for sharing your experiences with us again.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

I could tawk about this stuff forever...

Michael Shapiro · 3:07 AM

It was fun! Thank you everyone for your open-mindedness! Not every conversation I have about this is so--gentle.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

thanks forum - you're awesome as always!

Michael Shapiro · 3:08 AM

And thank you, Jordan. You're a moderator nonpareil.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

thanks pal.

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Nothing we just tripped on some Aya...and I kind of forgot everything in between”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Thanks so much! Come back again!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Don;t tawk - do.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“thanks this was really interesting! :)”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“bye then!!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

nite all. thanks for reminding me I'm not alone.

Forum · 187

Forum· 187 comments

32 visitors

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Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 1:58 AM

is everyone sitting comfortably? no? oh well....

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

hey there you two!!! :-)

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Back from the spirit world?

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:01 AM

smooches all round!

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:02 AM

man,do you have a good....who are you again?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:02 AM★ Spotlighted

Hi, guys!

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:03 AM

hey rebecca!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:03 AM

SO happy we're on to Round 2!

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:04 AM★ Spotlighted

Let the games begin!

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:04 AM

Judaism does not preclude science, unlike

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:04 AM

Hey, Seth!

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:05 AM

Hello Rebecca, JB, and everyone else

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:05 AM★ Spotlighted

My Father was Demosthenes. I never could figure out what he was saying.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:06 AM

LOL, Rick.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:06 AM

An educated woman!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:08 AM

Well, when you have an Honors scholarship, you have to take philosophy. :P

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:08 AM

I think, therefore I suffer.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:09 AM★ Spotlighted

What IS the keystroke for the Umlaut???

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:09 AM

That's what they call Dr, Pepper in Chile.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:10 AM

*watches JB and Micheal do the moonwalk*....

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Cliff Notes? is he local?

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:12 AM

Rick already did. But rather, I want, therefore I suffer.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:12 AM

and you are smarter than me,JB....

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:12 AM

Yes

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:12 AM

i think therefore i have a brain!!

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:13 AM★ Spotlighted

Did he say medication or meditation makes you think this way?

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:14 AM★ Spotlighted

My brain is empty. I am Buddha. And an imbecile.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:15 AM★ Spotlighted

It's mostly air. Like everything else.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:15 AM★ Spotlighted

Everything is nothing.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:15 AM

is that why you can only fold any sized piece of paper 7 times?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:16 AM

"The glass is already broken"

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:16 AM

And nothing is everything

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:16 AM

Did we cover all bases :)

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:16 AM

Only society needs a shared reality.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:16 AM

I <3 Huckabees

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:16 AM★ Spotlighted

(hi everyone! :) )

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:17 AM

so long,and thanks for all the fish......

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:17 AM

Oh, Lucy, I like you EVEN MORE NOW!

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:17 AM

hi sorry I am late. ... eternally lol

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:17 AM

so it's all about perception

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:18 AM★ Spotlighted

Why do I feel like I'm getting second-hand stoned as I'm listening to this?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:18 AM★ Spotlighted

Nope: It's all about mutually accepted delusion.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:18 AM★ Spotlighted

"6 X 7" = the meaning of life,the universe and everything :-)

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:18 AM

Thanks for solving that question Lucy ^5

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:19 AM

you are most welcome Seth

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:19 AM

Oh, Jordan's not a Swoopy Frood who knows where his towel is!

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:20 AM

douglas adams is - was - a GOD!!!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:20 AM

Are you kidding? I had friends BECAUSE I read Douglas Adams in high school. Al the cool kids do it...

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:21 AM

who's douglas adams? now I feel very uncool lol

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:21 AM★ Spotlighted

Thank goodness I only practice Voodoo--it's so much simpler!

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:21 AM

he's so hip,its a wonder his bum dont fall off!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:21 AM

Snort! Seth!

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:22 AM

oh rachel,you gotta read some douglas adams!!

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:22 AM

Psychedelics: all roads lead to Rome - but you can't cross the ubicon and get in.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:22 AM

@Lucy I will check him out, apparently all the cool kids do ;)

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:22 AM★ Spotlighted

Psychedelics: all roads lead to Rome - but they don't get you a pass across the Rubicon. That requires something else again.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:22 AM★ Spotlighted

SHROOOMMMSSSS!!! mmm 5grms!

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:22 AM★ Spotlighted

ok, just answered my questions about any substances being involved in the "spiritual awakening"

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:23 AM★ Spotlighted

mushrooms were FUN

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:23 AM

Oh, now I feel left-out and uncool!

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:24 AM

you try shrooms and I'll read douglas adams Rebecca haha

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:24 AM★ Spotlighted

With shrooms you burp in technicolor.

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:24 AM★ Spotlighted

I'll have a pizza with the extra large, special mushrooms please

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:24 AM

munchoes anyone?

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:24 AM

Munchies

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:24 AM

Hahaha. It's a deal!

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:25 AM

The grass is greener on the other side

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:25 AM

these are the kinds of pacts that I look forward to making lol.. oh but only do them in a safe place.. important ;)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:25 AM

Do shrooms give you the munchies?

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:25 AM

its the shrooms...just the mere mention and we are away with faeries!! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:25 AM

I've done it all and my spirit has Flown. But they are always round trips.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:25 AM

I was too busy starring at the cool cartoonish jungle around me to eat lol

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:25 AM

My hubs says he'll trip-sit. ;)

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:26 AM

Ah, Rick you've to do the one-way trips

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:26 AM

great husband you got there :)

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:26 AM★ Spotlighted

Ayaha what....God Bless You

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:27 AM

yeah what seth said...

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:27 AM

Sorry sounded like he sneezed Lucy

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:27 AM

lol s'ok

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:28 AM★ Spotlighted

This is all great. But shamanism is a hell of a lot more.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:28 AM★ Spotlighted

i'm already scared.. vine of the dead? *shudders* lol

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:29 AM

Vine of the dead...now that sounds uplifting!

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:29 AM

So far, I had this discussion 40 years ago.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:30 AM★ Spotlighted

little shop of horrors plant?

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:30 AM

I'll pass on the vine of the dead...any shrooms left?

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:30 AM

wow that sounds interesting.. but hardcore. like flatliners??

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:31 AM

i watched a program once where this tribe - i forget where it was - ate a scorpion to get high

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:31 AM

Kind of like an exorcism. :D

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:32 AM

Smoke. Pray. Love

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:32 AM

i found my purple unicorn whilst on shrooms...just saying. ok as you were.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:32 AM

Nice, Seth.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:32 AM

Lucy, is that a euphemism?

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:33 AM

no. his name is fred and house trained

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:33 AM★ Spotlighted

You can never describe the essence of this kind of experience in dry scientific terms. Try to capture it and you lose it.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

BTW: I write a thesis on LSD psychotherapy.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

I love the Star Wars reference in the title of this tawk (just noticing now lol)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

Will he do dishes? Cause if so, he's a keeper!

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

Just how do you house train a purple unicorn Lucy?

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

@Rick I would LOVE to read that!

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

i always talk with my grandma. i smell her hairspray or perfume,and i know she's around.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

WOW, Rick. I'm very interested.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

wrote

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

when my grampy comes to visit,he's a blackbird

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:34 AM

You want my Conclusion?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:35 AM

Sure.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:35 AM

and i aint joking when i say that. i always know its them :-)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:35 AM

That's lovely, Lucy.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:36 AM★ Spotlighted

everything can be broken down to energy

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:36 AM

From what I know about Buddhism, it seems really cool and fascinating

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:36 AM

Don't try to rationalize LSD use. the experience is singular and never predictable. That is, of course, why we take it.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:37 AM

in the immortal words of Buce Lee: Don't think, feel.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:37 AM

@Lucy I have similar things that happen to me.. my Grandpa always comes in the form of an eagle or hawk.. and Jesse is there when I need him. we have alot more power than we think we do I do agree on that.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:37 AM

@ Rick: So, does it have any real use in psychotherapy?

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:37 AM

Those words were lip synced by Bruce Lee

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:38 AM

The Indians believe heavily in reincarnation

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:38 AM

how do we find our spirit guides?

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 2:38 AM

oh and i have a guardian angel,i've met her,dont know who she is tho

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:38 AM

those smart Natives... ;)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:38 AM

I read a little while ago that police (FBI) were doing undercover testing on the effects of LSD and killed an officer back in the 70s...

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:38 AM

Yes. But is not practical because it is not predictable. and therefore dangerous. Most therapists are scientists, not spirit guides.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:40 AM

I won't doubt you Michael; my husband once did a magnetic realignment for me and I immediately got rid of a migraine.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:40 AM

Make them watch reality TV

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:40 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes the after life should include being douchebag-free

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:40 AM

In your opinion, Rick, do you think therapists could be taught to guide someone through the trip in a positive way?

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:41 AM

Yes, absolutely. I experienced that at Esalen in the late 60s.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:41 AM

@Jordan maybe that's why this life is so cut throat and hard, preparing us to choose which side we will end up on.. on the other side... the epic battle between good and evil has only just begun...

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:41 AM

Probably too unpredictable Rebecca, as people react differently on the stuff

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:43 AM

But the world is different now. Or maybe it's just me, and not the world.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:43 AM

It's both, Rick.

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:43 AM

Well said Michael

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:43 AM

i want to go back.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:44 AM

"Manufactured Consensus" - that sums it up nicely! Useful phrase.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:45 AM

do they have a concept of "white light" as a shaman?

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:45 AM

that sounds very paranoid. the world just is impartial.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:46 AM

yeah but if we could learn to control energy, why would we need to make barbaric weapons of mass destruction?

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:48 AM★ Spotlighted

J you've got other problems in NY to worry about - bad shamans are a small concern!

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:49 AM

I know this is a serious topic but that reminded me of "fantasy guy" on how i met your mother http://images.wikia.com/himym/images/0/07/Fantasy_guy.png lol

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:49 AM

I've heard that said of LSD, DMT, fly agaric etc etc.

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:49 AM

Do you practice yoga?

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:49 AM

That's funny Rachel

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:50 AM

they'll all take you to the door. You may look through, but you can't pass the lintel.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:51 AM

Aldous Huxley.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 2:51 AM★ Spotlighted

so how does Buddahism relate these spirits to what we consider ghosts? are they the same thing? or different?

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:52 AM

Yes

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:53 AM

Another thing that was said before. If only everyone would experience what I've experienced . . .

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:54 AM

the last sentence should have been in quotes.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:55 AM★ Spotlighted

Peyote churches in 1965

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:55 AM★ Spotlighted

Colorado needs to legalize Aya

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:56 AM

Carlos Castaneda redux.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:57 AM

North or South Colorado? I mean, consider the secession . . .

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 2:57 AM

Lol, JB, if you say the profits will go to education, anything is doable

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:57 AM★ Spotlighted

I feel that is true, Michael - I really do feel that people are trying to find something REAL, find connections again, instead of jogging on the consumer treadmill.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 2:59 AM

I think you give people too much credit. We eat what we ourselves create.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 2:59 AM

RE: The secession: Ahem, at least it's not JUST Texas. palm to forehead.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 3:00 AM

but say so in western religion those ghosts "go to the light" are you saying that all spirits go to this same place? or you don't know, you just know that for sure some spirits stay here in another type of dimension?

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:00 AM

Despite all the so-called religiousness in America, most Americans know very little about religion

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 3:00 AM

@Rick: and we are what we eat.

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 3:00 AM

(that was my paraphrase of what I am understanding lol)

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 3:00 AM

Exactly. All those trans fats.

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 3:01 AM

Oil with air blown in it.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 3:01 AM

Seth. Man, is that so true that it hurts. Or history. People just seem to know...very little. Especially about grammar and punctuation.

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:01 AM

Don't forget the yummy GMO's

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 3:01 AM★ Spotlighted

I'm just saying all energy can be broken down to good and evil, light and dark.. are we doomed to fight the darkness forever or do you think some spirits find a certain peace from that (heavy question holy cow! lol)

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:02 AM

Rebecca the people who scored best on the religion test in America were Atheists....what does that say about the Bible Bangers

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 3:03 AM

I would laugh, but it's not funny...because an ignorant zealot is dangerous.

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:03 AM

Was any Aya involved in that statement Rebecca...that sounded pretty heavy

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 3:03 AM

Michael, your new shared reality parsed into words is, I'm sure you'd agree, problematic.

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:03 AM

Excuse me Rachel that is

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 3:04 AM

@Seth haha no.. I can get really deeply lost in my own thought very quickly lol

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:04 AM

I don't have to tell you Rebecca...there's a whole party of religious zealots

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 3:05 AM★ Spotlighted

No worries, J - our bodies are only sacks of guts.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 3:05 AM

@ Seth: Well, that's what makes it hard to laugh. :P

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 3:06 AM

Which you have . . . ?

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:07 AM

Glad you're not taking the purple pill yet Michael

Rachel McDonnellNov 8, 2013, 3:07 AM★ Spotlighted

thanks this was really interesting! :)

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 3:07 AM

yuk,what did i miss? :-/

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 3:07 AM★ Spotlighted

Don;t tawk - do.

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 3:07 AM

oh bum i missed it!! :-(

Lucy DyerNov 8, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

bye then!!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 8, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks so much! Come back again!

Rick RosnerNov 8, 2013, 3:08 AM

sans pareil

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

Nothing we just tripped on some Aya...and I kind of forgot everything in between

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:08 AM

Well done Shaman and JB

Seth HochmanNov 8, 2013, 3:09 AM

You're not JB, the NSA is always happy to join you :)