Jim Frederick

Host

Syria's Distant Witness

Dec 2, 2013·18,083 visitors

Eliot Higgins

Cohost

Stage· 128 messages

Dec 2, 2013

How did a blogger from Leicester, England single-handedly become the most influential weapons researcher of the Syrian civil war? A conversation with the man behind brown-moses.blogspot.com

Jim Frederick · 10:30 PM

Elliott. hello

Eliot Higgins · 10:31 PM

Hi Jim

Jim Frederick · 10:31 PM

Eliot, great to have you and thanks for joining, very excited to have you here

Eliot Higgins · 10:31 PM

That's no problem at all.

Jim Frederick · 10:32 PM

You are the man behind Brown Moses, a blog that has become the go-source for munitions information in the Syrian War. For people who don't know all about it, can you just give us in broad outlines how this project started?

Eliot Higgins · 10:33 PM

Back in March 2012 I started the blog as a hobby to write about things I found interesting, which at the time was the UK phone hacking scandal and the conflict in Syria.

Eliot Higgins · 10:34 PM

I thought there was a lot of information being posted online on various social media sites (Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, etc) that was being completely ignored by the mainstream media, so I wanted to take a look at that.

Eliot Higgins · 10:34 PM

To see if there was anything worth writing about.

Jim Frederick · 10:35 PM

And now, you have become the person that the media, intelligence services and private contractors go to to make sense of who has what weapons, where they come from and when they started using them. How did you develop that level of expertise so quick

Jim Frederick · 10:35 PM

★ Spotlighted from John Miles

“Nice to see Elliot doing more public discussions on Syria. Brown Moses Blog is a fantastic source on the conflict.”

Eliot Higgins · 10:36 PM

Early on I was just posting videos that were interesting, but without any real context. Eventually I asked myself the question of what arms the Syrian opposition were using.

Eliot Higgins · 10:36 PM

I went back through all those random videos, and just wrote about what I saw. If I didn't know what something was I researched it online.

Eliot Higgins · 10:37 PM

Then when the Houla Massacre occurred I realised that the people in Houla were posting videos from 4 local channels.

Eliot Higgins · 10:37 PM

So I started a collection of YouTube channels, and started checking them on a daily basis.

Eliot Higgins · 10:38 PM

And from that I began to see more and more interesting and new things that were otherwise being overlooked. For example, the first UXO evidence of cluster bombs.

Jim Frederick · 10:38 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Wow. It seems you've mastered using the internet as a powerful too for good purposes!”

Eliot Higgins · 10:38 PM

At the same time I was getting emails from various specialists and building up a network of contacts I could talk to whenever I need a bit of help.

Eliot Higgins · 10:39 PM

I also developed various skills to authenticate videos, such as geolocation.

Jim Frederick · 10:39 PM

One question I've long had: Last research I did about you, it said you monitor 300 video channels. Must be more now. But how do you do that? Do you automate in some way? You can't watch every minute of footage personally, can you?

Eliot Higgins · 10:40 PM

At this point I have about 700 channels I've subscribed to on YouTube that I check as the videos are coming in.

Eliot Higgins · 10:40 PM

It's usually pretty easy to spot videos that are going to be interesting from the Google Translated title and preview image.

Jim Frederick · 10:41 PM

★ Spotlighted from John Miles

“I think it's as much an example of the establishment media and government neglecting how useful the internet and seemingly mundane things like YouTube videos can be for information gathering.”

Eliot Higgins · 10:41 PM

So that cuts down a lot of searching time.

Eliot Higgins · 10:41 PM

After doing this for 18 months I have a pretty good idea of what's new and interesting

Jim Frederick · 10:42 PM

Why do you think you have been able to step into this breach? Isn't this what the media and intel operations are supposed to do? Why are they not doing it. (Well, covert intel might and not telling anyone) but the BBC and CNN have thousands of people

Jim Frederick · 10:42 PM

And you are one man, and you seem to have beaten them at something they think they do

Jim Frederick · 10:43 PM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“Using Google is one of the most effective skills one can possess today!”

Eliot Higgins · 10:43 PM

I get to speak to a lot of journalists, producers, activists, NGOs, etc, and they are all faced with the same two major problems, one is they don't know how to process these videos, ie verification, putting them into context, etc.

Eliot Higgins · 10:43 PM

The second issue is there's just so many of them, we're talking about around 100-300 new videos a day.

Eliot Higgins · 10:44 PM

I've been told by organisations archiving these videos there's between 250,000 and 500,000 videos from Syria that have been posted online.

Eliot Higgins · 10:44 PM

And no organisation I'm aware of has done anything to turn them into usable information, it's just a mass of unsorted videos.

Eliot Higgins · 10:45 PM

So a lot of organisations are looking into ways to make dealing with those issues a lot more straight forward in the future.

Jim Frederick · 10:46 PM

Regarding processing and verification, but you are essentially self-taught right? And one of the myths that journos like to believe about themselves is that they are great autodidacts. When you speak to them, do you get a desire to incorporate what

Jim Frederick · 10:46 PM

you know into their work, or a resistance to the new?

Jim Frederick · 10:46 PM

★ Spotlighted from John Miles

“If Elliott can process all these videos himself, I don't see why professional journalists and governments can. I suspect it might be a matter of them not being willing to make information gathering via the internet a full-time job.”

Jim Frederick · 10:46 PM

See John Miles' comment which gets at the same idea

Eliot Higgins · 10:47 PM

I'm self-taught, and it seems to me there's a lot of interest among journalists (and others) to learn these techniques. I've been invited to speak to journalism students at a number of universities here in the UK and in the US on the topic as well.

Eliot Higgins · 10:47 PM

I think there's an increasing desire for these skills to be taught, so in the future I'll be focusing on that aspect of my work, teaching people how to do it.

Eliot Higgins · 10:48 PM

Might even be writing a book on the topic (if I have time).

Jim Frederick · 10:49 PM

Let's talk a little about a related matter: Acceptance in the communities you have waded into. Do you find your open source, collaborative nature jives with media, intel and private contractors who are trying to get the same info, or is there

Jim Frederick · 10:49 PM

competition

Eliot Higgins · 10:50 PM

I've met people from all sorts of organisations, pretty much all the ones you've just mentioned, and they appreciate that this is kind of a new area.

Eliot Higgins · 10:50 PM

Private and government intelligence services have been using open source information for years, but I think the volume coming from Syria has been overwhelming

Eliot Higgins · 10:51 PM

And it's likely that Syria won't be the only conflict that produces this amount of information, so there's a great deal of interest in how to process it.

Eliot Higgins · 10:51 PM

So there's a lot of talk about online collaborative systems to deal with it.

Jim Frederick · 10:52 PM

Let's talk about applications, then: "Does it scale" is one of the main questions about any new use of technology. How do you think what you do can be scaled? And part two of my question:

Jim Frederick · 10:53 PM

Is there a business, or a wage, or some sort of compensation to you in all this. A lot of media companies now use your reporting often as their own and sometimes give you credit, sometimes not, but presumably without pay.

Jim Frederick · 10:53 PM

Is there a way to turn this into something that allows you to keep doing it, or even broaden it if that's what you want?

Jim Frederick · 10:53 PM

★ Spotlighted from Lucien Senna

“Ask him why he finds it so hard to get financial support from the institutions that use his information to their financial gain?”

Eliot Higgins · 10:54 PM

With regards to "does it scale"; part of what I do it basically just gathering data, for example the Croatian weapons story was pretty much just filling in a spreadsheet with 5 key pieces of information.

Eliot Higgins · 10:54 PM

And when you've got 1000s of videos that's potentially a huge amount of data that can be added to those videos, and from that you can see patterns and relationships.

Eliot Higgins · 10:55 PM

So at the very massive scale we have in Syria it would be possible to produce all sorts of interesting information through collaboratively tagging videos with metadata, for example.

Jim Frederick · 10:55 PM

★ Spotlighted from John Miles

“I'd imagine the media is happy someone like Elliott is around. He's a new source for stories, and that's probably all they consider him as. Contractors probably think that what he's doing means they have to do less work.”

Eliot Higgins · 10:56 PM

At the other end of things is sitting down and closely examining videos to see what stories they tell, what intelligence they are providing.

Eliot Higgins · 10:56 PM

For example, at the moment I'm working through 22 videos posted by ANNA News of "Operation Qaboon" in Damascus, June-August 2013

Eliot Higgins · 10:56 PM

That's because I want to establish exactly what was going on in that region during those dates as part of research into the August 21st chemical attack.

Eliot Higgins · 10:57 PM

As for the second question, I'm currently seeking funding for a new website, which I hope to launch next year, so I'm talking to various organisations about that.

Eliot Higgins · 10:57 PM

I'm also working on some other projects I can't detail, but they'll pay the mortgage.

Eliot Higgins · 10:58 PM

But generally speaking, for people who specialise in one very small area, it's difficult to make a living.

Jim Frederick · 10:59 PM

There's so much I want to get to, but let's bring it back to Syria for at least one question: What's your current assessment on the momentum of things. What trends have you noticed, strengthenings or weakenings? Any assess of things might turn out?

Eliot Higgins · 10:59 PM

On the funding issue, the launch of a new site called Uncoverage seeks to address that issue for investigative journalists http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/business/media/turning-to-public-to-back-investigative-journalism.html

Jim Frederick · 11:00 PM

Excellent, thanks for that link, which I think will answer some of the audiences questions for more details on the new venture.

Eliot Higgins · 11:00 PM

That's not my new site in case anyone is confused :)

Jim Frederick · 11:01 PM

Okay, then we'll get to your new site, to the degree you can talk about it, with the next question,

Eliot Higgins · 11:01 PM

I think that the Syrian government forces have really gotten their act together in the past year, but there's still a lot of war left to be fought. Personally I think this could drag on for years.

Eliot Higgins · 11:01 PM

A lot of journalists and analysts I've spoken to agree.

Eliot Higgins · 11:01 PM

I don't think the peace process is going anywhere with groups like ISIS involved either.

Jim Frederick · 11:02 PM

Thanks for that. So, to the degree you are able, can you talk a little about the new venture?

Jim Frederick · 11:02 PM

★ Spotlighted from HRI Mark

“Hi Eliot - can you tell us a bit about the new venture?”

Eliot Higgins · 11:03 PM

So the new site is pretty simple really. I know there's a lot of fellow obsessive like me who I think produce quality work on a variety of topics, not just Syria, but they don't get the same exposure I do,

Eliot Higgins · 11:04 PM

so I want to bring them together to a new site where they'll get more exposure. These are people who use the sort of open source information gathering technique I use to gather unique information.

Eliot Higgins · 11:04 PM

I'm also going to dedicate part of the site to teaching, discussing, and exploring various investigative techniques.

Eliot Higgins · 11:04 PM

So I'm spreading my knowledge in the hope other people will do the same kind of thing I 've done

Eliot Higgins · 11:05 PM

There's a whole bunch of open source information out there on all sorts of topics that no-one is really looking at. I want to change that.

Jim Frederick · 11:05 PM

Do you think it is important for you to stay independent or incorporate under your own umbrella. What you just described, it sounds like any number of media organizations, universities or intel companies would want to host that.

Jim Frederick · 11:06 PM

Is it important to you who "gets a piece of you" and who doesn't for lack of a better phrase.

Eliot Higgins · 11:06 PM

Well this is what I'm deciding at the moment, I've had offers, I'm just trying to decide what's best for moving forward

Eliot Higgins · 11:06 PM

One thing I'm strict on is being editorially independent, that's kind of the point of the site

Jim Frederick · 11:07 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Nice, Eliot! That's a brilliant setup. Collaborative efforts and crowdsourcing - particularly regarding transparency and information - make me very hopeful for the future.”

Eliot Higgins · 11:07 PM

The point of the site is giving the contributors freedom to write 5000 word essays on really obscure stuff no-one else is writing about

Eliot Higgins · 11:07 PM

There's plenty of sites provided 800-1000 words on topics everyone else is writing about anyway.

Jim Frederick · 11:08 PM

A question from Daniel Magee, to which I would aft a little: It does seem there are many parties who might like you to shut up. Have you ever felt that pressure?

Jim Frederick · 11:08 PM

★ Spotlighted from Daniel Magee

“Does Eliot ever worry that he might become a target?”

Eliot Higgins · 11:08 PM

Not really, generally just idiots on Twitter, but that's why they invented the Block button

Jim Frederick · 11:09 PM

We have some comments asking to return to your new projects. Any thoughts beyond someone simply funding it that might provide revenue?

Jim Frederick · 11:09 PM

★ Spotlighted from John Miles

“I'm intrigued about the sorts of revenue streams you're looking at for this new venture.”

Eliot Higgins · 11:10 PM

It's a bit difficult to go into too many details about funding because of the discussions I'm having about it with interested parties.

Eliot Higgins · 11:11 PM

My main concern is a fair deal for the contributors, they want their work read, so I want to make sure there's plenty of people reading it

Eliot Higgins · 11:11 PM

I've already worked with some of them in the past, and that seems to have helped them out already

Eliot Higgins · 11:11 PM

Generally these aren't people who want to become journalists, so it's not like they are treating this as step one in a career in journalism

Jim Frederick · 11:12 PM

Change of direction here: What is your day like? Do you sleep? And I ask this from 2 angles: Do you work 24/7? And: Do you think you are or will suffer from any stress disorders from all the carnage you watch?

Jim Frederick · 11:13 PM

★ Spotlighted from John Miles

“You're going to need to make it a platform by which other news distributors can license the work from the new venture then. Or something like that. Either way, it sounds interesting and I look forward to seeing how it ends up.”

Eliot Higgins · 11:13 PM

Currently my work schedule is a bit all over the place, generally I'm on my smart phone all day, checking emails, twitter, etc, for new stuff, and I'll sit down for several hours each day with my laptop and work.

Eliot Higgins · 11:14 PM

Next year I'll be renting an office, so I'll work a more normal schedule (still checking my phone constantly though)

Jim Frederick · 11:15 PM

What about the psychological impact of working on a war, day in day out, even from a remove. Do you think that has any effect on your well-being?

Jim Frederick · 11:15 PM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Unfortunately, Journalism and Science have aspects of an "Old Boy System," so being unpopular, unconnected, or not playing by the rules means your work is never seen. You are giving through research a chance to see the light!”

Eliot Higgins · 11:15 PM

I speak to a lot of people who work with the sort of graphic videos I see on a daily basis, and there's certain different kinds of people with different ways of coping (or not) with this stuff.

Eliot Higgins · 11:16 PM

For me, I think I'm very good at compartmentalising what I see, so it doesn't effect me so much

Eliot Higgins · 11:16 PM

It's not like I'm in a middle of a warzone though, I can take a break whenever I want, journalists on the ground don't get that option.

Jim Frederick · 11:18 PM

That's true, but they do often get removed from the front and several days, weeks to recharge before going in again. Sounds like you've been at this 24/7 for 20 months straight.

Eliot Higgins · 11:19 PM

Sometimes it's something as simple as turning the volume off, it creates a psychological distance from what I'm seeing.

Jim Frederick · 11:19 PM

You've described your new venture and all the ways you do work with other people in a variety of ways, but would you be willing to take partners or employees on the main Brown Moses blog or is that your thing.

Eliot Higgins · 11:20 PM

Well I've had guests posts on the Brown Moses Blog on a variety of topics, it's really always been about what I find interesting, not just Syria and weapons

Eliot Higgins · 11:20 PM

For example, I seperated all the phone hacking stuff in to another blog, where I have a regular contributor who writes amazing stuff

Eliot Higgins · 11:21 PM

But I want to roll the Brown Moses Blog into the new site I'm planning, it'll be part of that, along with the other contributors.

Jim Frederick · 11:22 PM

It seems like this style of inquiry has a number of applications. Syria and conflicts of other kinds. Phone hacking. Are there any other major stories out now that you see that are just ripe to be "Brown Moses'ed"?

Eliot Higgins · 11:22 PM

Well one person who will be contributing to the site is looking at the conflict in Nigeria using the same sorts of techniques I use.

Eliot Higgins · 11:23 PM

It's basically the same situation, with armed groups using social media to get their message out

Eliot Higgins · 11:23 PM

So the same principles I've used apply to that.

Eliot Higgins · 11:23 PM

Really there's loads of applications for the investigative techniques I've used, that's why I want to teach them to people.

Eliot Higgins · 11:23 PM

There's a big desire to learn those techniques as well from NGOs, journalists, etc.

Jim Frederick · 11:24 PM

I want to come back to one question, which I didn't follow up before: You said it is as easy as blocking on Twitter. But other than that, you have never felt

Jim Frederick · 11:25 PM

harassed, muzzled, watched or in any way pressured to maybe not put out the info you're putting out?

Eliot Higgins · 11:25 PM

Well, I don't plan to take any holidays in Russia or Iran any time soon

Eliot Higgins · 11:25 PM

But I've never experienced any pressure from any government or organisation not to publish what I'm writing

Eliot Higgins · 11:26 PM

If they did I'd probably do a blog post about it.

Jim Frederick · 11:27 PM

I think we might have only time for a couple of more questions. Other than the fact that you may have a platform now to get the venture we have discussing under way, has the spotlight you have received had any other good or ill effects?

Eliot Higgins · 11:27 PM

Well for the good I've been invited to all sorts of events I wouldn't have gone to otherwise.

Eliot Higgins · 11:28 PM

One event I thought was fantastic was Tactical Tech's Info Activism 2013 camp, which I'd recommend to any budding activist types https://camp2013.tacticaltech.org/

Eliot Higgins · 11:28 PM

I was also invited to speak at Google Ideas Conflict in a Connected World summit about my work, and that was a very valuable experience

Eliot Higgins · 11:29 PM

Met lots of very interesting people there, and the speech I gave led to the New Yorker interview, which has been very productive

Eliot Higgins · 11:29 PM

All of these events and various invites have helped build a very broad network of contacts, which is useful for my work.

Jim Frederick · 11:29 PM

And now Tawkers! The pinnacle!

Eliot Higgins · 11:29 PM

Absolutely!

Jim Frederick · 11:30 PM

Well, I do think we should wrap up. It is getting quite late for you, I think. I want to thank you for joining us and it has been a real pleasure to meet you

Jim Frederick · 11:30 PM

And thanks to everyone in the audience for their great comments and questions

Eliot Higgins · 11:30 PM

Thanks very much.

Jim Frederick · 11:31 PM

Thanks again, and we are out of here. Keep up the good work, Eliot. Very impressive stuff and I can't wait to see where you take this.

Forum · 26

Forum· 26 comments

18,083 visitors

Tawkers AdminNov 27, 2020, 10:45 AM

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Giovanni VercettiDec 2, 2020, 10:32 PM

aye baybay

John MilesDec 2, 2020, 10:32 PM★ Spotlighted

Nice to see Elliot doing more public discussions on Syria. Brown Moses Blog is a fantastic source on the conflict.

Giovanni VercettiDec 2, 2020, 10:33 PM

http://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 2, 2020, 10:37 PM★ Spotlighted

Wow. It seems you've mastered using the internet as a powerful too for good purposes!

John MilesDec 2, 2020, 10:39 PM★ Spotlighted

I think it's as much an example of the establishment media and government neglecting how useful the internet and seemingly mundane things like YouTube videos can be for information gathering.

Lucien SennaDec 2, 2020, 10:39 PM

Give Brown_Moses his true due, he may have prevented another misadventure supporting elusive mercenaries fighting Assad.

Blake IanDec 2, 2020, 10:42 PM★ Spotlighted

Using Google is one of the most effective skills one can possess today!

John MilesDec 2, 2020, 10:45 PM★ Spotlighted

If Elliott can process all these videos himself, I don't see why professional journalists and governments can. I suspect it might be a matter of them not being willing to make information gathering via the internet a full-time job.

HRI MarkDec 2, 2020, 10:47 PM★ Spotlighted

Hi Eliot - can you tell us a bit about the new venture?

Lucien SennaDec 2, 2020, 10:48 PM★ Spotlighted

Ask him why he finds it so hard to get financial support from the institutions that use his information to their financial gain?

John MilesDec 2, 2020, 10:51 PM★ Spotlighted

I'd imagine the media is happy someone like Elliott is around. He's a new source for stories, and that's probably all they consider him as. Contractors probably think that what he's doing means they have to do less work.

HRI MarkDec 2, 2020, 10:53 PM

Hey guys - we need to give each others questions thumbs up if they are to go into the debate

Daniel Magee Dec 2, 2020, 10:55 PM★ Spotlighted

Does Eliot ever worry that he might become a target?

John MilesDec 2, 2020, 11:06 PM

Eliot, sorry for spelling your name Elliott repeatedly in my questions. I just did a quick fact check and realized that, no, you did not make a typo when registering your username.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 2, 2020, 11:06 PM★ Spotlighted

Nice, Eliot! That's a brilliant setup. Collaborative efforts and crowdsourcing - particularly regarding transparency and information - make me very hopeful for the future.

John MilesDec 2, 2020, 11:08 PM★ Spotlighted

I'm intrigued about the sorts of revenue streams you're looking at for this new venture.

Mo syeDec 2, 2020, 11:10 PM

Do you think any surprises will occur in Syria that could change the world's calculations and cause reshuffling of cards?

John MilesDec 2, 2020, 11:11 PM★ Spotlighted

You're going to need to make it a platform by which other news distributors can license the work from the new venture then. Or something like that. Either way, it sounds interesting and I look forward to seeing how it ends up.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 2, 2020, 11:13 PM★ Spotlighted

Unfortunately, Journalism and Science have aspects of an "Old Boy System," so being unpopular, unconnected, or not playing by the rules means your work is never seen. You are giving through research a chance to see the light!

Alfonso VázquezDec 2, 2020, 11:13 PM

Hi, Eliot; Do you consider to have any collaborators in the near future?

Mo syeDec 2, 2020, 11:22 PM

What is your personal take on what has happened in Syria? i.e was is it a rev/conspiracy, regime vs. rebels, west vs. russia

Rebecca Westbrook TokerDec 2, 2020, 11:32 PM

Thanks for your work - and for caring enough to teach others!

Brett SnodgrassMar 10, 2021, 9:09 AM

How about we kill ISIS already

Brett SnodgrassMar 10, 2021, 9:11 AM

Syria has chemical weapons, tell them it's time to use them on #ISIS. Isis executed 220 Syrian prisoners who were no threats to them. Tell Syria to kill ISIS in each and every way possible. If you hate ISIS, you're my friend. Best regards