KJ

The Art of Bluffing

Jul 22, 2014

Blake Ian
Stage· 166 messages
Jul 22, 2014

Is bluffing ethical? When is the right time to bluff? These questions and more to be discussed...

KJ

Kenna James · 11:00 PM

Hey All! I feel like shit, but I showed up anyway.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:01 PM

Just Bluffing! Lol
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:01 PM

Ahh feining weakness already to throw me off
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:01 PM

😉
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:02 PM

how's it going my man... You at the tables right now?
KJ

Kenna James · 11:02 PM

Fair warning, I'm playing In a Live 2-5 Game while I chat!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:03 PM

Ill take that as yes
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:03 PM

2-5 game for anyone who may stumble upon this chat... The blinds are $2 and $5
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:03 PM

And is that a no limit game Mr James?
KJ

Kenna James · 11:04 PM

Of course!
KJ

Kenna James · 11:04 PM

Sry, just dragging a $200 pot.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:05 PM

Funny, I started off this session with a 3 barrel bluff.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:05 PM

No worries, stack your chips you earned them im sure
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:05 PM

nice
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:06 PM

So what was the REASON you decided to bluff
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:06 PM

Since I know you don't do anything without a reason
KJ

Kenna James · 11:06 PM

Ah, good question
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:06 PM

Was it the player? Position?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:06 PM

Limped pre flop and scary board?
KJ

Kenna James · 11:07 PM

True. Reasoning behind your actions is most important in poker.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:07 PM

And in life
KJ

Kenna James · 11:07 PM

Ha
KJ

Kenna James · 11:08 PM

So I didn't start the hand looking to make a bluff. I raised with Queen Jack in early position and got three callers.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:09 PM

There was $60 in the pot and I decided to bluff the flop because it was a very dry board. 852 no suits
KJ

Kenna James · 11:09 PM

actually there was two hearts I apologize
KJ

Kenna James · 11:10 PM

Which is important, because when he called me and the other two folding I put him on a flush draw
KJ

Kenna James · 11:10 PM

So I decided to continue my bluff on the turn. Betting have to stop hoping he would fold with only one card to come
KJ

Kenna James · 11:10 PM

That should read half his stack LOL
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:11 PM

right and he called?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:11 PM

No heart on river... All in
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:11 PM

Fold
KJ

Kenna James · 11:11 PM

Yes, he called me on the turn! Yikes!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:11 PM

So then you were thinking maybe 55?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:12 PM

Or 22
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:12 PM

But I guess not if you pulled the trigger on the river
KJ

Kenna James · 11:12 PM

he had about $150 left when the river came no heart. So I bet $100.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:12 PM

Ok questions!
KJ

Kenna James · 11:12 PM

He showed me the King Jack of hearts and folded!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:13 PM

He would have to be playing poorly to call that turn right?
KJ

Kenna James · 11:13 PM

I win the opening pot and start off winner.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:13 PM

Congrats
KJ

Kenna James · 11:13 PM

correct. He should have shoved the turn if he was going to call because it was so much of his staff.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:13 PM

Right
KJ

Kenna James · 11:13 PM

Stack!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:14 PM

So at that point I would think he is a bad player OR he has a set
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:14 PM

Ahh but no because a set he needs to raise against two hearts on the board
KJ

Kenna James · 11:14 PM

but this is how you make a profit in poker. By exploiting and weaning off of other players mistakes.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:14 PM

So nevermind
KJ

Kenna James · 11:15 PM

Winning! Lol my boo text keeps screwing up. Sry
KJ

Kenna James · 11:15 PM

Anyway, some players bluff too much, others don't bluff often enough.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:16 PM

There is an art to pulling off a successful bluff.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:16 PM

and baby bear bluffs jusssssst right
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:16 PM

I have to say
KJ

Kenna James · 11:16 PM

Lol
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:17 PM

If I told you "I didn't start off intending to bluff, I raised in eqrly position with QJ"
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:17 PM

Your response would be "that IS a bluff"
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:17 PM

Haha
KJ

Kenna James · 11:17 PM

Lol. Actually I would just say you have a wide opening hand range from early position
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:17 PM

Isn't that a very weak hand in early position?
KJ

Kenna James · 11:18 PM

Weak is relative. Depends on table composition
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:18 PM

and what is your current table composition.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:18 PM

But generally, yes idiot.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:19 PM

And since it was first hand how did you ascertain the composition so quickly
KJ

Kenna James · 11:19 PM

Lol. That was supposed to say it is not idiot! Wow
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:19 PM

it actually fit!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:20 PM

I thought you were saying generally speaking it's an idiot play haha
KJ

Kenna James · 11:20 PM

Mostly by look (an older crowd) and a few hands that I witnessed I saw mostly limping
KJ

Kenna James · 11:20 PM

Which told me it was a very passive table, looking to be exploited by aggressiveness
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:20 PM

nice so you feel pretty good at that table
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:21 PM

That's a nice place for someone like you to be
KJ

Kenna James · 11:21 PM

Yes, but then I got moved.!
KJ

Kenna James · 11:21 PM

just like in music Blake, you get in the groove, and then the song is over.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:21 PM

Haha indeed
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:22 PM

But there is always another song
KJ

Kenna James · 11:22 PM

So, did you have any questions for me regarding bluffing? I noticed you don't bluff too much.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:22 PM

that just what I want you to think! 😊
KJ

Kenna James · 11:23 PM

Touché
KJ

Kenna James · 11:24 PM

The reason I bluffed my first hand is I really had no other way to win the pot on the river.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:25 PM

But the key to bluffing successfully, is having a proper setup.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:25 PM

you winged it
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:25 PM

But you have the experience even though it's not recommended
KJ

Kenna James · 11:25 PM

Good way of putting it
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:26 PM

I can be in front of a big crowd and call an audible in my set list based on the crowd vibe
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:26 PM

But I would never advise that to someone starting out
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:26 PM

You could end up on your face
KJ

Kenna James · 11:26 PM

Exactly! Now that's talent.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:26 PM

Playing to what's in front of you or who rather, takes great skill.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:27 PM

I always loved watching Daniel play on TV
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:27 PM

For that reason
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:27 PM

He had such a skill of reading the situation and acting accordingly that he could enter any hand with any two cards and never get stuck
KJ

Kenna James · 11:27 PM

Yes. Daniel is a good reader of people and adjusts his play accordingly
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:28 PM

Yeah two pretty big strengths
KJ

Kenna James · 11:28 PM

Correct. For example, one thing you don't want to do is try to bluff the sheriff. Otherwise known as the calling station.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:28 PM

And apparently ones you posses as well
KJ

Kenna James · 11:28 PM

Thx
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:28 PM

Doyle says in super system "ya can't bluff an idiot"
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:29 PM

So true... Which is why an idiot can sometimes be a serious strength! Haha
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:29 PM

But only a hand at a time, in the long run they are left with nothing right?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:29 PM

Too many unprofitable plays
KJ

Kenna James · 11:29 PM

Lol. True. I like to say, you can't beat stupid.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:29 PM

Ha
KJ

Kenna James · 11:30 PM

To bluff a guy, he has to be a thinker or at least think logically and reasonably.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:30 PM

Which is insight to why you and I are getting bluffed and hustled all the time!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:30 PM

hmmm similar situations in business
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:30 PM

hahah
KJ

Kenna James · 11:31 PM

Which takes us to number two key to successful bluffing.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:31 PM

Took me a minute to realize that was a compliment
KJ

Kenna James · 11:31 PM

Your line of play must be logical and reasonable to your opponent.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:33 PM

It must make sense, in other words, that you have what you are representing.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:33 PM

Sorry I was just reading that a few times haha
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:33 PM

right it's gotta add up
KJ

Kenna James · 11:33 PM

It's okay, it was a deep comment
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:33 PM

but you are not telling the truth right?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:34 PM

Is that necessarily true of a bluff?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:34 PM

Is it always a lie?
KJ

Kenna James · 11:34 PM

Well, bluffing is representing something you don't have or possess
KJ

Kenna James · 11:34 PM

How do you define a lie?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:35 PM

Speaking something other than what you know is the truth
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:35 PM

Knowingly
KJ

Kenna James · 11:35 PM

Well, then I guess you have your answer.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:36 PM

OK so hmmm that seems to be the one sticking point in the poker microcosm for life theory
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:36 PM

ethics
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:37 PM

It is sort of accepted and expected that you are going to lie in a poker game
KJ

Kenna James · 11:37 PM

Those who are conscious of the fact they are bluffing, are certainly more talented then those who do it out of ignorance.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:37 PM

it can't be looked at as unethical right?
KJ

Kenna James · 11:37 PM

Well, there again, it depends on your definition of ethics.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:37 PM

Ethics is setting something up to accomplish an objective.
KJ

Kenna James · 11:38 PM

While it may not be moral, it is certainly ethical!!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:38 PM

Ah so moral may have been the word I was looking for
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:39 PM

The entire premise of poker is that you are going to try to hide information (cards) and deceive your opponent so that you gain and they lose
KJ

Kenna James · 11:39 PM

Maybe. Morals involve right, wrong, good, bad, etc.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:39 PM

So maybe it's just semantics
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:40 PM

Different games with different purposes and rules
KJ

Kenna James · 11:40 PM

I don't think it's semantical at all.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:40 PM

well I'm just trying to see where it fits in to the analogy... Since I do believe truth is always best in life
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:40 PM

but clearly truth is not always best in poker
KJ

Kenna James · 11:40 PM

Look at the business game. You buy low and sell high. Is that not in someway exploiting your buyers?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:41 PM

sure, but I never said there is anything moral about business! Haha
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:41 PM

certainly not in trading stock
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:41 PM

the service industry for instance is very different
KJ

Kenna James · 11:41 PM

Truth?! Lol what is truth but an agreed upon set of facts?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:41 PM

I provide a service you pay me... Good deal
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:42 PM

I disagree
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:42 PM

Truth is truth, beyond humans or communication or language
KJ

Kenna James · 11:42 PM

Really?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:42 PM

agreed upon set of facts is no truth
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:43 PM

Its current accepted circumstances or theory or reality
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:43 PM

That can be changed constantly
KJ

Kenna James · 11:43 PM

We'll have to save that one for other day. LOL!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:43 PM

Haha k
KJ

Kenna James · 11:43 PM

But would love to discuss that with you.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:43 PM

So weird because you and I NEVER go off on tangential conversations! 😉
KJ

Kenna James · 11:44 PM

Now Blake, is that the truth?
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:44 PM

Nope I was bluffing
KJ

Kenna James · 11:44 PM

Lol
KJ

Kenna James · 11:44 PM

See, you can do it!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:44 PM

But here is some truth, I'm gonna go catch a yoga class
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:44 PM

Take em down and let's pick this up later
KJ

Kenna James · 11:45 PM

You got it! Ommmm!!!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 11:45 PM

namaste motherfucker
KJ

Kenna James · 11:46 PM

Rofl! Enjoy grasshopper!
KJ

Kenna James · 11:46 PM

Goodnight all!
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 12:27 PM

Re-reading some of this and had a thought... It is against the rules to lie in business.
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 12:27 PM

Im not saying people don't do it obviously! - But it is not "allowed" and if you get caught you are penalized
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 12:28 PM

in poker it is within the allowable rules to lie to the people you are "doing business" with
Blake Ian

Blake Ian · 12:28 PM

Of course the rule of - if you get caught you get penalized - is still there haha