Kayt Sukel

Host

The Paradox of the Powerful Woman

Jun 5, 2014·29 visitors

Melanie Berliet

Cohost

Stage· 230 messages

Jun 5, 2014

Fox News questions whether female breadwinners are a problem. Wendy Davis, Texas gubernatorial candidate, is lambasted for leaving her kids with their Dad while attending Harvard Law. Pew Research keeps finding that society takes great issue with women who come into their own--especially if they happen to be a single Mom. What is the deal? This week, journalists Kayt Sukel and Melanie Berliet discuss the paradox of the powerful woman. What makes a woman's success worthy of such ire?

Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM

Hello hello!

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

Who, among powerful women, do you most admire and why?

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

I suspect we're having technical issues

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

Stay tuned a moment please!

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

Okay!

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

There she is!

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Not sure what happened there, people. But it was fixed with a restart!

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

Phew!

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

EVERYTHING is fixed with a restart. =)

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Yes, powerful women!

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

So true.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

So, yes, Hillary, Sheryl, Wendy Davis...

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

Those are the powerful women you most admire?

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

There are lots of powerful, interesting and intelligent women out there.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

And they seem to get a bad rap for, well, being successful. What is up with that?

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

So many!

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

I actually had the idea for this piece after I read a cover story about Wendy Davis in the New York Times magazine: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/magazine/wendy-davis.html?_r=0

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

I think it's because people have a hard time accepting anything other than the status quo. And for a long time women simply weren't "supposed to" be in power

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

people fear change!

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

until they're forced to accept it

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

Wendy Davis is running for governor in Texas. She stood up to a very messed up birth control/anti-abortion law in Texas last year in a filibuster.

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

But just as she announced her plans to run for governor, people took her story--one of a single Mom gone to Harvard Law, into a "Oh my god, she totally stepped on her family to get to the top!"

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

that's just unfair

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

Forget a strong woman pulling herself up by her bootstraps and making something of herself.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Right. How did the messed up narrative win out?

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

She was an "unnatural mother" and a "gold digger" and a woman willing to do anything to gain power. http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/17/behind-the-cover-story-robert-draper-on-wendy-davis-and-the-challenge-of-biography/

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

ughhhhh

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

It's an interesting question. Because, for me, I love the Wendy Davis story.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Did she fight back?

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

I love that she went to Harvard Law after having two kids.

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

And to do so, she had to leave the kids with her Dad while she went to school.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

me too. it's inspiring!

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

Frankly, if a man had done so, for the better of himself and his family, we'd applaud.

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

But because she did, it's a problem.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

Definitely.

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

Why is that?

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

It's interesting that we tend to shame a woman for not staying home to further her career because the underlying message is, in a way, that mothers are more important to children than fathers.

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

And once she became a lawmaker, she was criticized for not taking care of her (now grown) kids.

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

Even though, state and federal senators often leave their families behind when they go to the Capitol to legislate.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

You know, I hadn't thought about it like that.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

It does kind of slam fathers.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

Right? That just occurred to me now. It's a paradox.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

But more, I think, it's telling women that they have a place--and that place is at home, with their kids, doing what their man tells 'em to do.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

And even the title of that NY Times magazine cover story kind of plays on that -- "Can Wendy Davis Have it All?"

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

All? WTF?

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

Definitely messed up. Do you think the criticism towards powerful women comes mostly from men or from women?

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

Good question.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

As I said, Wendy did this grand filibuster last year: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/wendy-davis-filibuster/

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

Everyone loves to cite the famous Heidi/Howard study

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

Reminiscent of Ann Richards, another powerful woman that got a lot of shit here in Texas.

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

which Sheryl Sandberg mentions in Lean In.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

And now that Wendy is running for governor, she is taking it from all sides.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

They call her "Abortion Barbie" -- even made posters (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/05/27/Life-Sized-Abortion-Barbie-Posters-Welcome-Wendy-Davis-to-LA) -- and women are just as quick to criticize.

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

That's just awful

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

Ooooh, tell me more about the study.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

Because Sheryl Sandberg gets it, too. I can't tell you how many women I know that just hate her book, period.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

They haven't read it, mind you. But they hate it.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

Researchers presented students with a story of a successful entrepreneur. They told half the students that the entrepreneur's name was Heidi; they told the other half that it was Howard.

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

Howard came across as a more appealing colleague. Heidi, on the other hand, was seen as selfish and not "the type of person you would want to hire or work for." The same data with a single difference--gender--created vastly different impressions.

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

It's funny how that works.

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

It makes me think of Hillary Clinton, to be honest.

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

I think, if she had been Howard Clinton, she would be president already.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

Yes! Hilary Clinton's campaign always calls to mind wardrobe comments.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

We will never get over what women wear

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

People seem much more interested in her hair than her politics.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

Very good point, Kayt. Howard Clinton could've won

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

Definitely.

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

Which raises another point...

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

Wendy Davis takes a lot of flack for being attractive.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

Why do the women you know hate Lean In, btw? Do they provide any reasoning?

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

I liked Lean In, even though Sheryl's career isn't one I'd ever aspire to

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

It's somehow a strike against her. But good looks aren't a strike against men in power.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

Yeah, if you're not poorly dressed as a woman, you're too well dressed and asking for sex!

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

I actually read Lean In--my only criticism is that she never admits to how much help she has.

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

I want to hear one of these women say, "Okay, yes, we have a housekeeper and a nanny and this college student who comes to do homework with the kids after school."

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

I do remember her saying at one point that she's lucky to be able to afford the full-time nanny, etc., though I agree that she didn't address that enough

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

I recently read #GIRLBOSS by Sophia Amoruso, the 30-year-old founder of Nasty Gal

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

While she credits her husband for taking his share of the load, there is no mention of what it takes to pull off "leaning in."

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

http://amzn.to/1rVnWmb

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

I haven't read it! What did you think?

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

Amoruso spoke to the fact that dressing is about self expression and no one should be derided for wanting to wear whatever the hell they want to wear

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

Good point.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

It was great. It was nice to read a book by such a young successful entrepreneur

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

I related to it more in large part because she speaks my language more than Sheryl Sandberg

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

People think Steve Jobs' black turtlenecks and sandals are kinda cute. But I'm sure they hate on women who dress for comfort.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

But all of these women still get criticized, well, just for doing well.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

In fact, Fox News recently decided to have a segment on "Are female breadwinners a problem?" http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/05/04/fox-is-just-asking-are-female-breadwinners-a-pr/199162

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

So forget CEOs, cabinet members and governors--we even take issue with women bringing home the bacon!

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

That is just too ridiculous.

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

That's an embarrassment. Did you always plan to be a working mom, Kayt?

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

Or did it just happen that way?

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

I did. But I'm a weird kind of working Mom, admittedly.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

I like freelancing so I can schedule myself home when the kids come home from school.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

You work from home, right? I think that's the dream!

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

And I acknowledge that I'm very, very lucky to have that kind of flexibility.

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

But I know lots and lots of working Moms. And it seems they are always being told they are doing ti wrong.

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

It is a paradox. Be successful, but not too much. Go for the big job, but not if you have a family.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

I wonder though whether the problem is that we address gender at all! Mindy Kaling makes such a good point when she says that it's borderline offensive to be labeled "the first Indian woman to [fill in the blank]"

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

No doubt.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

Why is gender such effective click bait?

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

What I keep hearing, throughout all of this, is an undertone that women don't belong. That, by pursuing successful careers, we are bucking the system.

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

And, you know, the system doesn't do such a great job of taking care of women that don't take care of themselves.

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

I was trying to think of an industry earlier in which successful women are as revered as their successful male counterparts

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

Can you think of one?

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

Maybe music. But even there, women get classified by gender.

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

Hence the whole Neko Case thing: http://wxrt.cbslocal.com/2014/05/23/neko-case-reminds-playboy-that-she-is-more-than-jjust-a-woman-in-music/

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

I was thinking that A-list female actors and actresses seem to be equally respected. But then again, I know that women face a lot more (age/looks related) barriers in landing roles

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

What about you? Can you think of one?

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

It's tough.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

We seem to be women first and individuals second.

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

Is it possible to use the hate to our advantage?

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

For instance, Donald Trump comes to mind.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

And even the actresses get shit about work/life balance--much more so than the dudes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

Donald Trump? Explain.

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

He seems to exploit his negative attention effectively

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

He does.

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

I'm trying to think about how Wendy Davis could use such a technique.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

He is a man who is pretty widely hated. people even attack him for his orange skin and hair

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

And I'm failing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

but he always manages to keep going.

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

The difference is that he's already rich and successful. He always has a modicum of respect because of that.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

Yeah, that's a good point

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

But are rich, successful women afforded that same respect?

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

Do you ever think that you're less likely to ask for more money than a man would for the same gig?

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

I don't want to be all negative, all "America hates successful women!" but it's kind of depressing when you look at how successful women are described in the media.

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

I remember reading in Lean In that Sheryl's friend's husband advised to his attorney wife that she should "bill like a man."

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

Plenty of studies show that not only do women make less than men, but they are less likely to ask for raises/more money.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

I will say that I have hourly rates that I stick to. Period. If a client can't make that, I don't take the job.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

that really resonated with me. because i think i'm too shy sometimes in asking for what i'm owed

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

But I have no real way of knowing whether mmy rates are what they should be.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

Whether they match up with other men and women of similar experience.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

All I know is that whenever my boyfriend pushes me to ask for more money, and I do, I seem to get it.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

but I get so nervous doing so!

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

It's funny how that works.

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

But that's another cultural thing--we aren't supposed to talk about money.

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

For women, especially, it's gauce.

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

I start getting self doubt, about how I'll be viewed for potentially overvaluing myself...

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

Gauche, rather.

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

My friend Emma tackles this on her blog, http://www.wealthysinglemommy.com

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

She talks about how women should be talking more about the coin. So we can be confident in our abilities and what we deserve.

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

we should!

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

I really think we need to get more comfortable asking for more money

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

Indeed!

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

and learning how to separate that business element from our emotions

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

It's partly a cultural thing.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

I remember my Mom telling me that her parents encouraged her to go to college to find a good husband.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

The idea being, once she did, she'd stop working.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

That's what her generation was raised to believe.

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

Ah, a la Princeton Mom mantra

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

I feel like my generation got the, "Get a degree, follow your dreams, don't marry right after college--but THEN give everything up when you have kids."

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

Yes, and like I was saying earlier, people have a hard time accepting anything other than the status quo until they're forced to

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

I think a lot of the paradox of the powerful woman comes down to what we think success should be for women in general.

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

We talk about "having it all," "leaning in," "opting out," etc.

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

right. are there any such catch phrases for men?

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

We don't recognize the value of all of those paths.

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

Good question. I can't think of one!

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

It's a hard thing to realize that your gender/working life is all too often described in bumper sticker speak.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

It's kind of insulting, really.

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

here's an interesting study to consider....

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

A 2011 study published in Human Relations surveyed 60,000 full-time workers on their attitudes toward male versus female managers. Of the 46 percent of respondents who expressed a preference for their boss's gender, 72 percent said they wanted a male

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

BUT

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

People who actually had female managers did not give them lower ratings than people who had male managers.

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

That is, though many people preferred male managers in theory, in practice those gender biases did not play out.

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

That screams cultural bias to me...people saying what they think they are supposed to be saying.

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

Could be!

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

So, I guess the next question is, how do we combat this?

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

How do we get across that women in power is not a bad thing?

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

That having women in powerful positions is actually an all-around benefit to society?

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

To quote Shailene Woodley "How do we expect men to respect women or women to rise to more power when we don’t respect our queendom in the same way that men respect their kingdom?”

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

How do we stop these kind of ridiculous attacks against women who do buck the status quo?

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

I respect the queendom.

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

All interesting questions.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

I hope that more women will start doing so.

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

I would add, how do we talk about gender but at the same time spread the message that gender shouldn't matter?

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

That is a tough one.

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

It's tricky, right?

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

It's all tricky.

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

It reminds me of all the fuss over people who self identify as "feminist" or not

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

you get attacked either way!

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

And it brings me back, as the parent of a little girl, what do I teach her about optimizing her opportunities for success?

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

I wish I had answers. I do think it starts with education, like most things!

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

Indeed.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

But do you bother to emphasize female accomplishments...or is it better not to emphasize gender at all when talking about a given person and their accomplishmetn?

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

There is a whole industry of that now. All kinds of cutesy t-shirts that tell girls how they are better than boys.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

I heard two parents discussing this once. One said that she goes out of her way to point out when a film director or author is female.

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

While I suppose I see why people see a need, I think they are awful.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

the other parent said that she chose not to emphasize the gender of accomplished people, male or female

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

those t-shirts are definitely a problem

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

it feeds a gender war

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

It's tough. I will say, for science stuff, I do like to point out successful female scientists.

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

Successful women in math, engineering, etc.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

I never really got into the whole "girl power" thing

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

But maybe I'm perpetuating the problem.

Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM

I don't know! Would you say that you identify with successful female scientists more than their male counterparts?

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

It's a pendulum. I think it's important to highlight successful women--just to show kids that men and women are just as capable.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

But you can't take that pendulum too far--and then make it seem like they are the exception rather than the rule.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

I am most impressed with elegant research.

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

Regardless of the gender of the principal investigator.

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

But I want to dash the notion that science is a "boy" field.

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

Yeah, that is a crippling notion

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

how did that even get started i wonder?

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

Women are underrepresented in those fields.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

My guess is because, to be successful in academia, you have to work a lot of hours.

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

right.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

That could work against having a family--though I know a lot of women who manage to do fantastic science and have great families at the same time.

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

that makes sense.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

I don't know if we can solve this problem today, Mel!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

would you support something akin to affirmative action?

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

for women in science programs?

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

I think, though, maybe it just starts with being aware that there is a paradox. That we are really too hard on women.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

Affirmative action? Hmmmm. I don't know. I support programs that make women feel welcome.

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

I would agree with recognizing the paradox to start! women especially need to recognize that female on female bashing is destructive

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

Indeed!

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

we have to respect our queendom!

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

like men respect their kingdom!

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

So, for homework, respect the queendom! Go out and compliment a successful woman you know this week1

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

I think that's a great idea.

Melanie Berliet · 5:47 PM

A wonderful parting note!

Kayt Sukel · 5:47 PM

Indeed--I look forward to "tawking" again in two weeks!

Kayt Sukel · 5:47 PM

Until then, Melanie!

Melanie Berliet · 5:47 PM

Me too! So long for now. Please do email with any ideas for forthcoming Tawks: melanie.berliet@gmail.com

Melanie Berliet · 5:47 PM

bye Kayt! You rule, btw

Kayt Sukel · 5:47 PM

Or to info@kaytsukel.com. Thanks!

Kayt Sukel · 5:47 PM

You rule just as much!

Melanie Berliet · 5:47 PM

You are talented and smart and awesome.

Kayt Sukel · 5:47 PM

Adios!

Melanie Berliet · 5:47 PM

Kayt Sukel · 5:47 PM

(And you are intelligent and a wonderful writer)

Kayt Sukel · 5:48 PM

Not to mention awesome to talk to. =)