Jordan Birnbaum

Host

The Psychology Of Douchebaggery

Aug 9, 2013·79 visitors

Rachel McDonnell

Cohost

Stage· 218 messages

Aug 9, 2013

The vast majority of us are really good people. We don't want to hurt anyone, and generally hope for the best for all. So why are some people, especially powerful ones, such enormous jerks? Let's tawk.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

Ms. McDonnell I presume?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:05 AM

Yes. Hi Jordan. :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

Hi! I'm so excited to tawk with you finally!

Rachel McDonnell · 1:05 AM

Thank you very much! I'm happy to have been invited!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

Rachel is my Tawkers friend - we met here, and I discovered she had quite a bit of knowl;edge I find quite interesting.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

You see, I spend a disprportionate amount of my tuime wondering why so many people are such huge douchebags.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

And since Rachel is studying psychology, I thought she might have some unique insight.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:07 AM

Well many people do Jordan. I'm sure of that!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Will all those who have engaged in some form of douchebaggery at some point please raise their mouses. Confession is good for the soul. (raises one hand, then the other as well).”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

Rick, as usual is beating me to the punch

Rachel McDonnell · 1:07 AM

*raises mouse* yes we have all participated in shady behavior I'm sure once in a while.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

we will be disccusing the universal aptitude for doucehbaggery in a bit

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

But first, perhaps we should define what we consider douchebagt behavior.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

audience contributions are, as always, encouraged.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“We're all douchebags, Rick, but some of us are just ENORMOUS douchebags - this is the distinction being drawn tonight.”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:08 AM

yes definitions are important. I'd say those who are deceitful, manipulative, and selfish for sure

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

couldn't have said it better myself

Rachel McDonnell · 1:09 AM

yes exactly when your behavior effects people badly on a large scale something is wrong

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

when does selfish, deceitful, mean-spirited graduate to sociopathis and then psychopathic?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

sociopathic

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I'm just an amateur”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:10 AM

if we are talking psychopaths or sociopaths they get a thrill out of deceiving others and getting away with things

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

don't sell yourself short, Rick. You're a TREMENDOUS douchebag. (Caddyshack)

Rachel McDonnell · 1:10 AM

and many people in the higher up positions seems to attract these douchebags

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

so normal people feel guilty about being a douchebag, but socipaths do not?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:11 AM

yes exactly sociopaths do not feel guilt, shame, or love

Rachel McDonnell · 1:11 AM

they are in it to win it for themselves no matter who they may have to deceive in the process

Rachel McDonnell · 1:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Is narcissism a form of sociopathic behavior?”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:12 AM

narcissism is a particular personality trait that is usually apart of sociopathic personality disorder yes it is one piece of the puzzle

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

OK - is it fair to say that most people work with at least one sociopath?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

I of course, have worked with hundreds. I owned a nightclub, once.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“I feel like "douchebags" know what they are doing... no? - Someone who is aware and doesn't care, sort of like a politeness agnostic”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:13 AM

Well it depends on what type of work you are doing in the gen. pop. it's estimated there are 1% sociopaths and in recent studies it shows that up to 3% of high ups in organizations are sociopaths or have nearly the same traits

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

is that clinical defition of douchebag, Blake?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:14 AM

yes intelligence is a big part of what makes sociopaths so dangerous. Many sociopaths with lower I.Q. usually end up caught but those with higher I.Q. coupled with being a sociopath it is not a good mix

Rachel McDonnell · 1:15 AM

and plus the thrill seeking and risk taking.. these people are constantly trying to get away with things because they get a thrill out of it so they know what they are doing mostly I think

Rachel McDonnell · 1:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I've always thought that, Blake, but in the case of narcissists, they seem able to delude themselves to the point that they can ALWAYS justify whatever they do.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“Intelligent and driven, without a conscience. Yes, that sounds like a frightening mix indeed.”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:16 AM

narcissism is tricky because pure narcissists actually have very low self-esteem and sort of over do the grandiosity to overcompensate

Rachel McDonnell · 1:17 AM

exactly Jenn

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

OK - so before we start to look at the tendencies of sociopathic behavior in society, let's first address the question - how did they get like that?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

are douchebags born, or are they made?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:17 AM

there are a few different theories. Behaviorists look at how we learn behaviors in terms of reward and punishment

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

so if you don't get punished for being a douchebag as a kid, you'll be a douchebag as an adult?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:18 AM

ideally when we perform a good behavior we are rewarded and the opposite for punishment

Rachel McDonnell · 1:18 AM

yes in theory but we also must take into account environment and personality

Rachel McDonnell · 1:18 AM

all 3 of these things sort of "merge

Rachel McDonnell · 1:18 AM

to create our behavior

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

is personality genetic?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:19 AM

they have proven partial heredity with things like psychopathic personality disorder. Research shows it is most likely a mix of genetics and the environment you learn in

Rachel McDonnell · 1:19 AM

personality is said to be innate though; so that would be something you are born with

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

So a douchebag born into different environments may or may not stay a douchebag their entire lives?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:20 AM

exactly. several studies have proven that with the right loving and nurturing environment many times personality disorders can be avoided or at least the effects will not be so damaging

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“How about unconscious douchebaggery? If I look back, i find myself guilty . . .”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“@blake - unconscious douchebagger would be something we're all guilty of, I'm sure. It's when a person habitually acts this way that true douchebaggery is taking place - a way of life.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

OK, let's take a sec to catch up with the audience.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

I find unconscious DB to be very intriguing

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:22 AM

is it fair to hold someone accountable for unconscious behavior?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:22 AM

yeah and that is the argument do these people know they are acting this way, do they understand what their behavior is producing

Rachel McDonnell · 1:23 AM

I would say that partially people can be doing this subconsciously but i believe that looking at highly intelligent sociopaths we need to remember that they are more likely to be doing these things consciously

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:23 AM

I don't mean accountable in the "prison for murder" kind of way. I mean accountable in the "forgive your douchebag friend" kind of way.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:23 AM

more than subconsciously, unlike say those people who may not be prone to thinking about the outcomes and consequences of their behavior

Rachel McDonnell · 1:24 AM

I think that making people aware of this behavior can help I mean like with anything we can change our behaviors but first we must know we are doing wrong

Rachel McDonnell · 1:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Julie Myers

“I would think that if the parents model "douchebaggery" the child is more likely exhibit that behavior. Is that correct?”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:25 AM

that is the social psychology perspective Julie and yes like I said environment and the behavior we observe HIGHLY influences what we see as acceptable and unacceptable behavior to perform

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:26 AM

So, lobbyists for example. There's a lot of douchebaggery in that industry. Do you think these people might change if they saw the suffering they wrought?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:27 AM

I think that many of these people have been raised in an environment where it was just acceptable to push others down to get to the top and to value money over humanity and I don't know is it possible for them to change? yes. but it would take a lot

Rachel McDonnell · 1:27 AM

of work on their part.. or for them to receive punishment that would actually change their behavior

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

OK - here comes a pivot

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“Okay, so on the flip side then, are douchebags sometimes born without these sociopathic tendencies, but rather simply driven by greed and self-centeredness?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“We can never entirely avoid minor DB - it's the human condition.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

can douchebaggery be induced?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:28 AM

I believe so. I believe that our society teaches us more behaviors than many people even realize. When we live in a society that values this deceptiveness and greed than I believe more and more people will begin to follow those behaviors

Rachel McDonnell · 1:29 AM

obviously sometimes we can all be DB's Rick you are right. but many times I think that could be attributed to mood many of these BIG DBs do this for a living all day everyday

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

Does I/O psych play a role in this? Are PsyOps being performed on us at all times?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“Of course douchebaggery can be induced! The world's greatest stories involve someone doing something they would normally never do in the interest of self advancement, or sometimes even survival.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

damn straight.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:30 AM

yes I/O psychology takes all of what we just talked about and says ok how does this fit into the workplace and what they find is that douchebags tend to be attracted to the higher positions in corps. and org.s which is unsettling

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Rachel, do you think public school contributes? The social and institutional frameork seems to value "the best" and leave "the rest" craving recognition and attention.”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:32 AM

Rebecca - I absolutely believe that! We are conditioned to fall in line and the social aspect it is those who pick on the weaker ones who are more popular and revered this behavior starts very young

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Jordan, I think a lot of DB behavior comes from not seeing far enough outside your own bubble. Even "good" lobbyists are goal-oriented and just want to further their cause. That causes a lot of problems.”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:33 AM

the public school system teaches conformity and to basically be ok with whatever you are dealt.. sort of like our society I'd say..

Rachel McDonnell · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“In the higher positions you need to lead - and that sometimes results in DB.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“There are many ways to lead, Rick. You can be a ham-fisted DB and inspire fear, of you can use a more humanistic, logical and (dare I say!) loving approach and inspire RESPECT.”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:34 AM

exactly that's one issue for I-O psychologists is that leaders need a certain amount of self-esteem and confidence to get their job done properly and that can often co-mingle with the egocentric sociopathic traits it can be hard to differentiate

Rachel McDonnell · 1:34 AM

between the two

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

I also think leadership is defined by your goals. If your goal is to maximize profit, your behavior is different than if your goal is to maximize societal benefit.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:34 AM

Rebecca- there are several ways to leader.. but somehow many believe the hard fist is the only way to go in this country (many times)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“What about when you have to fire someone? Where's the humanism then?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

depends why you're firing them

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

are they the douche, or are you?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:35 AM

exactly goals are important and another thing to note is when you work for an org or corp that is known for their bad behavior many employees follow that because it is the "norm" in that org. so sometimes it can be people simply following others

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

So that brings me to 2 famous psych experiemnts I'd like to discuss.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

One is the Stanford Prison Study. You know that one, Rachel?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Julie Myers

“Agreed @Rick. I have also lead companies and it is not always clear cut. Especially if the board or owner is modeling DB behavior.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

I have DB at a board level.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:37 AM

yes vaguely sum it up, the prisoners and guards did an experiment

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

hate

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

sorry please continue

Rachel McDonnell · 1:37 AM

no I meant you sum it up lol

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

OK -this guy took a bunch of college students, and randomly assigned them to roles of either guards or prisoners.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

They moved into a prison setting for a scheduled 2 weeks to conduct the experiment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

After just a few days, the experiment had to be called off, because the guards became basically psychopathic.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:39 AM

ok yes I did read about this but not the actual study

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

And the point was that any human being in the right circumstances can become a monster. and not only fighting for survival.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:40 AM

how terrifying. I mean don't even get me started on the "authoritative" role of prison guards and police officers.. I believe those positions attract their own share of crazy but yes perfect example of how we can learn these behaviors

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“The really disturbing element of the Stanford Experiment comes into play when a person tries to truly evaluate whether or not we would have been able to do it differently. That experiment ruined some of those guys.”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:40 AM

and that study shows this in only one day terrifying! Another thing that contributes is the GROUP THINK kicks in

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

so i guess where this leads me is wondering how much of us is really us?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:41 AM

I think that is why self-monitoring and discovery is so important

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

If I were the CEO of an oil company, would I think differently about the environment?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:42 AM

we need to learn to be our own individual people in not only what we do but how we think and how we see the world.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

silly question, i realize now

Rachel McDonnell · 1:42 AM

I think you would have already had to see the world differently to BECOME a CEO of an oil company lol

Rachel McDonnell · 1:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Julie Myers

“Agreed @Rebecca. Many true leaders do not motivate through fear but inspire others through respect.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

but how hard is it to achieve the individuality and strength you describe.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Jordan, regardless of your feelings about the environment, your JOB would be another thing entirely. So your job would be to either delude yourself or quit.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“You'd never take the job in the first place, J.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

yeah, it was a stupoid question

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

solar company, though, and I'm down

Rachel McDonnell · 1:44 AM

I guess it depends on much people put value in their social lives or experiences over their own individual ones.. I think many people are scared to figure out who THEY are because in this world it seems all that matters is how well they FIT somewhere

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

So do a lot of these macro-psychological phenomena really come down to individual psychological well being? As in, individuals need to be really psychologically well to avoid these awful tendencies?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:45 AM

I think not only does our innate personality play a t part but so does how our society acts and what our society rewards we idolize those people with billions of dollars (many people do anyway) even tho they do awful things to obtain that money

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from Julie Myers

“Sometimes you have to make the tough decision to leave a lucrative position because it does not allow you to live with yourself. I did and it was one of the hardest decisions I made but looking back on it, it was the best decision I ever made.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“Why do we tend to make such a separation between life and career? If you don't feel good about what you do for a living...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

Julie, you have my respect.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

Jennifer -I hope this is where humanity is heading

Rachel McDonnell · 1:47 AM

well society is the biggest environment we interact with I believe that shapes us more than our personality traits.. but yeah I think choosing to be highly self aware in this day and age is one of the best ways to achieving less DB

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I wrote a dissertaion on Motivation to Perform. In a lab setting, a combination of reward and punishment was the most effective. For what it's worth.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

that makes me feel like we're all little worker bees

Rachel McDonnell · 1:48 AM

@Rick I agree I believe that these DBs running (ruining?) our world right now aren't being punished properly and that shouldn't stand then people walk around wondering why so many DBs are getting away with things

Rachel McDonnell · 1:48 AM

because they are not being punished properly

Rachel McDonnell · 1:48 AM

what with their incentive to stop these awful behaviors?if anything they are being rewarded

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

Yes - unequal application of justice is one of my most despised things in the world.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I worry about kids, then, (re: less DBs), because they have a lot of social interaction online and are taking in too much trolling...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

not on tawkers they aren't

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

no trolling, i mean

Rachel McDonnell · 1:50 AM

haha no trolling here but yes Rebecca that is true which is way strong parenting is really needed now days teach your kids to be independent thinkers

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Not on Tawkers, Jordan, no. :) People here have good manners AND good grammar!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

Rachel McDonnell · 1:51 AM

which is *why I type to fast sorry Rebecca on the grammar :p

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“When you can buy your way out of punishment, as a result of your fortunes amassed via chronic douchebaggery, then this problem runs much deeper that initially discussed...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

yes Jennifer - institutional douchebaggery is the worst

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“But poor spelling”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:51 AM

Jenn that is the real issue isn't it? we can all look at this problem from our individual disciplines but corruption in the ranks is what it all comes down to and how to get rid of it

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

i resend that remark rick

Rachel McDonnell · 1:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I think institutional douchebaggery starts in school, frankly. Everyone knows who the popular kids are and who the untouchables are. And the popular kids can write their own tickets socially.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

OK - so as you mentioned, Rachel, there is a high incidence of sociopathic behavior in the ranks of executive corporate america, yes?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:53 AM

yes according to the research that has been done but much more needs to be done to identify and find ways to reduce the problem

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

correlation or causation? behavioral or environmental?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:53 AM

correlation

Rachel McDonnell · 1:54 AM

environmental.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

so these DB tendencies are helpful in ascending the ranks

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

we've all experienced that at work, right?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:54 AM

they appear to be. supposedly because some of their traits overlap with what many consider to be good "leadership" skills as well as because of manipulation of coworkers and others to get ahead

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:55 AM

are there sufficient studies of leadership? can we scientifically state that one can be a good leader without being a DB?

Rachel McDonnell · 1:56 AM

oh of course!

Rachel McDonnell · 1:56 AM

first of all like the audience has said there are several types of leadership and some of those types look more at the relationship maintained among employee and leader vs. the relationship of the dictoral leader

Rachel McDonnell · 1:57 AM

secondly many leaders are NOT sociopaths they don't have that manipulative nature or deceitfulness yet they are able to be assertive and risk taking

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Matthew Rix

“I know of one, it is possible to be a good leader and a decent person too”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jeremy Naranjo

“Recently those in charge of Wall Street oversight got the authority to force admittance of wrong doing in plea bargains. This may help a lot. Previously a company could pay a settlement without admitting doing anything wrong. Wall Street is not happy”

Rachel McDonnell · 1:57 AM

which is needed in being a leader

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

@Jeremy -is there going to be a change in Wall St. accountability? That's good news.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:58 AM

Jeremy - that is huge! That's amazing! Yes I think the more these wrong doers are forced to admit wrong doing the better we will be able to protect ourselves from harmful leaders

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

Rach - what are the variables that affect moral judgments?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“re: Wall Street et al, it's only fair, right? I mean, we're all expected to be accountable for our actions, right?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jeremy Naranjo

“It looks like there is some momentum in that direction. This is a step in the right direction. Sen. Warren is keeping these issues front and center.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Julie Myers

“It is also important for the "little people" to speak up. For too long the constituents have said nothing so the politicians feel they have no accountability.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

I LOVE Elizabeth Warren!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

MY HERO SHE IS! (BERNIE SANDERS TOO)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“She is terrific.”

Rachel McDonnell · 2:01 AM

I'd say personality traits like egocentricism, the likelihood of getting caught, the consequences of getting caught and the norms of the workplace you are working for

Rachel McDonnell · 2:02 AM

we can individually be immoral or act immoral but if we know the environment we are working in IS immoral than we would know could commit an immoral act without much consequence

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

is there any way we can begin to address our desire to be immoral? Like, it doesn't mater if I don't get caught, it's still wrong? How do we get there?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jeremy Naranjo

“Yes, for a very long time they could pay a hefty fine which would be on like page five of the WSJ or some place no one would notice. For instance Moragan Chase I believe just paid 450 mil. in fines for manipulating energy markets.”

Rachel McDonnell · 2:02 AM

personality traits like lack of empathy and guilt too if you don't feel responsible for the wrong you do.. what stops you from doing it?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

Somehow Wall St.corruption ends up in every Tawk I do...I wonder why?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“We have to examine and define our immorality.”

Rachel McDonnell · 2:03 AM

hmm good question I believe that putting more focus on the other styles of leadership like strengthening relationships between employees and employers is important

Rachel McDonnell · 2:04 AM

also raising the generations after us and changing our society to value honest over wealth and greed

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

It's a lot harder to layoff employees rather than take a salary cut when you actually care about them

Rachel McDonnell · 2:04 AM

and humanity over your status in life

Rachel McDonnell · 2:04 AM

exactly. get people connected again.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

All right Rach -let's go out on a high note! How can psychology help us to battle douchebaggery?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“I think we've come full circle back to sociopathic tendencies. For most of us, our moral compass guides our behavior, with or without fear of immediate consequence to our actions. But without emotion, etc. then there is no "guide" for what is right”

Rachel McDonnell · 2:05 AM

well the more we learn about the variables that cause this behavior the more we are able to change it so obviously continued research, especially in the area of corporate corruption and the like, when talking about what is going on in the country tod

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

but Jennifer, given the right circumstances....

Rachel McDonnell · 2:05 AM

today

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jeremy Naranjo

“Because Wall Street is filled with the largest DB ever.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

bingo Jeremy

Rachel McDonnell · 2:06 AM

and also as a society and individuals just being the voice of morality, showing your actions to the world.. that no matter what you will not choose corruption or greed over your fellow man

Rachel McDonnell · 2:06 AM

it all starts inside each of us

Rachel McDonnell · 2:07 AM

agreed Wallstreet.. ugh something needs to be done

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:07 AM

Yeah, if somehow this exact group could take over, life would get much better for everyone

Rachel McDonnell · 2:07 AM

exactly and as we see there are people out there like us and the world needs more of this great energy :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:07 AM

Rachel, not surprisingly, you are amazing.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

I have a lot of confidence that you are going to make some major contributions to this field

Rachel McDonnell · 2:08 AM

aw. thank you! You are amazing as well Jordan! :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

and as you combine it with your passion for social justice, well, I actually think you might improve the world.

Rachel McDonnell · 2:09 AM

that's the plan. :) Can't do it alone though. Glad to see that others are out there fighting in their own ways too. :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

audience -I don't know how we get the most intelligent, sophisticated nuanced group of people, but thank goodness.

Rachel McDonnell · 2:09 AM

And you do a great thing here Jordan.. I love all you tawks always a joy! :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

And speaking of people who will change the world....

Rachel McDonnell · 2:09 AM

exactly amazing audience! Thanks everyone! :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:10 AM

Our own Rebecca Westbrook Toker is doing a Tawk tomorrow on emerging green technology.

Rachel McDonnell · 2:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Can we form, like, the Humanist Party or something? Take the country by storm via Tawkers?”

Rachel McDonnell · 2:10 AM

I'm in Rebecca! :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:10 AM

as you saw tonight, she's awesome, and rachel and Rachel and I BOTH LOVE HER.

Rachel McDonnell · 2:10 AM

yes I will be there tomorrow night! :)

Rachel McDonnell · 2:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Thanks, J&R!”

Rachel McDonnell · 2:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Jennifer Finnell

“Excellent perspectives, everyone! Pleasure to be here!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

http://tawke.rs/11HX9gU

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

http://tawke.rs/11HX9gU

Rachel McDonnell · 2:11 AM

Thanks again Jordan and the audience! This was fun! :)

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

there's Rebecca's link, BTW - ler's all hang in the audience tmrw.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:12 AM

Thanks all so much. And remember that you are NOT alone.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:12 AM

and if you're coming here late, please hit the "top" button in the upper left to pick this up from the beginning.

Rachel McDonnell · 1:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Adam Densky

“Damn, Sorry i missed this.........”

Forum · 102

Forum· 102 comments

79 visitors

Tawkers AdminAug 9, 2013, 1:00 AM

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Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:06 AM★ Spotlighted

Will all those who have engaged in some form of douchebaggery at some point please raise their mouses. Confession is good for the soul. (raises one hand, then the other as well).

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:08 AM★ Spotlighted

We're all douchebags, Rick, but some of us are just ENORMOUS douchebags - this is the distinction being drawn tonight.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

I'm just an amateur

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:09 AM

LOL, Rick.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:11 AM★ Spotlighted

Is narcissism a form of sociopathic behavior?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:12 AM

Ah. That fits. Thanks!

Blake IanAug 9, 2013, 1:13 AM★ Spotlighted

I feel like "douchebags" know what they are doing... no? - Someone who is aware and doesn't care, sort of like a politeness agnostic

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:14 AM★ Spotlighted

I've always thought that, Blake, but in the case of narcissists, they seem able to delude themselves to the point that they can ALWAYS justify whatever they do.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:15 AM★ Spotlighted

Intelligent and driven, without a conscience. Yes, that sounds like a frightening mix indeed.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:16 AM★ Spotlighted

How about unconscious douchebaggery? If I look back, i find myself guilty . . .

Blake IanAug 9, 2013, 1:16 AM

@Rebecca - well I guess I was posing the question, if they don't know is that a douchebag or just an ignorant prick?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:17 AM

I think it's hard to draw the line - I've known lots of ignorant pricks because I lived in the Bible Belt for 25 years!

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:17 AM★ Spotlighted

@blake - unconscious douchebagger would be something we're all guilty of, I'm sure. It's when a person habitually acts this way that true douchebaggery is taking place - a way of life.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:18 AM

Sorry - that was Rick's eloquent phrasing...

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:18 AM

To paraphrase: Are douchebags born, or is it acquired?

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:21 AM★ Spotlighted

I would think that if the parents model "douchebaggery" the child is more likely exhibit that behavior. Is that correct?

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:21 AM

Let's use the letters DB - it takes too long to spell

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:23 AM★ Spotlighted

Okay, so on the flip side then, are douchebags sometimes born without these sociopathic tendencies, but rather simply driven by greed and self-centeredness?

Blake IanAug 9, 2013, 1:24 AM

@Jennifer - HAHA That's for clearing that up!

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:25 AM★ Spotlighted

We can never entirely avoid minor DB - it's the human condition.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:26 AM

@ Rick: I think the difference is that many people try to reflect and change and do better. Most of us were shits in our early 20s, but then gained some perspective and control.

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:26 AM

Exactly @Rebecca!

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:26 AM

Lobbyists have divided loyalty - to their clients, and thrir humanity.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:27 AM

@rick - and their bank accounts...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:28 AM★ Spotlighted

Jordan, I think a lot of DB behavior comes from not seeing far enough outside your own bubble. Even "good" lobbyists are goal-oriented and just want to further their cause. That causes a lot of problems.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:29 AM★ Spotlighted

Of course douchebaggery can be induced! The world's greatest stories involve someone doing something they would normally never do in the interest of self advancement, or sometimes even survival.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:30 AM★ Spotlighted

Rachel, do you think public school contributes? The social and institutional frameork seems to value "the best" and leave "the rest" craving recognition and attention.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

In the higher positions you need to lead - and that sometimes results in DB.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:32 AM

Of course, those stories only become famous because we have such an innate attraction to bizarre behaviors...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

There are many ways to lead, Rick. You can be a ham-fisted DB and inspire fear, of you can use a more humanistic, logical and (dare I say!) loving approach and inspire RESPECT.

Tawkers AdminAug 9, 2013, 1:33 AM

UPCOMING FEATURE - "Tagging" - We see you all using the @ symbol to call out or respond to a specific user, coming soon it will "tag" that person and link to the their profile!

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:33 AM

@Rebecca - Right on!

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:34 AM★ Spotlighted

What about when you have to fire someone? Where's the humanism then?

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:35 AM★ Spotlighted

Agreed @Rebecca. Many true leaders do not motivate through fear but inspire others through respect.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:35 AM

I've led companies; it's not so clear cut.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:35 AM

Again, it's about choices. You can be a DB to insulate yourself, of you can engage with the shitty situation. It's all about choices. Who do you WANT to be?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:35 AM

I have NOT run companies, but I've taught. Sometimes you have to fail people. It sucks.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:35 AM

@J - from whose perspective?

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:36 AM★ Spotlighted

Agreed @Rick. I have also lead companies and it is not always clear cut. Especially if the board or owner is modeling DB behavior.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:36 AM

Rachel, do you think that has to do with the patriarchal (still) society we live in? Male values are traditional, and those ways of doing things are seen as "correct."

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:38 AM

I studied this experiment, too. Disturbing.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:38 AM

"I don't need to be forgiven" Pete Townsend

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:39 AM

Oh, oh... This sounds a little like "The Lorf og the Flies".

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:40 AM

Sorry "Lord of the Flies"

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:40 AM★ Spotlighted

The really disturbing element of the Stanford Experiment comes into play when a person tries to truly evaluate whether or not we would have been able to do it differently. That experiment ruined some of those guys.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:41 AM

@Jule - great comparison to Lord of the Flies!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:41 AM

I have read that one. A recent tist had to do with people playing Monopoly, but one player was given twice the money, both dice to roll, and the Rolls as opposed to the shoe playing piece.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:41 AM

The "rich" player always morphed into a DB, regardless of actual SES in real life.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:42 AM★ Spotlighted

You'd never take the job in the first place, J.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:43 AM★ Spotlighted

Jordan, regardless of your feelings about the environment, your JOB would be another thing entirely. So your job would be to either delude yourself or quit.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:44 AM

Good point, Rachel re: becoming CEO of an oil company.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:44 AM★ Spotlighted

I wrote a dissertaion on Motivation to Perform. In a lab setting, a combination of reward and punishment was the most effective. For what it's worth.

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:44 AM★ Spotlighted

Sometimes you have to make the tough decision to leave a lucrative position because it does not allow you to live with yourself. I did and it was one of the hardest decisions I made but looking back on it, it was the best decision I ever made.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:45 AM

Good for you, @J - I know that drill.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:45 AM★ Spotlighted

Why do we tend to make such a separation between life and career? If you don't feel good about what you do for a living...

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:46 AM

Sometimes the choices are hard and dictated by need to survive

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:47 AM

Thank you @Jordan.

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 1:47 AM

Interesting @Rick

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:48 AM★ Spotlighted

I worry about kids, then, (re: less DBs), because they have a lot of social interaction online and are taking in too much trolling...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:49 AM

Big Banks, Rachel. Exactly! Rewards, not punishment!

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:49 AM

Rachel, this behavior will last as long as humanity.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:50 AM★ Spotlighted

When you can buy your way out of punishment, as a result of your fortunes amassed via chronic douchebaggery, then this problem runs much deeper that initially discussed...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:50 AM★ Spotlighted

Not on Tawkers, Jordan, no. :) People here have good manners AND good grammar!

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:50 AM★ Spotlighted

But poor spelling

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:52 AM

LOL J

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:52 AM★ Spotlighted

I think institutional douchebaggery starts in school, frankly. Everyone knows who the popular kids are and who the untouchables are. And the popular kids can write their own tickets socially.

Jeremy NaranjoAug 9, 2013, 1:54 AM★ Spotlighted

Recently those in charge of Wall Street oversight got the authority to force admittance of wrong doing in plea bargains. This may help a lot. Previously a company could pay a settlement without admitting doing anything wrong. Wall Street is not happy

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 1:56 AM

How much of that corporate tendency has to do with an individual's willingness to do "whatever it takes" to climb the proverbial ladder?

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:56 AM

Can you be a great President without being a great politician?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:56 AM

VERY important, Jeremy!

Jeremy NaranjoAug 9, 2013, 1:56 AM

DB tendencies usually come with self confidence which was previously spoken of. That is why it can result in social advancement. You can achieve the same in a different corporate culture. You do have to take initiative and risk being wrong though.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:56 AM

Good point, Rick.

Matthew RixAug 9, 2013, 1:56 AM★ Spotlighted

I know of one, it is possible to be a good leader and a decent person too

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:57 AM

Unfortunately . . .

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 1:58 AM

Who? And don't tell me Pres Obama, as much as I want to love him.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 1:59 AM

Do you think that industrial values - the industrial model, which is antiquated in regard to modern corporations - can those values be overturned and replaced with something more humanistic? That seems to be the cause of institutional douchebaggery.

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

It is also important for the "little people" to speak up. For too long the constituents have said nothing so the politicians feel they have no accountability.

Jeremy NaranjoAug 9, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

It looks like there is some momentum in that direction. This is a step in the right direction. Sen. Warren is keeping these issues front and center.

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

re: Wall Street et al, it's only fair, right? I mean, we're all expected to be accountable for our actions, right?

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 2:01 AM★ Spotlighted

She is terrific.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 2:01 AM

Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, with everyone!

Jeremy NaranjoAug 9, 2013, 2:02 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes, for a very long time they could pay a hefty fine which would be on like page five of the WSJ or some place no one would notice. For instance Moragan Chase I believe just paid 450 mil. in fines for manipulating energy markets.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 2:03 AM★ Spotlighted

We have to examine and define our immorality.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 2:03 AM

Not let religious dogma do it for us

Jeremy NaranjoAug 9, 2013, 2:04 AM

Oopps any way no one notice. The idea is that an admission of guilt such that, "Chase Morgan manipulates markets pays fines." Would get negative press. Or AIG admits to laundering drug money (which they did but didn't have to admit it just pay fines)

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 2:04 AM★ Spotlighted

I think we've come full circle back to sociopathic tendencies. For most of us, our moral compass guides our behavior, with or without fear of immediate consequence to our actions. But without emotion, etc. then there is no "guide" for what is right

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 2:04 AM

I thought that was the purpose behind societal norms @Rick. :P

Jeremy NaranjoAug 9, 2013, 2:04 AM★ Spotlighted

Because Wall Street is filled with the largest DB ever.

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 2:05 AM

Societal norms? That's group insanity, sometimes.

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 2:05 AM

LOL

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 2:07 AM

Or the ELF . . .

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 2:08 AM

Oh, we'd probably break down over then gun debate, though, Jordan. :D

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 2:08 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks, J&R!

Jennifer FinnellAug 9, 2013, 2:08 AM★ Spotlighted

Excellent perspectives, everyone! Pleasure to be here!

Julie MyersAug 9, 2013, 2:08 AM

Thanks Jordan & Rachel!

Rick RosnerAug 9, 2013, 2:09 AM

You notice it's a small audience, so far

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 2:10 AM★ Spotlighted

Can we form, like, the Humanist Party or something? Take the country by storm via Tawkers?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 2:11 AM

Aww, thanks! My friend Aaron Meyers will be in the spotlight. He's sharp! You'll love it!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 9, 2013, 2:11 AM

Thanks everyone!

Adam DenskyAug 9, 2013, 3:09 AM★ Spotlighted

Damn, Sorry i missed this.........

Sara MelodyAug 10, 2014, 5:02 AM

Where's the who is here button?