Kayt Sukel

Host

The Rise of Stay-at-Home Dads

Jul 2, 2014·7,220 visitors

Melanie Berliet

Cohost

Stage· 220 messages

Jul 2, 2014

In the past 25 years, the number of men opting to stay at home with the kids has doubled. Some blame the economy, others say Dads want more active roles in child-rearing. But regardless of the take, news stories seem to suggest this is a confusing--and perhaps even alarming--trend. Melanie Berliet and Kayt Sukel discuss the growing number of stay-at-home Dads and what it may mean for family, home and feminism.

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

Hello!

Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM

Good afternoon! Kayt, perhaps you could start by explaining what the impetus was for this tawk?

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

Certainly!

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

It was a Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2014/06/05/dads-who-stay-home-because-they-want-to-has-increased-four-fold/

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

Gotta love the title: Don't Call Them Mr. Mom

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

Usually that kind of condescension is reserved for the ladies!

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

I do love it. In fact, I was wondering as I researched for this Tawk whether "Mr Mom" was now an offensive term

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

Yeah! I guess it's offensive to both sexes, really

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

But a Pew Research poll has found that the number of stay-at-home Dads has doubled in the past 25 years.

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

I believe that

Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM

Many want to chalk it up to economics, others to changes in culture.

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

The SAHD trend is popping up everywhere in pop culture, it seems.

Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM

But there seems to be an undercurrent in many of the stories about this trend that there is something off about the change.

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

Which factor do you think is mostly to account for the trend?

Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM

That is is unnatural or just not right.

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

You know, I think it's something that varies case by case

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

I know two official stay-at-home Dads.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

Right. There are definitely haters out there who think it's "weird" or unhealthy

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

(More work-at-home Dads, freelancers like me)

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

In one case, the wife had a more demanding, higher paying job. They wanted one parent to stay home and it made more sense for him to do it.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

Yeah. I read somewhere that most SAHDs do contribute income to the family unit

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

In the other case, Dad was laid off and sort of fell into the SAHD role. And is now sticking with it because he really enjoys it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

I would imagine, like the decision for a Mom to be a stay-at-home parent, there are multiple factors.

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

That reminds me of the PhD turned SAHD I read about this morning. His wife had more earning potential, so when they had a child, he stayed home: http://bit.ly/1qxVzLS

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

Timing, the economy, desire to spend more time with the kiddos.

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

There's a calculation and it is going to vary from family to family.

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

There seems to be more and more science debunking the argument that men are less fit to nurture

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Yet, we find it so odd that it might be Dad who ends up with house duty.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Definitely, plenty of Dads nurture.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

And, despite all the commercials and sitcoms that make Dads out to be house incompetent, there are a lot of Dads that are much better at the house stuff.

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

★ Spotlighted from Johnathonfall thethird

“Indeed alarming and enlightening in these times. Great change continues to unfold greatly affecting the greatest human awakening. Kids are everything.”

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

Apparently, the more time men spend as active parents, the more their testosterone levels decline.

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

Johnathonfall, why so alarming?

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

Testosterone levels vary due to environment.

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

Oh really? that I did not know!

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

Once a man has a baby, those levels drop, even if he goes back to work.

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

That's why I have you, my scientist friend!

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

Do you have a study that shows that SAHDs have lower testosterone?

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

Because I have not seen that.

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

Is it true that there are changes in the male brain in conjunction with his partner's pregnancy?

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

I do have a study. Will grab...

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

Yes, there are changes to the brain.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Oh wait. I have a study related to men who play an active role parenting (not necessarily SAHDs, though)

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

A lot of those are seen after the baby is born, once the father starts interacting with the child.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

You see changes in oxytocin, testosterone, etc.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

But you also see a lot of changes in neurochemicals in women, too.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

And it's thought that those changes occur to help foster parenting.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

Your focus changes to help keep your young safe, nurtured and healthy.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

In study, Fatherhood Leads to Drop in Testosterone: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/research/13testosterone.html

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

There is a drop in testosterone, like that article says. But I don't think anything has tracked it longitudinally and seen how long it sticks.

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

If they had, I could only imagine the headlines.

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

"Being a SAHD makes you less of a man!"

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

hahaha. Totally

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

There are all kinds of changes that happen after you have a baby.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

Form an evolutionary perspective, what is a potential explanation for the rise in SAHDs?

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

If our brains didn't change, we'd probably leave our babies by the side of the road a lot more often.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

Ah yes, gutter babies galore. Sad thought.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Evolutionary perspective? Evolutionary changes happen over a long, long time. I don't know that 25 years could tell us much.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

But I think we've seen a lot of changes in what we expect from fathers.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

They aren't supposed to just bring home the bacon--we want them to cook it up and feed the kids before goodnights, too.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

I think we see a lot more men coming of age who have been raised by single mothers.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

And I'll tell you: anecdotally, every single guy I know who was raised just by Mom is one hell of a housekeeper.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

That's very interesting!

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

I could see that. And probably very appreciative of the role his Mom played

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

The economy has changed. For the less educated, there aren't as many "tough" man jobs out there.

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

True

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

Assembly lines, factories, etc. are replacing a lot of workers with machines.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

But there are also cultural changes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

It's becoming more and more okay for guys to WANT to be active parents. To play a really fundamental role in raising their kids.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

Heck, I think it's more expected.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

For example, my Dad never came to my activities, for the most part. Work wouldn't allow it.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

Although I think a big challenge for SAHDs is the identity factor.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

But my husband not only goes to big things like gym meets and karate tournaments--he goes to watch every single practice. It's important to him.

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

And we see a lot of the other Dads doing the same thing.

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

Well, in fairness, I think women struggle with the SAHM identity factor, too.

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

That's true.

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

Do you think it's hard for anyone not to have a career? Why is staying at home an identity issue?

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

That's a good question.

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

I think, traditionally, we've thought that kids are better off when one parent is at home.

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

Historically, Mom.

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

Of course, new studies are debunking that myth.

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

They show that kids can thrive even when both parents work.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

Not that everyone who stays at home has no career. I'm assuming that the parent who stays at home is not able to commit as much time to his or her career as the other parent

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

But I think, for many Moms and Dads, who stay at home, it's exhausting to have so little of a life outside your kids.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

I mean...I love working from home because I can be there for my kids. But oh my god, I am so excited when I get to have a conference call with adults.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

Yeah. From what I've heard from my stay at home friends, it's frustrating mostly because of the lack of adult interaction.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

ADULTS WHO DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS THE INNER NUANCES OF POKEMON.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

or Monster High dolls!

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

I think especially with newborns and toddlers, life at home is all about the kids. Period.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

Here's a question for you

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

And that can be a big switch.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

There's a National At-Home Dad Network: http://athomedad.org/. Do you think it makes sense to have single sex parenting groups?

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

I would think all Dad parenting groups exacerbate the stigma of the SAHD role

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

I never got into Mommy and Me type classes/groups.

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

I know they saved some of my other friends. They adored them.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

Are men allowed at Mommy and Me classes?

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

But I always found them to be an extension of the whole idea that "it's all about your kid now, you no longer exist."

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

Yes, I know some SAHDs who do Mommy and Me type classes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

I don't know if it is Mommy and Me itself, though.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

Got it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

My one SAHD friend used to laugh about his daughter's playgroup. He was the only Dad member.

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

Do you think men parent differently from women?

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

So all the Moms would be asking him for marital advice.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

I think individuals parent differently from other individuals.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

Yes, my husband handles his parenting duties differently than I do.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

But so does my sister, many of my friends (male and female), etc.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

We like to hold on to these gender stereotypes and I don't know we should put so much stock in them.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

Even in all the research on sex differences in behavior, any sex diff researcher will tell you there is more variation within the group than between them.

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

Do you think the kids are impacted by being exposed more to one style than another?

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

Well, I think kids have to learn it's a big, bad and wacky world out there.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

I like that line of thinking. That's why I think parenting groups shouldn't be limited to moms or dads.

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

The rules in your house may not be the same at a friend's or at school or somewhere else.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

Why delineate that that way?

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

I agree--parenting groups should be open to ALL parents.

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

I think, whether you are a Mom or Dad, you face the same kinds of challenges if you are the daily caregiver.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

No one can have it all!

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

Where to find diapers on sale, how to catch a nap when the baby is sleeping, what's happening on Real Housewives of OC, or even, how I keep my individuality when everything has become about the baby?

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

That reminds me of another article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/world/europe/10iht-sweden.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

In Sweden, Men Can Have It All

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

And the parents who are not the primary caregivers probably face similar challenges too, no matter their sex.

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

It talks about paternity leave--and how Dads are now encouraged to take it in Sweden.

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

I'm guessing there is some guilt related to not being at home as often as a partner

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

There are a lot of benefits.

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

I might need to move to Sweden

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

And it made me wonder: if paternity leave was something encouraged here, would that change the stereotypes we hold about SAH parents?

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

I cannot believe the lack of paternity leave in this country!

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

I had no idea it wasn't standard (I figured men got at least two weeks) until my friends started having kids

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Yet, there was a line in that article that made me think it wasn't so simple

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

"Fredrik and Cecilia Friberg both went part time soon after their daughter Ylva was born last Christmas Eve. He works Monday, Wednesday and every other Friday, his wife the remaining days. It helps that both are civil servants."

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

"“I wanted to be there from the start. So much happens every week, I don’t want to miss out,” said Mr. Friberg, 31.nnEvery once in a while, former traditions surface. “I get complimented on how much I help at home, Cecilia gets no such gratitude."

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

Hmmmm.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

So even as things are changing, there is still this idea that Dad is giving more, doing more by staying home.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE SAME GODDAMN LAUNDRY. =)

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

I like this line from the article I posted a bit ago:

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

Our experience has taught us that in today’s society, no one person can “have it all.” But if a couple can “halve it all” (to borrow Francine Deutsch’s term), meaning find the healthiest balance among competing factors like career, relationship....

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

...and childcare, they might — as a couple — approach a contemporary version of “having it all.”

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

I like that!

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

I know I'm definitely much, much happier that I have someone helping with the house stuff, too.

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

It allows me to be able to do the work I love and spend time with my kids, where I'm not always the nag/bad guy/etc.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

That reminds me of an article about the benefits of children seeing parents divide household chores evenly: http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/05/dads-who-do-dishes-raise-ambitious-daughters.html

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

I liked that article.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

Tho, the title irked me a little. I think it's important for sons to see their Dads pitching in, too.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

I definitely remember my dad contributing quite a bit. Unloading the dishwasher, yard work, etc.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

So they understand that it takes two to run a happy household.

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

Agreed about the title!

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

Probably a click bait tactic

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

But it's funny: we have such ambivalence about Dads trying to help out.

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

We give them extra credit...but there's this notion that they are somehow deficient on the homefront just because they have testicles.

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

There are so many commercials, sitcoms, books, etc. that just make Dads out to be clueless as parents/caregivers/housekeepers.

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

we DO give them extra credit.

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

I would say a lot of sitcoms glorify the dumb Dad role

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

Why, I'm not sure.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

Is it because we think them as so incapable?

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

My favorite book about male parenting is by Michael Lewis, believe it or not. I picked it up at the airport once on a whim and really enjoyed it for its honesty and wit: http://amzn.to/1sUWQym

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

So they get extra points even for trying in that, bless-your-heart kind of way?

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

It's called Home Game: An Accidental Guide to Parenting

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

I love Michael Lewis.

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

He wrote about how it took him longer to form attachment to his children. How he was jealous of his wife during the breastfeeding months

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

I give it to every new dad I know!

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

I would, too!

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

We have such ingrained notions.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

And I think it's important to add that SAHDs also produce happy, healthy children.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

Numerous studies show that kids just need an involved, loving parent.

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

Better if there is more than one that they can rely on.

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

But doesn't matter if it is Mom/Dad, Dad/Dad, Mom/Grandma, etc.

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

So I think this SAHD thing is a good thing, ultimately.

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

I believe that. I mean, it reminds me of the fact that so many studies have shown that the children of lesbian and gay parents are just as likely to turn out well (or not) as the children of heterosexual parents

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

It helps promote more equality. It allows women to focus on goals outside of the home.

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

what matters is not the gender of sexual orientation of the parent

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

And it shows a lovely team spirit in couples.

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

Nope. Love trumps all! Always!

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

Love defines a family, not sex!

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

So I think we should remind people to drop the whole "Mr. Mom" schtick.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

We should respect the guys who are man enough to stay home and raise their kids.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

Not make them the butt of a joke.

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

SAHDs are no more or less well equipped than SAHMs to do the childrearing

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

Exactly!

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

I read something interesting about sympathy weight gain.

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

during pregnancy

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

Yes!

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

That does happen.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

"Historically, when men did more than donate sperm to a pregnancy—by suffering physical ailments along with their wives—they got called crazy. The condition labeled "sympathetic pregnancy," or couvade syndrome..."

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

"...describes expectant fathers who are stricken with some combination of weight gain, nausea, food cravings, backaches, insomnia, and other delights familiar to pregnant women everywhere."

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

I think it's natural.

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

You know, biology and environment cause some amazing interactions. They aren't crazy.

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

They just show how much our environments matter.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

They used to be thought of as crazy, but in teh last few years scientists have shown that normal, healthy, non-pregnancy-envying men often undergo real bodily changes when they're expecting children.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

Here's the relevant article in Slate: http://slate.me/V8NxvT

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

What kind of environmental factors are we talking about?

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

Just being around someone who is pregnant.

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

All the baby stuff.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

Ohhhh, got it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

Like nesting with the room, the doctors' appointments, etc.

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

It can affect your own biology--even if you are a dude.

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

And it's there to help Dads prepare to parent, too.

Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM

Like the phenomenon whereby women who hang out a lot end up getting their periods around the same time of month....

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

Yep.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

How would you feel if your man wanted to be a SAHD?

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

You get pregnant and he says, "I'm going to stay home!"

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

I would be all for it, because I think my man is an amazing father, and he truly LOVES kids. He's great with them. But I think I would get envious.

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

Why envious?

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

I love my work, but I could see myself getting jealous if he were in charge of their daily routines and knew more than I did about little things....such as what they prefer to eat for lunch, etc.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

And do you think maybe that's why we're sometimes so judgy? Because we're jealous that we can't?

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

That's a very good insight

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

I WANT IT ALL. AHHHHHHHH. MUST FIND A WAY TO HALVE IT ALL!

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

Dude, that's what the world keeps telling us.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

If we don't have it all, WE ARE SUCKING IT.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

It's hard being so terrible at being a woman.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

And on that note, let's close. Be nice to SAHDs, y'all. They aren't a joke. They are helping bringing us all to a more equal society.

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

Shucks

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

And that is magic.

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

Cheers to that!

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

See you guys next time and feel free to email with any ideas for forthcoming tawks. melanie dot berliet at gmail dot come

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

Thanks again, Melanie. As usual, it's a pleasure!

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

dot com, not come

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

And yes! Email Melanie!

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

Thank YOU, Kayt

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

Or me, info@kaytsukel.com. We'd love to hear from you!

Melanie Berliet · 5:46 PM

Until next time...

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

Til next time!