Melanie Berliet

Host

The Transgender Tipping Point

Jul 16, 2014·1,432 visitors

Kayt Sukel

Cohost

Stage· 211 messages

Jul 16, 2014

Laverne Cox (Orange Is the New Black) was recently pictured on the cover of TIME magazine and legislation has been passed in California allowing transgender students to choose which bathrooms they use and which sports teams they join. But opinions still vary widely on the issue of gender identity. Is sex defined between the legs or between the ears? And what can we expect as the transgender movement pushes ahead? Will the gender nonconforming ever be viewed as "normal"?

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

Hello!

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

Welcome to the Transgender Tipping Point.

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

Hello hello!

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

I thought we should start be clarifying what we mean by the term "trans"

Melanie Berliet · 5:01 PM

or "transgender"

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

Sometimes transsexual is used to imply that a person has or desires to have some sort of gender affirmative surgery, while transgender is sometimes used as an umbrella term.

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

I think it will be easiest to use "transgender" in the umbrella term sense today. Do you agree, Kayt?

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

Let's do that.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

Okay good!

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

And to start, why not share why you were inspired to do this talk?

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

Beyond the beautiful and amazing Laverne Cox, that is!

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

Ah yes! Laverne Cox is an inspiration. Beyond that, I think I've just started to sense a bit of a cultural shift, simply because more people are suddenly discussing what it means to be transgender

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Even Facebook has decided that the male/female thing is not enough.

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

They now have multiple options: http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/02/21/gender_facebook_now_has_56_categories_to_choose_from_including_cisgender.html

Melanie Berliet · 5:06 PM

Why do you think it's harder for some to accept the transgender phenomenon than it is for them to accept homosexuality?

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

That's a great question.

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

Because people don't understand that the brain and the genitals don't always match up.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Right. There's biological gender (which is a function of the sex organs you're born with), then there's the issue of gender identity (what sex you identify with) and then there's gender expression (what sex you wish to express). is that right?

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

That's how must researchers look at it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

Dick Swaab, a neuroscientist in the Netherlands, has done some really interesting work on this.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

this Upworthy video was helpful to me in understanding the difference between gender expression versus gender identity:nhttp://bit.ly/1nsZYxp

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

What has Dr. Swaab been up to?

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

Males and females have slightly different brains. And he's shown that those that identify with a particular gender have brains that match up to what they identify with, not what genitals they have.

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

http://www.bprcem.com/article/S1521-690X%2807%2900033-4/abstract?cc=y?cc=y

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

I wonder why we decided to separate "male" and "females" based upon sex organs in the first place.

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

As a society

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Well, thousands of years ago, I think it probably was the easiest way to discriminate!

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

We couldn't look in brains. You can't really see much difference in behavior.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

(Not in infants, at least)

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

But for centuries, we've had really distinct roles based on sex. Those ideas regarding gender and behavior still persist today.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

At what age does one's gender identity start to take root do you think?

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

Pretty early, I bet.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

Yes, expectations based upon gender roles are deeply problematic

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

And we're learning that it's not just biology--environment plays an important role, too.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

Not that giving a little boy a doll is going to result in making him less masculine, mind you.

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

What environmental factors are at play?

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

But there are subtle signals that the environment gives that turns certain genes on and off.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

The science is clear that being gay or transgendered is not a choice. It's a biological disposition.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

But it's clear that gender and sexual orientation is a lot more fluid than once thought--and that makes it difficult to study.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

So what factors? It could vary from person to person.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

what kinds of subtle signals can the environment give us?

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

Subtle signals on what we eat, how we play, all kinds of little things.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

Ohhhhh

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

Got it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

Again, you can't turn that into, "Mommy was too lenient and so you will be transgendered!"

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

But biology does not exist in a vaccuum.

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

I think we might just have to start looking at everyone as a human and not a boy or a girl or a man/woman!

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

I think that's important.

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

And you know, I think that's starting to happen.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

As a parent, Kayt, what do you think about the issue of co-ed bathrooms?

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

I remember the reaction to Chablis in "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" and then to Laverne Cox now.

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

I think there has been a shift.

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

I know that's been causing a lot of controversy...the idea that there should not be gender specific bathrooms in public schools

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

I think we're too hung up on gender bathrooms.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

I say this as a woman who used the men's room, without detriment, yesterday.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

Here's some info on the legislation in California: bathroom use legislation in Californianhttp://n.pr/1acLzyX

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

Because when you have to go, you have to go.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

I always use the men's room!

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

Because there's never a line!

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

Logistically, I think it might just take removing urinals to make a lot of people feel better about it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

Fox News has taken up this issue, as you might imagine.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

If everyone's got a stall, who the hell cares?

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/10/fox-and-friends-bathroom-gender-neutral_n_5574824.html

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

Ah, Fox. Of course!

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

I know there are some people who are afraid that guys will be "tempted" by what they see in the co-ed bathrooms.

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

But some kid took it apart: http://jezebel.com/kid-tears-apart-foxs-stupid-gender-neutral-bathroom-fea-1603449318

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

The issue of gender specific sports teams is also interesting

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

Well, and the military, too--no women in combat.

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

But here's the thing: what if it were all based on ability, not gender.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

I didn't even know that was a policy in the military!

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

what's the reasoning?

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

Women are thought to be too weak for combat. Of course, in the past 10 years, many have seen combat.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

But technically, women are not supposed to participate in combat arms. And they cannot take jobs that are technically combat arms.

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

I like the ability of ability based sports teams, even if that means very few women in Hypotethical League A

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

I think it might depend on the sport.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

But yes.

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

the other issue is that people are generally forbidden from taking hormones in professional sports. so how do you address those who want to take hormone therapy to change sex

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

It's tricky.

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

Remember the controversy surrounding Caster Semenya

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/11/30/091130fa_fact_levy?currentPage=all

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

I remember the Caster Semenya scandal: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/09/11/report-champion-runner-has-both-female-male-sexual-characteristics/

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

Jinx!

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

Jinx!

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

The worst about that story, for me, was that she didn't know.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

I was fascinated by that

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

yes, that had to be tough

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

She was just trying to compete.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

There are many cases in which parents have to decide how to raise their child (as either a boy or a girl), and often they don't reveal that to the kid in an attempt to protect him/her

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

But that can backfire.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

most certainly.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

i mean, at some point it has to be revealed, right?

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

Well, in the David Reimer story, they tried to keep it quiet for a long, long time.

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dr_money_prog_summary.shtml

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

gender ambiguity is another interesting phenomenon that would point to the fact that gender cannot be defined simply by what sex organs a person is born with

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/born-ambiguous-genitalia-hypospadias-gender-sexuality-71345/

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

Do you know anyone personally who has struggled with gender identity, Kayt?

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

Yes, and more parents are choosing not to make a choice right away.

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

That's good to hear

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

To let kids grow and see which gender they gravitate towards.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

I do. I have a friend who is transgendered and has undergone gender reassignment surgery.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

She is a very brave person. She's gone through a lot. But, for her, there was no other choice.

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

What were some of your friend's biggest struggles?

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

Acceptance.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

Her wife was totally accepting, luckily.

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

That's wonderful

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

How about her parents?

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

But you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get gender reassignment surgery.

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

I'm guessing insurance doesn't cover it!

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

Live as a woman for quite a while before surgery.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

I don't know about parents, to be honest.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

I just heard a lot of awful stories about her experiences at work and with some of the other parents.

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

Oh wow.

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

(She and her wife have a child).

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

How has the child handled it?

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

The child loves both her Moms and was part of the process, too. She was more than okay.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

That's heart warming

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

Showing open, honest communication is always the best way.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

It is so moving to see people be accepting

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

Even when you are dealing with something you might not understand.

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

But then you hear other stories.

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

I think the good thing about the Internet is that there are so many ways for people going through the same thing to connect

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

Patti Hammond Shaw's experience humbled me: http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicolepas/the-woman-who-helped-change-how-police-treat-transgender-peo

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

Especially for parents raising a child going through a gender identity/expression crisis...

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

I'm so grateful that she turned something so awful into something where she could help other transgendered people.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

This story will tug at your heart strings: Ryland's Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAHCqnux2fk

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

I actually know two parents going through something similar.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

And you know, they love and accept their kids.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

In one case, I think the Dad is hoping that the kid will grow out of it during puberty. But is okay if that doesn't happen.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

Ah.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

And that does happen.

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

People do flip-flop

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

I think that's the biggest message. Gender/sexuality is not absolute.

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

We like our categories but, you know, they don't always fit.

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

This ABC news anchor made a splash about transitioning, only to transition back after a whilenhttp://nym.ag/1nsZZkV

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

some then argued that the flip-flopping meant that he was "wrong" to start with

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

but I agree with you, that gender is not absolute

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

I think we get in trouble when we talk about "right" and "wrong."

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

I know there are some biological males who identify as female who don't want surgery.

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

They want to live as women yet keep a penis.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

Sometimes that's fear/cost of surgery. But sometimes, it's feeling comfortable in a position that other people can't explain/define well.

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

yes "right" and "wrong" always lead to trouble

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

There are so many more options that boy or girl!

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

In that upworthy video I linked to, btw, I loved the speaker's explanation of gender identity versus expression

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

It was a good one!

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

But you titled this "tipping point."

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

He said that you can identify as one gender but express traits associated with another. We tend to think of gender expression as existing on a scale from masculine to feminine.....

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

We have Laverne Cox on the cover of Time. We have Facebook giving dozens of gender options.

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

...but in reality it's two scales, and a measurement on each of them. Wearing pink pants doesn't make a beard any less masculine but it might increase someone's level of femininity as perceived by others.

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

Are we at a point where we, as a society, are becoming more accepting?

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

I'd like to believe so!

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

I think that because we have come to accept homosexuality more and more, this is the next step

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

I hope so!

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

If nothing else, I'd like to think we can stop thinking in so many absolutes.

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

Yes. And I think it will take time for the law to catch up

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

But there's hope

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

many are saying it's the next civil rights movement

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

The law always takes its time to catch up.

Melanie Berliet · 5:35 PM

yeah, i spose that's the nature of the law.

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

Some states now allow you to change sex/gender on government IDs.

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

that's a start!

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

A start is good!

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

we need to start separating people by their sex organs

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

And I think as more people share their stories, work to change our stereotypes

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

Things will get better.

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

yes

Melanie Berliet · 5:37 PM

I think this is something that pertains to a lot of the population, too

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

A lot more than people think.

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

Do you think those that do not come forward are doing the transgender movement a disservice?

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

And I think some of it will be people accidentally finding out a neighbor or friend is transgendered.

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

The old coming out thing!

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

I ask because I was very moved by Anderson Cooper's decision to come out. He said he finally felt as if saying nothing was problematic

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

That's tough for me.

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

I give my thanks to every brave person who does come out.

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

But to put that responsibility on every single transgendered person?

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

That's tough for me.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

I suppose the issue with Anderson Cooper was also that he's a public figure. So his situation is a bit different

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

I think that's part of the tipping point, definitely.

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

Whether you are a public figure or not. Talking openly about these differences. Educating about the science.

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

Trying to steer people away from some strict definition of "normal" when it comes to gender and sex.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

Are there many scientific studies underway?

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

I hope so!

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

No.

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

Not enough.

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

Dr. Swaab does some work. And there are also some other labs that dabble.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

I imagine it's tough to get government funding for such studies in the US

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

But few researchers in the US can get funding for heterosexual sex research.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

And studies take a long time1

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

And, yes, studies take a long time.

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

And you can't ignore that many studies have been done with the premise of "fixing" transgendered individuals

Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM

as much as I hate to admit that celebrity is so critical in pushign causes forward, stories like Laverne Cox's are so important

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

And that's no help to anyone.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

They are.

Kayt Sukel · 5:42 PM

Awareness is important.

Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM

of course! that is definitely a problem. I don't even want to know what the Catholic church's stance is on being transgender

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

awareness and education are definitely paramount

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

And maybe that's the note to end on.

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

We are at the crossroads.

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

I read an amazing memoir I would recommend called I Am Not Myself These Days by Josh Kilmer-Purcell:nhttp://amzn.to/1qwYXTV

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

And it's important to understand that gender is not as fixed as we think.

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

That people should be judged on their hearts, not their genitals.

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

Also, I think some might be surprised by a few of the names on this list of 21 Transgender people who influenced American culture: nhttp://ti.me/1mz7zHt

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

Yes! Hearts, and not in the biological sense :)

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

Indeed.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

Once again, a pleasure, Miss Melanie!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

And on that note, I bid you farewell Kayt!

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

See you in two weeks--where we will talking about female fashion and stereotypes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

Thanks for joining us!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

Always a pleasure. I am available a melanie dot berliet at gmail dot come!

Melanie Berliet · 5:45 PM

Yes thank you!

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

And I'm happy to hear ideas at info@kaytsukel.com.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

Bis dann!

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