Jordan Birnbaum

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The U.S. Military & The Human Condition

May 2, 2013·59 visitors

Jim Frederick

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May 2, 2013

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

Hello Mr. Frederick

Jim Frederick · 1:01 AM

Hello

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

welcome everyone. as always a quick word to newcomers:

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

the banner below will describe what to do in order to participate

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

listening and voting on comments is how we can interact with you. so don't be shy!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

With that said, tonight's topic was selected because it is the expertise of our distinguished guest

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

Jim - you have been in a variety of editorial positions at Time and several of its properties, right?

Jim Frederick · 1:04 AM

That's right, yes. I just recently left TIME after 16 years but I held a wide variety of positions there over that time

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

wow - that's big news - deserves its own set of follow up questions that I will reserve for another time

Jim Frederick · 1:05 AM

Tokyo Bureau Chief, Senior Editor in London, Editor of both TIME.com and TIME International. And a couple of trips to Iraq in there as well

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

Which leads me to your most recent book, Black Hearts: One Platoon’s Descent into Madness in Iraq’s Triangle of Death. Can you explain to the audience a little about the backstory?

Jim Frederick · 1:07 AM

Sure. Briefly, it is the story of one company of soldiers, infantry soldiers, to an area south of Baghdad called the Triangle of Death

Jim Frederick · 1:07 AM

They were there in 2005-2006 which is arguably the most dangerous time of Iraq's most dangerous placde

Jim Frederick · 1:08 AM

and theirs was a star-crossed deployment. everything that could go wrong did. they lost almost 1/3 of their men to death or injury. and one platoon had it worse than all the others, but they also had a couple of bad eggs in the platoon. so the book

Jim Frederick · 1:09 AM

is really a chronicle of a downward spiral of a small group of men in combat, a spiraling which culminates in four men from this one platoon to commmit one of the worst war crimes of the whole war: they rape a14 year old iraqi girl and kill her, her

Jim Frederick · 1:10 AM

her parents and her 6 year old sister. the book is a 360 degree look at how does the unthinkable actually happen

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

When I learned of the story, like a lot of people, thought of the scene in the movie "Platoon."

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

And I remember leaving that film wondering what happens to people in these insane situations

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

did you feel that you had to view this from a psychological perspective, a foensic perspective, or both?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

forensic

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“good god :-O i must read this book.....”

Jim Frederick · 1:13 AM

oh, definitely. trying to understand the psychology was the most interesting/difficult part

Jim Frederick · 1:14 AM

to try to not excuse such behavior, but to understand how it is possible. there is quite a bit of literature on it. but probably the best, most approachable book for the layperson is a recent one called "Achilles in Vietnam"

Jim Frederick · 1:15 AM

it is by a psychologist who works with Vietnam vets (this was a little before all the Iraq-Afghan vets started coming back) and he has worked a long time with average joes who are suffering from PTSD and witnessed or even committed atrocities

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

There were so many mitigating factors that played a role in this. One review of your book that I read stated that "every single leader in the army should be required to read this book." Firstly, what does the reviewer hope they will learn?

Jim Frederick · 1:18 AM

Well, thanks, I am glad you got to this, because one of the big lessons of my research and I hope lessons of the book is that this unit was set up to fail

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

by design or neglect?

Jim Frederick · 1:19 AM

there was bad leadership up and down the chain of command. some of it was a classic "toxic leader" in the form of the battalion commander, a company commander who was probably in over his head, and then a revolving door of

Jim Frederick · 1:20 AM

platoon level leaders--this platoon at one point had three different platoon sergeants in the span of about 30 days. which is not supposed to happen, especially in a combat zone. the platoon leader is really the guy that is supposed to keep the whole

Jim Frederick · 1:21 AM

platoon together. he's the only real guaranteed adult--you know a 30 year old or so, who is looking out for probably 25 nineteen and 20 year olds and a couple of squad leaders who are likely no more than 25 years old

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:22 AM

I'm guessing they are insufficiently trained in organizational psychology

Jim Frederick · 1:22 AM

it was a revolving door. so when the crime actually happened, the Army wanted to chalk it up to the bad apples "Who could have seen this coming?" but, well, actually, if anyone was paying attention, they would have seen that

Jim Frederick · 1:22 AM

the platoon was "combat ineffective" as the phrase goes for months before the atrocity occured

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

all right - I want to pivot the discussion to some pretty big issues of the day. Before I do, I just have to mention that I also saw a review call your book "the best book by far about the Iraq War," so I want to congratulate you and honor your contr

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

contribution

Jim Frederick · 1:25 AM

many thanks. i'm gratified that the book has found the audience it has

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:25 AM

All right - I need a brief explanation of military justice. Is it constitutional? Who wrote it? Can it incorporate civilians?

Jim Frederick · 1:27 AM

Ah! Excellent question! Is it constitutional? Yes and no. For the most part yes, but there are certain liberties that civilians enjoy that soldiers do not, and that holds true for the military justice system. it is more of a self-contained system

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

so becoming a soldier means surrendering certain rights?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

Sure makes "support our troops" ring hollow

Jim Frederick · 1:29 AM

Well, yeah, like a soldier doesn't really have any right to privacy or even any personal space that cannot be searched by a superior, for example

Jim Frederick · 1:30 AM

the law of the land in the military is what's known as "the UCMJ" which I believe stands for the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

all right - so then how might someone who is not enlisted get caught up in military justice?

Jim Frederick · 1:32 AM

it applies to officers, too. officers are less likely to get implicated in straight-up military battlefield crimes because frankly they pull the trigger less often, and lots of battle field crimes really are heat of the moment things, but back on

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Sometimes, a sociopathic situation creates psychopathic behavior.”

Jim Frederick · 1:33 AM

bases, officers can get nabbed by the justice system just like they were civilians. theft, battery, etc.

Jim Frederick · 1:34 AM

A good example of how military crime is different than civilian crime is in confessions. in civilian court, if you confess to a crime,like stealing a car, well, okay, that's pretty much it. guilty. but in the military, if you commit a crime like

Jim Frederick · 1:35 AM

auto theft, you might be subject to a very long interview/interrogation by the judge who is really trying to figure out if your stealing a car is actually another form of cowardice or malingering because your larger aim is to avoid deployment

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

so there was recent story about a rape conviction that was reached in a military tribunal but then overturned by a commanding officer who made the decision in his sole discretion. Is that throwing a new light on military justice?

Jim Frederick · 1:37 AM

yes! probably the biggest wrinkle is that the final word on every case is not the judge. it is, in fact, the commanding general of that jurisdiction. the CG can simply throw out or ignore a judge's sentence. that is a vestige and a reminder

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

sounds like a feudal lord

Jim Frederick · 1:38 AM

that this is the military and hierarchy is all, and everybody, but *everybody* works for the CG.

Jim Frederick · 1:39 AM

now, throwing out the sentence like this case you mention is pretty darn rare. but it does happen, and when it does, it does highlight just how assinine the system can be

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Fred Smilow

“Where does the line between human being & test case get drawn? It seems once the line is crossed, it's really hard to come back from.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

next let's move to Bradley Manning. as I understand it, his release of documents to Wikileaks was in order to expose a crime. I take it that whistleblower protection does not extend to soldiers. Isn't that protecting corruption?

Jim Frederick · 1:42 AM

Well, I believe that his defense is that his aim was to expose a wide range of generalized war crime behavior by an hegemonic power, not necessarily that, for example, he witnessed a specific crime by a specific person and he was trying to right that

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

that classification determines whether whistleblower protections are relevant?

Jim Frederick · 1:43 AM

wrong. So, when dealing with classified information, I am not sure the data dumps of undiscriminating magnitude he did would be covered under a whistleblower provision

Jim Frederick · 1:44 AM

i would be very surprised if he is able to invoke whistleblower protections

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

Now what about his long incarceration, abusive treatment, and lack of due process? Are these technically legal, or an example of abuse of power?

Jim Frederick · 1:46 AM

well, i am not a lawyer, and not a military lawyer, but just as a citizen, and someone who follows these things as a journalist, it does look to me like whatever the technicalities are that he is not getting due process

Jim Frederick · 1:47 AM

not unlike gitmo, which is one of Obama's elephants in the room

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

Nice transition! You should be a writer!

Jim Frederick · 1:47 AM

or drone warfare. or the fact that our special ops guys are really hit teams these days

Jim Frederick · 1:48 AM

hugely successful, incredibly efficient hit teams, but let's call them what they are: they're assassination squads

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

As for Gitmo, what do you feel are the real reasons it hasn't been shut down despite Obama signing an executive order years ago?

Jim Frederick · 1:51 AM

if i had intel sources that could tell me the real reasons, when obama himself campaigned on shutting it down, and why the either inability or now he's convinced its a bad idea to do so, that would be my next book

Jim Frederick · 1:51 AM

i don't know why it has proven impossible to shut it down

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

can you even imagine a real reason? like a privatized prison making money? Who would want to block this?

Jim Frederick · 1:53 AM

oh, if i had to venture a guess, i imagine that the intel community and the military has prevailed upon the administration that they guys in there are actually more dangerous free than incarcerated the way they are

Jim Frederick · 1:54 AM

we know about the Afghanistan surge power struggle that Obama lost with the military before he eventually won it. i can only imagine that this is a power struggle that he loses because the fear of "what if a guy we let go

Jim Frederick · 1:55 AM

is actually the next OBL" is so powerful. that fear of the what if is powerful stuff, it's why we've all gone apeshit all over again over the Boston bombing. Was locking down a 1 million person metro area really necessary?

Jim Frederick · 1:56 AM

why did not more people at the time point out that this was completely irrational, even after the the destruction visited on boston, which in the cosmic scheme of things was. . . not much. My condolences to everyone who

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

Blame the human condition.

Jim Frederick · 1:57 AM

suffered at the hands of the bombers, but what are government is supposed to do is evaluate and respond to risks in a *proportionate* manner, and a lot of how we respond is not proportionate.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“true but the military is totally different - or it likes to think it is. its the governments toy,they play with it they way they want. no matter the pain,heartache and shit they deliver”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

Jim - there is so much left I want to cover. The suicide epidemic among soldiers. Rampant homelessness among vets. Institutionalized rape. Hopefully we can do another and address some of these really important topics.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“The last thing Obama wants is for one of the detainees to go back home and commit a terrorist act and essentially have it blow up in his face that the prisoner was released on Obama's order”

Jim Frederick · 1:59 AM

Sure, I'd be happy to come back. Yes, lots more to discuss

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

But I want to go out with a broader question.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

The Dr. Strangelove characterization of senior military officials who are literally insane and desirous of global destruction. How close is that to true? (consider the Cuban missilke crisis)

Jim Frederick · 2:02 AM

Well the Cuban missile crisis was before my time, but honestly, my experience with senior military officials is actually very far from that charactiture. If anything, I think that the whole military, and that's on up to generals these days

Jim Frederick · 2:02 AM

are just freaking tired, and they too are sick of a decade of war. And a lot of them to this day are pretty bitter about the fact that they feel they have been put in a position that they were never supposed to

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“"Gentleman you can't fight in here...This is the war room!"”

Jim Frederick · 2:03 AM

to this day, they resent rumsfeld and the bush administration for not having an exit plan. they see themselves as an instrument of the executive branch and they feel like they have been used and misused and abused

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

well, they and the American people have that in common.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:05 AM

All right, Jim, thank you so very much. It was really interesting and maybe a little upsetting, but such is our world.

Jim Frederick · 2:06 AM

Indeed, thanks for having me. If I haven't been too upsetting, I'll come back!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

And a big thank you to the audience. I so appreciate your participation.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

Yes, Jim. I'm insufficiently depressed.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:07 AM

All right - anyone who comes after-the-fact should click the "top" button in the upper left corner so you can know what's what. Thanks!

Forum · 56

Forum· 56 comments

59 visitors

Blake IanMay 2, 2013, 12:46 AM

What I lack in knowledge of The U.S. Military... I make up for in experience with The Human Condition!

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 12:50 AM

Tawk, tawk, tawk - sometimes I think I shall go mad! (Toss of hair, sniff)

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 12:51 AM

brb :-)

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 12:51 AM

I also have experience in the human condition. Fortunately, it's in remission.

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 12:58 AM

im back! hey all

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 1:01 AM

Let the games begin

Charlotte GreensitMay 2, 2013, 1:06 AM

Test

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 1:10 AM

Sounds sort of like a My Lai redux

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:10 AM★ Spotlighted

good god :-O i must read this book.....

Blake IanMay 2, 2013, 1:15 AM

Link to Achilles in Vietnam ya'll http://www.amazon.com/Achilles-Vietnam-Combat-Undoing-Character/dp/0684813211

Rachael WorkmanMay 2, 2013, 1:15 AM

a little more context for the audience. pretty horrifying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:16 AM

hey blake can you put up a link me too? i aint in the US. ta :-)

Charlotte GreensitMay 2, 2013, 1:16 AM

Black Hearts: http://www.amazon.com/Black-Hearts-Platoons-Descent-Triangle/dp/B008SLEQF8

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 1:17 AM

Insane behavior - and atrocities - have been part and parcel of war since the beginning.

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:19 AM

there is only so much the human condition can - or will - cope with.

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:21 AM

seems too many people high up in the chain of command didnt have a clue what they were doing,and it was the poor sods on the ground who took the flack

Rachael WorkmanMay 2, 2013, 1:22 AM

wow, a little terrifying that a 30 year old is expected to be the grownup in a warzone.

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 1:24 AM★ Spotlighted

Sometimes, a sociopathic situation creates psychopathic behavior.

Fred SmilowMay 2, 2013, 1:24 AM★ Spotlighted

Where does the line between human being & test case get drawn? It seems once the line is crossed, it's really hard to come back from.

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:28 AM

is this military justice the same around the world?

Rachael WorkmanMay 2, 2013, 1:28 AM

if the platoon leader is a big part of the problem, i'm curious how any of his or her underlings would go about making that known. is there some kind of military equivalent to an HR department that they can call and be like "this man's a maniac"?

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:29 AM

racheal,thats the catch 22....read the book :-)

Charlotte GreensitMay 2, 2013, 1:34 AM

RR: yes, but some folk shouldn't be in the army at all. Eg Steven Green, the lead bad guy in Black Hearts

Rachael WorkmanMay 2, 2013, 1:34 AM

dickies i plan to, but that shouldn't be a catch 22. no successful organization exists without systems for accountability that run in both directions, i wouldn't expect any less from our military

Blake IanMay 2, 2013, 1:36 AM

Totally agree with Rachael....and Dickes ever see the movie?? Mike Nichols follow up to the Graduate, with an insane cast

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:37 AM★ Spotlighted

true but the military is totally different - or it likes to think it is. its the governments toy,they play with it they way they want. no matter the pain,heartache and shit they deliver

Lucy DyerMay 2, 2013, 1:37 AM

yes i did blake - bloody funny as hell! have read the book numerous times too

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 1:39 AM

I prefer droit du seigneur

Fred SmilowMay 2, 2013, 1:40 AM

When a CG overturns a decision, can that be appealed in a civilian appellate court?

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 1:45 AM

Both.

Fred SmilowMay 2, 2013, 1:49 AM

Everyone needs a hobby I guess

Charlotte GreensitMay 2, 2013, 1:49 AM

So the past two wars are different to Vietnam or all 3 different to WW2? R+R and known/recognizable enemy in WW2 unlike terrorists in past decade?

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 1:50 AM

I voted for him. But he is, after all, a politician.

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 1:52 AM

Having connections issues...it would be good if Gitmo was finally shutdown. Prosecute the prisoners or send them back home but there is not point in keeping them indefinitely

Rachael WorkmanMay 2, 2013, 1:53 AM

probably the same people who campaigned for it to begin with. not sure what the original explanation for gitmo was, or who provided it.

Liphan LeeMay 2, 2013, 1:53 AM

where would our military torture the terrorists?!?

Charlotte GreensitMay 2, 2013, 1:53 AM

What has the us mil learned, if anything. Or what should it learn?

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 1:53 AM

and it has been admitted that some of the "prisoners" simply were caught because they just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, when locals were offered bounties to turn people over

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 1:55 AM

Don't let them go. Make them disappear.

Fred SmilowMay 2, 2013, 1:56 AM

We could train the prisoners to fight Somalian pirates. That would help some.

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 1:56 AM★ Spotlighted

The last thing Obama wants is for one of the detainees to go back home and commit a terrorist act and essentially have it blow up in his face that the prisoner was released on Obama's order

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 1:58 AM

I could see both sides of the overwhelming police force argument

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 2:00 AM

It's easy to look back now and say there were 10,000 police looking for one 19yo, but in retrospect we didn't know how many other people might have been involved and how many weapons this person had at his disposal

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 2:00 AM

A 3rd person was arrested today as an accomplice

Blake IanMay 2, 2013, 2:02 AM★ Spotlighted

"Gentleman you can't fight in here...This is the war room!"

Fred SmilowMay 2, 2013, 2:03 AM

More like so paranoid the other guy is going to destroy them, that they are willing to destroy themselves & everyone else just for the ego satisfaction that they had power to do it & no one could stop them.

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 2:03 AM

And we must protect our precious bodily fluids.

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 2:04 AM

Let's remember the military is an outgrowth of the huge influence of weapons makers which need to drum up bsiness

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 2:04 AM

Quoting Colonel Bat Guano.

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 2:05 AM

The Carlyle Group. Lockheed, Boeing, etc. need wars to promote business

Rachael WorkmanMay 2, 2013, 2:06 AM

lots of really complicated material tonight guys, thank you. look forward to the next one.

Rick RosnerMay 2, 2013, 2:06 AM

Thanks J & J

Seth HochmanMay 2, 2013, 2:06 AM

Iraq certainly wasn't necessary but it helped the Bush family's Carlyle Group

Charlotte GreensitMay 2, 2013, 2:07 AM

Great. more please! Thanks

Ashley MorrillJun 13, 2014, 7:50 AM

Ashley MorrillJun 13, 2014, 7:51 AM

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