Jordan Birnbaum

Host

The U.S. Military & The Human Condition, Part II

May 14, 2013·30 visitors

Jim Frederick

Cohost

Stage· 121 messages

May 14, 2013

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

Mr. Frederick, I presume?

Jim Frederick · 1:00 AM

Yes, hello. Great to be here again

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

I am so excited to have this oppoprtunity with you again. I have a lot I hope we can cover tonight.

Jim Frederick · 1:01 AM

Yes, just scratched the surface last time

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

Charlotte - I promise we will gert there and I'll spotlight you when we do

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

OK - for newcomers - the best way to experience this is by participating in the audience. Speak up

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

Liusten to your other audience members comments. And vote them up if you think Jim and I would like to see them.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

So here we go. Sexual assaults in the military have been getting unusual amounts of media coverage. Is this a sign that the problem may have hit its peak?

Jim Frederick · 1:04 AM

Well thanks to the movie Invisible War, it has gotten, finally, a fair bit of attention

Jim Frederick · 1:04 AM

and there are indications that the powers that be are beginning to address the problem seriously

Jim Frederick · 1:04 AM

but when the Air Force's special officer in charge of sexual assault prevention himself gets

Jim Frederick · 1:05 AM

charged with groping, well, that's a pretty dismal indicator that there is a long long way to go on this issue

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

At the root of the problem, do you think sexual assault military is a problem of causation or correllation?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“that and the fact there is the internet - eg. twitter,facebook.. etc”

Jim Frederick · 1:06 AM

i think that there are some pretty deeply grained cultural patterns of behavior and institutionalized sexism that make this problem

Jim Frederick · 1:07 AM

a particularly peculiar one in the military vs broader society. at its root this is an organization that prides itself on its discipline

Jim Frederick · 1:08 AM

yet is is such an historically male-oriented/dominated organization that it does seem that there has been a long history of parts of the

Jim Frederick · 1:09 AM

culture being able to systematically prey on the women who have wanted to be a part of it. at the us air force academy, marine training barracks are two of the most notable cases

Jim Frederick · 1:09 AM

and then a more widespread culture of punishing women who speak up seems to be even more prevalent in the military than in even broader society

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

One of the questions I can't help but consider is whether some common factor in those who seek military service make them more prone to excessive behavior given the right circumstances.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

That may be too difficult to determine, but it would be helpful to know.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“That, Jordan, is a great question.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

Thanks, Rick.

Jim Frederick · 1:12 AM

we are a volunteer force these days, so i think it is safe to say that everybody who volunteers has considered and made peace with the notion that they may kill and/or be killed

Jim Frederick · 1:13 AM

and one of the long-standing challenges of military training has always been to harness and channel violence in exactly the way the state wants it channeled

Jim Frederick · 1:13 AM

i met a lot of soldiers in iraq who, when asked why they joined the army said, "i wanted to fuck shit up."

Jim Frederick · 1:14 AM

that, of course, is what a military does: it destroys things. but under the state's control. it is, as it were the state's control of the individual will to aggression, power, etc.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

seems an impossible dance

Jim Frederick · 1:15 AM

old has history itself

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

ok - let's pivot to the other end of the extreme emotional spectrum - suicide in the military has reached unbelievably epidemic proportions. Why? What can we do?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“There are definitely people who seek military service for the service.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

That's true David - it's not a binary option

Jim Frederick · 1:17 AM

it is truly an epidemic now, yes. more than 1 suicide per day. i am not just plugging my employer here but TIME has done some

Jim Frederick · 1:18 AM

pioneering stories on this topic, a cover story not too long ago. what is most interesting is that not all of these suicides are combat vets or diagnosed ptsd cases

Jim Frederick · 1:18 AM

that is among the biggest mysteries. there is a percentage, a large one, of military suicides where combat trauma cannot be the immediate or even a proximate cause

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

This point must be addressed. However, I want to take a step back so you can address two sets of questions from the audience related to our past topic.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Charlotte Greensit

“Isn't it more about the culture, the organization, their own rules than individuals?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

that's the first one

Jim Frederick · 1:22 AM

obviously there are very nuanced questions here, but I would say its a bit of all of the above. in the military justice system, there are for example, many more opportunities for what's known as

Jim Frederick · 1:23 AM

"command influence" to suffuse a case, any case, really. but the military panel that judges a sexual assault case may wind up being people that the defendant and the accused both know. that's just one example of some deeper institutional impediments

Jim Frederick · 1:23 AM

to victims speaking up

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

here comes the second questions related to correlating characteristics

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“Is it possible to know whether the problem was "worse" during the draft?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Choice vs. draft: of course, there are/were differences in personal inclinations.”

Jim Frederick · 1:25 AM

well, yes, these are both fair points on both counts. these are broad generalizations on my part, but here goes:

Jim Frederick · 1:26 AM

in black hearts, the book I wrote about the rape and murder of a 14 year old iraqi girl by 4 101st airborne soldiers, i go to great pains to point out how utterly rare this case was in the iraq war

Jim Frederick · 1:27 AM

whereas by one very academic estimate, US soldiers in the european theater of wwII committed more than 18,000 rapes of local women. and something like only a couple hundred were prosecuted

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

whoa

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

was not expecting that

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

sign of the times? or something even more sinister?

Jim Frederick · 1:28 AM

and discipline lapses in the vietnam era are legendary. so that led me to conclude that the current us military is actually among the BEST behaved in history.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

well that's encouraging

Jim Frederick · 1:29 AM

great. great that we no longer prey on foreign women. but why do we prey on our own in such epidemic numbers. it has turned inward in a big way

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

In fact, I take some patriotic pride in that

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“I did. Although my father was a professional folk singer (played with Dylan and Peter Paul & Mary). And, of course, now is a Tea Party activist, so the folk police came and took his guitars.”

Jim Frederick · 1:30 AM

well, look, i think it's the downside of all the band of brothers/greatest generation stuff. our debt to our grandfathers is so great for seeing off fascism

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

that brings up another point - are we spoiled?

Jim Frederick · 1:30 AM

and the story is so good, the hollywood and contemporary popular history have completely sanitized those warriors into being some sort of supernatural saints. it just doesn't jibe with reality

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:31 AM

wow - OK I'm really glad we did that. But let's get back to this horrible suicide problem.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:32 AM

Based on what you were saying above, it sounds as though there has been terrible difficulty in identifying some unifying characteristic - is that correct?

Jim Frederick · 1:33 AM

yes, that's correct. the faulty assumtion has been that military suicide is directly--directly--related to combat trauma.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

might this suggest that people who are mentally unwell are proactively seeking out military involvement as a last-ditch effort?

Jim Frederick · 1:35 AM

the main thrust of the the research i have seen is: is there, after 12 years of continuous war, not something in the military wherein many of the support and screening systems are just broken

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“Wow, interesting point I have never considered before Jim...”

Jim Frederick · 1:37 AM

i think it is fair to say that no military planner or top official is, despite what some of they stereotypes might portray, happy with a state of perpetual war

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

Now let's tawk about what happens when the vets get home. (And THEN we'll talk PTSD - I promise!)

Jim Frederick · 1:38 AM

i saw an item today: you know who are the last people who want to intervene in Syria? The pentagon 4-stars. they want nothing to do with it

Jim Frederick · 1:38 AM

okay, that was my last point on the above

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

Well let me reply, as a frequent critic of the military, that I am will be thrilled to be proven wrong, and am heartened immensely to hear this.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

OK -now we'll hit the next topic - joblessness, homelessness and lack of health care for veterans. How can we let this happen?

Jim Frederick · 1:41 AM

we let is happen every day. it is happening now. go on Facebook. friend some vets. ask them how long it takes them to get a va appointment

Jim Frederick · 1:41 AM

or how often their disability classification gets changed on them for no reason

Jim Frederick · 1:41 AM

one of the upsides of an all volunteer army as we have discussed, is that discipline can actually be very good

Jim Frederick · 1:42 AM

the downside is that only 1% of the US has any direct, personal involvement in the military or immediate family member. so it is all out-of-sight, out of mind

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

Did we used to do a better job of taking care of our vets?

Jim Frederick · 1:44 AM

definitely. the GI BIll is probably one of the greatest veteran initiatives in the history of the world. changed the socio-economic landscape of the entire country

Jim Frederick · 1:44 AM

on the other hand: ptsd, and the awareness of mental issues relating to combat were in the dark ages.

Jim Frederick · 1:45 AM

why do you think all the characters in mad men drink so much? they are all wwii and korean war veterans and they are self-medicating

Jim Frederick · 1:45 AM

i joke--but only a little

Jim Frederick · 1:45 AM

so some things are better. some are worse

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

but what changed in the other types of support - financial, housing, health care, education?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

and why?

Jim Frederick · 1:47 AM

well, at its peak, defense spending accounted for something like 70% of the us economy, and the us economy accounted for something like 2/3 of the world economic output

Jim Frederick · 1:47 AM

and huge efforts were made to make sure that all those vets had educations, jobs, families because they weren't 1% of america. they were every able-bodied man (and many women) in the us

Jim Frederick · 1:48 AM

low interest home loans, installment plan car-buying, the suburbanization of america are all, arguably, post-war (and thus veteran benefit) innovations

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

All right - let's move to PTSD by answering some questions / comments from the audience.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

But first I have to make one point. I feel that the growing understanding of PTSD is a lot like the current understanding of concussions. We don't really know - we just know it's really bad.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Charlotte Greensit

“PTSD worsened by long tours, no WW2-style R&R?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Charlotte Greensit

“Would love to hear about emotional toll on soldiers, too, especially how compares to WW2 and Vietnam”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:50 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“Are we going to Tawk about the positive results that Transcendental Meditation has had on veterans with PTSD?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

Blake, start droppong some facts / anecdotes

Jim Frederick · 1:51 AM

that's right, we don't know. which leads right to the question about the difference between wwii and iraq deployments

Jim Frederick · 1:52 AM

in wwii, it was military policy not to leave troops on the front line for more than 90 days before they were retrived to the rear

Jim Frederick · 1:52 AM

in iraq and afghanistan, the notion of what a "front line" is changed to "outside the wire" and troops would frequently go "outside the wire" every day

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

I guess I'm trying to understand when exactly we stopped caring abouit their well being

Jim Frederick · 1:53 AM

and no battle compared with Normandy, but every day was a possible combat day. and so the long term effect of that versus wwii-style combat is just beginning to be understood

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

Do you think the military is as aggressive with PTSD as the NFL is with concussions?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

I mean, the NFL is changing MAJOR rules

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

I certainly hope the military begins an extensive program designed to help avoid, help identify and help treat PTSD.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“Here is a piece in HuffPo about some success... and the David Lynch Foundation has shown amazing results with vets with PTSD as well http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerry-chautin/transcendental-meditation_b_823063.html”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

good job, Blake. Maybe that's a start.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“and here is a nice testimonial on David's site... http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/military.html#video=4ziJMW0m2zU”

Jim Frederick · 1:57 AM

i think they legacy of these kinds of tours we are only beginning to understand. and it ties back to the suicide question. perhaps you don't need to be in a bang bang battle to suffer the same stress of war in a truly debilitating way

Jim Frederick · 1:58 AM

i must confess i do not have a whole lot of info or knowledge about TM used to treat PTSD. Blake would know a world more than I would

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

All right - here we are, it's 10:00 and we still haven't touched the military's impact on the populace, the psychology of patriotism, the emotional consequences of war coverage, and an assessment of Eisenhower's warning of the impending military-indu

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

strial complex

Jim Frederick · 2:00 AM

i'm game for a round three sometime soon if you are

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

absolutely!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

With this group we have right here, we could solve all the world's problems in less than 100 Tawks!

Jim Frederick · 2:01 AM

sure thing. happy to come back, and thanks to the audience and to you Jordan

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

Jim - I can't sufficiently express my appreciation for your knowledge, your insight and your nmastery of words.

Jim Frederick · 2:02 AM

that's very kind, it's been my pleasure

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

All right - I guess we'll see you all soon for round 3! Thanks for being here!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

I want to go out sharing some audience comments I saw earlier.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“My Father landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day. He never once in his life discussed his war experience with me.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“And he never wanted me to serve in Vietnam.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“But he was an excellent photographer and left hundreds of photos of the war to me. They tell their own story.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

Get em online for us, Rick.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

and if you are coming to the Tawk after the fact, please hit the top button in the upper left corner so you can make sense of it all.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

Good night!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Scott Stenholm

“Make sure you all tune for Jordan and I's discussion tomorrow night!”

Forum · 65

Forum· 65 comments

30 visitors

Charlotte GreensitMay 14, 2013, 12:52 AM★ Spotlighted

Would love to hear about emotional toll on soldiers, too, especially how compares to WW2 and Vietnam

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 12:53 AM

My condition: oy

Lucy DyerMay 14, 2013, 12:59 AM

ok i'm here now you may start

Blake IanMay 14, 2013, 1:02 AM★ Spotlighted

Are we going to Tawk about the positive results that Transcendental Meditation has had on veterans with PTSD?

Lucy DyerMay 14, 2013, 1:04 AM

i think the reason sexual assaults has gotten more news coverage,is cos people are finally startng to listen to people who have had this happen to them

Lucy DyerMay 14, 2013, 1:05 AM★ Spotlighted

that and the fact there is the internet - eg. twitter,facebook.. etc

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:11 AM★ Spotlighted

That, Jordan, is a great question.

Lucy DyerMay 14, 2013, 1:12 AM

seek? does anyone really "seek" military service or is it partly cos the uniform and what goes with it?

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:12 AM★ Spotlighted

There are definitely people who seek military service for the service.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:12 AM

I have friends.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:13 AM★ Spotlighted

Is it possible to know whether the problem was "worse" during the draft?

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:13 AM

In other words, is it the training or the self-selected grounp?

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:13 AM

Or group. Depending.

Charlotte GreensitMay 14, 2013, 1:13 AM★ Spotlighted

Isn't it more about the culture, the organization, their own rules than individuals?

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:14 AM★ Spotlighted

Choice vs. draft: of course, there are/were differences in personal inclinations.

Lucy DyerMay 14, 2013, 1:14 AM

the military service - no mater what country you come from - is the biggest cult in the world

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:15 AM

Cult or fraternity?

Lucy DyerMay 14, 2013, 1:15 AM

@david - cult

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:15 AM

Choice vs. draft: some chose, when drafted (or not) to fight in the streets instead of the jungle.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:16 AM

Yes, but most went when drafted, or figured out a way to get around the draft (like educational deferments). If it was "worse" during the draft, it may have something

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:16 AM

to do with the training. If it's "worse" now, it may have something to do with who is joining.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:17 AM

Or it might just be that prior the '70s, it was a different world.

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:17 AM

Prior to the 90s. How old are you, out of curiousity?

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:18 AM

I'm 42. But I meant prior to the '70s because that's when the draft was de-instituted.

Lucy DyerMay 14, 2013, 1:18 AM

define this "service" you speak of.....

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:19 AM

You missed the beauty, revolution, horrors and mistakes of the 60s. And you missed the draft - lucky you!

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:20 AM★ Spotlighted

I did. Although my father was a professional folk singer (played with Dylan and Peter Paul & Mary). And, of course, now is a Tea Party activist, so the folk police came and took his guitars.

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:22 AM

They took Dylan's, too, after Newport. So he's in good company

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:22 AM

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:23 AM

Yeah, but they served my father with a restraining order (printed, of course, on recycled hemp paper and with soy-based ink) prohibiting him from getting within 50 feet of

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:23 AM

"The Bitter End" in the Village.

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:24 AM

Take a position and pay a price - that's the name of the game for having beliefs.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:24 AM

Yes, indeed... ;)

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:27 AM

Whoa!

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:27 AM

Hey, that's what I said.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:28 AM

A LOT more soldiers around, though.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:28 AM

But so much for "The Greatest Generation..."

Jordan SudyMay 14, 2013, 1:29 AM

that is really amazing

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:29 AM

So the sensitivity training is finally working, huh?

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:30 AM

I guess to some degree they will get in "more" trouble if they prey on foreign women, right?

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

My Father landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day. He never once in his life discussed his war experience with me.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:31 AM

By that I mean there are tons of NGOs waiting to find things that the US does wrong. But a woman serving in the US military has put herself in harms way, so to speak (that's not me talking, that's my impression of an NGO).

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

And he never wanted me to serve in Vietnam.

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:33 AM★ Spotlighted

But he was an excellent photographer and left hundreds of photos of the war to me. They tell their own story.

Blake IanMay 14, 2013, 1:35 AM★ Spotlighted

Wow, interesting point I have never considered before Jim...

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:37 AM

I think there has to be. Wasn't the guy who shot up Fort Hood a psychiatrist? If he's the guy screening...

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:41 AM

(And, of course, Jordan wants the guys running the VA system to be in charge of all of our health care. But I digress...)

Charlotte GreensitMay 14, 2013, 1:42 AM★ Spotlighted

PTSD worsened by long tours, no WW2-style R&R?

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:45 AM

Good point. And, of course, they sexually harass every woman around...

Blake IanMay 14, 2013, 1:54 AM★ Spotlighted

Here is a piece in HuffPo about some success... and the David Lynch Foundation has shown amazing results with vets with PTSD as well http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerry-chautin/transcendental-meditation_b_823063.html

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:54 AM

And I'm fairly sure the survival rate from seriously traumatic injuries has increased, so people are coming home more "physically" wounded, as well.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:54 AM

Instead of simply being killed.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:54 AM

I think that

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:55 AM

I think that's kind of a glib comparison.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:55 AM

There's no way a concussion for an NFL player could every approach the trauma that a soldier faces, nor can the military reduce the trauma of war.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:56 AM

Or at least get them better helmets.

Blake IanMay 14, 2013, 1:56 AM★ Spotlighted

and here is a nice testimonial on David's site... http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/military.html#video=4ziJMW0m2zU

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:58 AM

Do the pilots of drones suffer in similar rates?

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 1:58 AM

Only C3PO

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:58 AM

Because they're not in physical danger when in "battle."

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 1:59 AM

I'm just picturing an ex-Green Beret in a saffron robe handing out flowers at the airport, now.

David KaufmanMay 14, 2013, 2:00 AM

What "impending"? It was 70% of the economy!

Rick RosnerMay 14, 2013, 2:01 AM

Thanks, guys - I'm learning things!

Scott StenholmMay 14, 2013, 2:02 AM★ Spotlighted

Make sure you all tune for Jordan and I's discussion tomorrow night!

Blake IanSep 4, 2017, 3:47 PM

Hey there