Jordan Birnbaum

Host

The US Military & The Human Condition Part III

Aug 22, 2013·51 visitors

Jim Frederick

Cohost

Stage· 216 messages

Aug 22, 2013

In our 3rd installment, Jim and I tackle the psychology and impact of patriotism, the ramifications of war coverage, and the state of the military-industrial complex.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

Mr. Frederick, I presume?

Jim Frederick · 1:00 AM

indeed

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

So great to be here again with you!

Jim Frederick · 1:00 AM

yes, honored to be doing round 3

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

who knew we had so much to say?

Jim Frederick · 1:00 AM

well, i knew i can talk and talk and talk

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

so before we begin, where exactly on the planet are you at this moment?

Jim Frederick · 1:01 AM

i am in buenos aires

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

OK - adds a little international flavor - I like it

Jim Frederick · 1:01 AM

si!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

OK -so our jumping off point is the psychology of patriotism

Jim Frederick · 1:02 AM

right

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

and what impact it has oin our collective behavior

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

I suppose my first question is a hypothetical

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

if an attack happens in North Dakota, is it reasonable for me to have a different reaction than I would if that same thing happened in Canada a few miles North?

Jim Frederick · 1:03 AM

sure, i would think so, especially if the attack were clearly a political statement or politically motivated

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anyus Grasso

“Damn, I'm in Buenos Aires! hahaha.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

what about our emotional connections, independent of politics? There it makes less sense, though, right?

Jim Frederick · 1:05 AM

a human tragedy is a tragedy no matter where it happens, but if an attack is of such a magnitude that it threatens our personal way of life, then I think what we would call a patriotic response is normal

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

★ Spotlighted from Blake Ian

“FYI people - Jim Frederick is my favorite Instagram feed in the recent months. http://instagram.com/jim_frederick”

Jim Frederick · 1:06 AM

and not to have a self preservation and community and nation preservation instinct kick in would, I think, be abnormal, no?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:06 AM

Yes, I guess I'm trying to understand how the attack happening in Canada would feel any different to me.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

I don't think it would.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

I'd feel the same need for response

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

maybe it's a specious argument, but that's kind of the point

Jim Frederick · 1:08 AM

i guess, to me, it depends on magnitude. 9/11 felt of such a magnitude that for a good long time, some fundamental questions about the preservation of the republic were in doubt. there are very few attacks since then that have come even close.

Jim Frederick · 1:08 AM

i think the nation, in fact, overreacted to the boston marathon bombers

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

Yes, although is that actually a function of the media or the populace?

Jim Frederick · 1:09 AM

i think its all a circle. the media feeds the populace, the populace feeds the media

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“maybe an example further away from us like U.S. vs. Indonesia or something? I think Canada would be similar because we are so close to them? I am abnormal and I think all of it is awful no matter where in the world this violence happens..”

Jim Frederick · 1:10 AM

and i think the police overreacted when they put a metro area of 1 million people on lockdown over a couple of punks with homemade bombs

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

At this point, I feel like behavior is motivated by fear of the public reaction more than desire to make sound decisions

Jim Frederick · 1:11 AM

i know they are going to say, better safe than sorry, but "proportionate response" is supposed to be one of law enforcement professionals' core compentencies

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

Well, OWS would probably have something to say about that...

Jim Frederick · 1:12 AM

i think you are right about that. there is a fear of the worst case scenario that overrides all mathematical understanding of the probability that a worst case scenario will happen

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

So back to patriotism -do you think we have a psychological need for community that drives a sense of patriotism in people?

Jim Frederick · 1:13 AM

short answer: yes

Jim Frederick · 1:13 AM

do you want a longer answer?

Jim Frederick · 1:13 AM

:-)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

So does this represent an asset, a liability, or both?

Jim Frederick · 1:13 AM

Are emoticons allowed? I almost never use them

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

no penalties for emoticons

Jim Frederick · 1:14 AM

Definitely both an asset and a liability. i think patriotism, love of country, is good. i think that belonging is good, i think that pride and liking who you and your tribe is are all good

Jim Frederick · 1:15 AM

where we and other countries run into trouble is when love of country overrides all else, when tribalism devolves into something that prevents self-introspection and or compassion for other groups

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

Let's assume for the sake of argument that scientists have it right and evolution is real

Jim Frederick · 1:16 AM

"For the sake of argument" I like that

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

I thought you might. So the need for community is something that emerged in order for us to survive.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

I guess the tipping point comes when that psycholigcal need can become manipulated

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

and that's when we run into problems

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

so the ultimate question is -is patriotism something we are evolving away from?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

or ought to be - and beginning to think of ourselves more in terms ofg a species than a tribe?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“No argument Rachel a lot of this is caused by our stupid foreign policy which is run by the likes of Boeing, Carlisle Group, Lockheed, etc. Basically we've War Inc. that runs our foreign policy.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

we're getting to that...

Jim Frederick · 1:19 AM

well, i think that the "end of history" and "the end of nationalism" and all that hop-hah you heard at the end of the 1990s, you don't hear a lot of that anymore

Jim Frederick · 1:20 AM

i think we are a long long way from a civilization that recognizes anything other than the nation state as the primary mode of human organization

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

the hippie in me just whimpered

Jim Frederick · 1:21 AM

the only thing that might even come close is religion--and that would be worse

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

indeed

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

actually it seems like sports and religion, and maybe politics, are the other subjects of passion that fill a similar need

Jim Frederick · 1:22 AM

what we need it to be attacked by aliens, and that will user in a star trek-like rallying of the entire planet as one species

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:22 AM

there we go!

Jim Frederick · 1:23 AM

but then, the whole cycle would start over on an interplanetary scale, because we would oppress the romulans and be oppressed by the vulcans--or whoever (I am not really very good at my star trek)

Jim Frederick · 1:23 AM

sorry, feel free to bring me back, literally and figuratively, to earth

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

last question on subject - what happens to someone's sense of patriotism when they travel the world? How does it change?

Jim Frederick · 1:25 AM

as an american, i think you begin to realize just how powerful america is. i think until you travel widely, you don't really understand just how wide reaching america's influence is

Jim Frederick · 1:25 AM

who is president affects, arguably, every person on the planet--but 95% of them don't get to vote

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:25 AM

does it inspire pride or concern?

Jim Frederick · 1:26 AM

so I would say that it actually makes you a bit more humble, because you see more closely the good--and the bad--that this massive power has, and why a lot of people resent it

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“which is why America needs to lead the way in demilitarization”

Jim Frederick · 1:27 AM

pride is not quite the right word. something akin to pride. i do still have a belief that, as churchill said, the us is a country that will always do the right thing--after it has exhausted all other options

Jim Frederick · 1:27 AM

but more concern than pride

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

OK -so let's bring this all back to the military

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Yes! I was in Honduras when Obama was elected the first time, and the people all said, "Now, let's see what Obama will do for us."”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

describe how p[atriotism factors into military planning

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Hmm...not sure that it matters all that much who is the President. Seems the same billionaires and corporations run the show no matter which puppet is in office”

Jim Frederick · 1:28 AM

on the part of military planners themselves?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

across the board strategy - recruitment, training, deployment

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Obama's election gave us something ethereal - hope. For what that's worth now.”

Jim Frederick · 1:30 AM

there is an arrogance to the us military brass to this day that is pretty nuts considering how, shall we say "mixed" the results of the past dozen years have been

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

do you think a sense of patriotism and power make them delusional?

Jim Frederick · 1:30 AM

patriotism is employed to generate recruits, and there is a general presumption that because the us military is so much bigger than everybody else's, that it is de facto better and more effective

Jim Frederick · 1:31 AM

i think delusion is an interesting word; i think there are aspects of the us military's visions of its own powers that are, to this day, yes, delusional

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:32 AM

are most recruits driven primarily by a sense of duty?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:32 AM

or do you think something else drives it, like personality or life circumstances

Jim Frederick · 1:32 AM

a complicated question! let me answer it in a different way, which I think hits at some media culpability too

Jim Frederick · 1:33 AM

the book i wrote about the iraq war concerned a unit from the 101st Airborne division

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Rachel, not necessarily. They recruit a lot of people with few other options and not much sense/perspective.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“so do they recruit people with MORE patriotism to begin with and then strengthen that during the training process of these soldiers?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Aside from the most massive and wasteful military in history we don't have to many other bragging rights. I love the country but I hate how it's being rundown”

Jim Frederick · 1:34 AM

in doing research for the book, i was STUNNED by the number of 19 and 20 and 21 year olds who cited band of brothers and or saving private ryan as THE reason they joined the us army and the 101st specifically

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

so I wonder whether that same sense of brotherhood might have been fulfilled by volunteering at an orphanage? (shout out to Rebecca for making this point to me)

Jim Frederick · 1:34 AM

and a lot of them would conclude by saying: this shjt ain't nothing like a spielberg movie

Jim Frederick · 1:35 AM

i don't think there are a whole lot of movies glamorizing and glorifying the work being done at orphanages with the same ruthless effectiveness that band of brothers does

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

oh, i agree. but the point is that we direct the human need for purpose and comunity into a violent direction, instead of a productive one

Jim Frederick · 1:37 AM

you have just hit upon a seriously troubling aspect of our society

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

yeah, and I guess I'm also wonderiing whether patriotism is sometimes just a cover for some very dark stuff

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Politicians, mainly on one side of the aisle, use the same playbook as the Nazis: if someone dares question going to war question their patriotism. Look at the backlash the Dixie Chicks got for criticizing Dubya going into war”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

Seth's comment being the next logical point

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“The media leads people to where they want to be led. That's a sad fact of the human condition.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

backed up by Rick. (smart folks)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Bingo! WHY are we SO violent ALL THE TIME? Even social issues are couched in violent terms!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

OK - so let's a little bit more about the media.

Jim Frederick · 1:39 AM

of which i am guilty of being a card carrying member

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

The implications of war coverage on the populace, the military and the media itself seem infinite

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

let's start with the media. what is it like for you to be in the middle of all this?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

I mean, what imopact on your state of being does investigating the Iraq War have on you and your colleagues?

Jim Frederick · 1:41 AM

i think that in 20 or 30 years time or less, the era of the iraq afghanistan wars will be thought of as a very dark period for the notion of an independent press

Jim Frederick · 1:41 AM

if such a thing even exists, or people want such a thing to exist anymore

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

is there a divide in the media between "legit" and "sell-outs?"

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

do you guys feel it?

Jim Frederick · 1:42 AM

i think there was a serious abdication of the press's supposed critical function in challenging power during this period, from which i am not sure it has recovered

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Sorry for using the term "news" with Faux News”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“lol Fixed News, Foxaganda”

Jim Frederick · 1:43 AM

legits and sell-outs? hmm, no. there are many divides, but that's not one i would say comes up a lot

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

OK - I know a lot of War correspondents have lost their lives, and some have gone into emotional chaos. Does that create a sense of brotherhood akin to the military?

Jim Frederick · 1:44 AM

yes, thanks for introducing this notion. i realize i think i may be even a bit harsh on my own profession

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

your profession is too big to generalize! It's ALL true.

Jim Frederick · 1:45 AM

i should and would like to point out that there are tens of thousands of very brave men and women who go out into dangerous situations that most people can't fathom with the still very noble goal of finding out the truth

Jim Frederick · 1:46 AM

and these journalists see a lot of bad stuff and expose themselves to intense danger and often they become damaged themselves because all they ever wanted was to find true things out and tell the world about them

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

I imagine that sometimes you feel that work is honored by the media and the populace, and other times it is not, right?

Jim Frederick · 1:48 AM

and that all creates an intense community. and to your second question, there are times, yes, when despair sets in. when the person who has been risking their lives to cover a new dirty war in africa can't even get the story into his or her own paper

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:48 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I think most Americans are overworked and underpaid and by the time they finally get some free time, they would rather watch reality TV rather than a serious program. If we had more time to relax and enjoy ourselves it would be a different story”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:48 AM

I HOPE that's true, Seth!

Jim Frederick · 1:48 AM

and the editor says, that's cause no one is reading it, it's a calculated decision. which leads that correspondent to wonder, "why am i doing this?"

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

Yeah - it raises an interesting question as to whether the media should lead or serve.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

should someone be making the decision -I don't care if you WANT to hear about it - you NEED to hear about it...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“we need more journalists like this telling the truth and breaking through the mainstream media imo”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

agreed

Jim Frederick · 1:50 AM

not to be overly reductionist about it, but journalists really do talk about dessert and broccoli. how much broccoli (unrest in egypt) can readers really take without some dessert (kardashians). i know people love bashing the media, but it is easy to

Jim Frederick · 1:50 AM

get cynical about media consumers, too

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:51 AM

I completely agree. It's not a one-way street.

Jim Frederick · 1:51 AM

maybe when there were three networks, they could all collude to give you the news they paternalistically thought you needed. but viewers have too many options now, and biz pressures are too great to be so high minded. news orgs need to compete with

Jim Frederick · 1:51 AM

entertainment for eyeballs

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

but it still begs the question - is there a place for responsible leadership that overrides a need for ratings?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:52 AM

do you think Americans would be in a better place culturally if we were kept abreast of the global realities

Jim Frederick · 1:52 AM

there should be, but when media orgs are part of public companies that report quarterly earnings, there's very little time for the long view like that

Jim Frederick · 1:53 AM

to your second question: undoubtedly yes

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:53 AM

well, should we as a citizenry find a way to demand the independent federal funding of independent media? Or bring back restrictions on media monopolies?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“yeah but I don't really see a BALANCE of dessert and broccoli... mostly dessert”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Jordan why didn't you tell me dessert was being served?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:54 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“Eat your broccoli first Seth! lol”

Jim Frederick · 1:55 AM

i think different models should be discussed. i think despite the MANY problems they are having, partly stemming from their monopolistic situation, the BBC is a global treasure

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:55 AM

right, but don't 6 corporations own almost all of the media outlets in our country?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:56 AM

that can't help, can it?

Jim Frederick · 1:56 AM

yes, and this is a huge problem. there is pretty much no such thing as an independent, non-corporate (and by corporate, I mean Fortune 100) media. and we as a civilization are the poorer for it

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

OK - well within the construct of our media reality, how does war coverage affect the military in its decision-making?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:57 AM

are they more careful?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

do they consider the medioa implications right along with the strategic ones?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:58 AM

or is it more about avoiding coverage?

Jim Frederick · 1:58 AM

i think in the micro, there is always an understanding that the media, and if not the media, then an iraqi with a camera phone might be watching, which leads to a bit more caution

Jim Frederick · 1:59 AM

but on the macro, i think no, i think it is pretty clear that the white house and the pentagon can plan and do pretty much whatever it wants and it will get no interference, and very likely support, from the mainstream media

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“so how do you get different models in the mixed and try them out... funding wise?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:59 AM

isn't that sufficient justification to address what rachel is asking?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I'm taking this e-course on the history of human civilization, and basically, all of these things that we have problems with are social constructs. Why don't we just construct new ones? It can't be THAT hard.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“@Rebecca - i think it's the weight of history that makes the ship difficult to turn.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:00 AM

Yeah, history is a fat fucker.

Jim Frederick · 2:01 AM

absolutely. i think kickstarter is interesting. and al jazeera englsh which is just starting up is actually the most classic model of them all: funding media from a wealth source that has nothing to do with journalsm

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

like Bezos?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:01 AM

even tho Amazon is now larger than many countries...

Jim Frederick · 2:01 AM

Bloomberg is always hiring journalists. but they are funded by their terminal biz, not their newsgathering

Jim Frederick · 2:01 AM

another perfect example

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

so real-life Citizen Kanes?

Jim Frederick · 2:02 AM

they hearsts made their real money from the utah silver mines

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

and isn't that what Rupert Murdoch is?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Used to be the "Big Three" networks were where everyone got their news from. So people got actual, unbiased news rather than party, talking points, aka propaganda”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:02 AM

so was news actually better when there was less competition?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:03 AM

it seems like it to me...altho I realize it's counter-intuitive

Jim Frederick · 2:04 AM

well, i also think we romanticize the journalism of the past and what it was. in reality, this notion that journalism stood for truth, justice, objectivity and all that is really just a 20th century invention

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:04 AM

Cronkite was a crook?!

Jim Frederick · 2:04 AM

so there was a golden era of about 80 years when the ink-stained wretches got to be all high minded about who they were and what they were doing

Jim Frederick · 2:05 AM

and that might have been the historical anomaly and not the norm

Jim Frederick · 2:05 AM

no cronkite was from the golden era that may arguably have been the anomaly.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:06 AM

OK - so what about the impact of war coverage on the populace? Does it make us de-sensitized or over-sensitized?

Jim Frederick · 2:06 AM

in the 1800s a newspaper editor would have laughed if you asked him if he was "objective" or interested in the "facts" or, god forbid, "the truth."

Jim Frederick · 2:07 AM

my opinion: after a couple of years, the populace just didn't want to hear about the war anymore

Jim Frederick · 2:07 AM

so i guess de-sensitized, if they tuned it out?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

I wonder if a change in how the reporting was conducted would have elicited a different response. What do you think?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“It's not the competition aspect Jordan...news should be a loss-leader like it was for years. The Big Three didn't expect to earn a profit from news it served a purpose. Now, since everything must make a profit: news stations and views stations are”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“@ Seth - I'm always going on about how the industrial model doesn't serve us well for social institutions, and news is another case where that appears to be true!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“@Rebecca exactly we HAVE to keep trying and keep fighting.. we can't just throw our hands up and say oh that's just the way it is we have been doing that for FAR too long :/”

Jim Frederick · 2:09 AM

i don't know. from 2006 onward, i was intimately involved in both the reporting and the presentation and the decisions about what did and did not run, and i don't know what i would have done a lot differently

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:09 AM

Do you think that print, television or the INternet was the most significant impactor on public perception?

Jim Frederick · 2:10 AM

i think there are studies that to this day show that TV is still far and away the most influential medium

Jim Frederick · 2:11 AM

sorry to the twitter mafia, of which i am a member. the overall reach still cannot compare with the idiot box

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

I wonder if anyone has ever done a psych study on how to make bad news more digestible...

Jim Frederick · 2:11 AM

maybe someday soonish, but tv is where people get their news

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:11 AM

OK - let's go out looking at the whole military industrial complex.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:12 AM

that is a link to Eisenhower's speech (that Seth alluded to earlier).

Jim Frederick · 2:12 AM

yes, i know it well

Jim Frederick · 2:13 AM

an amazing man and public servant and warrior, ike was

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:13 AM

So I think it's fair to say you have an expert opinion on the subject. How accurate was that speech?

Jim Frederick · 2:13 AM

frighteningly so. like, prophetic

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

do you think there is a widespread understanding among the military and the media that such is so?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“choose the stories and facts they WANT to hear? yeah I think that happens because we don't want to see the bad things”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:14 AM

rachel - get on it - figure out how to tell people what they need to hear and not have them run away!

Jim Frederick · 2:15 AM

probably not to the degree that it should be. the military industrial complex is like the financial industry. like the "too big to fail" stuff. when an industry becomes so big that it starts operating under its own logic: we need the new bomber

Jim Frederick · 2:15 AM

because all of these jobs, this whole industry is set up only to have an unending string of bombers

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

so are people's perceptions tied too heavily to their paychecks?

Jim Frederick · 2:16 AM

i'd say it is a little more subtle, but no less corrosive than that. it is a whole system so much bigger than just one voter saying my paycheck is at stake

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Jim our military has a bigger budget than the next twenty militaries combined and fighting two wars with over 200,000 troops, and then we wonder why we're in debt”

Jim Frederick · 2:17 AM

which is why the ike speech is so amazing: it is so generalized and almost epic and theoretical: we are building a machine it will be impossible to dismantly

Jim Frederick · 2:17 AM

dismantle

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

Yeah - that didn't end well in either The Terminator NOR The Matrix...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

Or Superman 3, for that matter...

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

OK - with those lame movie references, I think it is clear I am getting ready to wrap it up.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“LOL, Jordan.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

thanks for saving my ego, RWT!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

audience, thank you so much - you guys are amazing.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

and Jim, you are so fun to do this with!

Jim Frederick · 2:19 AM

yeah, amazing participation and commentary

Jim Frederick · 2:20 AM

many thanks. i had a great time--again

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

all right -we will be back I am sure.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Thank you both. Your work is important, Jim!”

Jim Frederick · 2:20 AM

thanks again to everyone and that's an over and out from me!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

Thank you all, and remember that you are NOT alone!

Forum · 154

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Blake IanAug 22, 2013, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

FYI people - Jim Frederick is my favorite Instagram feed in the recent months. http://instagram.com/jim_frederick

Anyus GrassoAug 22, 2013, 1:03 AM★ Spotlighted

Damn, I'm in Buenos Aires! hahaha.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:09 AM★ Spotlighted

maybe an example further away from us like U.S. vs. Indonesia or something? I think Canada would be similar because we are so close to them? I am abnormal and I think all of it is awful no matter where in the world this violence happens..

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:12 AM

But without that overreaction would they have been caught? And if we have no safety in public, what does that say about our society?

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:15 AM

Maybe a little overreaction but seriously are you just going to have people go about their business as potential hostages or perhaps even being killed by a lunatic who has no value for human life and had already wounded nearly 200 people--4 killed

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:16 AM

do think we will ever see a day when nationalism ceases to exist and world-ism (?) lol takes over. meaning nations no longer divided and we are all one? or is that too idealistic?

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:16 AM

but how much terrorism is caused by us going into other countries unwanted and killing innocent people @seth? it is awful but the cycle need to stop somewhere

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:17 AM

I don't think most of the people were upset about the time off, esp. the kids who got a three-day weekend

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:17 AM

And oh how it stretched the news cycle.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:17 AM

p.s. hate the word terrorism as that is an emotion not an even

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:17 AM

*event

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:19 AM★ Spotlighted

No argument Rachel a lot of this is caused by our stupid foreign policy which is run by the likes of Boeing, Carlisle Group, Lockheed, etc. Basically we've War Inc. that runs our foreign policy.

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:19 AM

Where no where near there yet, @Jordan.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:19 AM

gah! great movie @seth! I agree... and I think that us being seen as a "super power" or whatever we should be the first ones to set an example

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:19 AM

We're

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:19 AM

That is why our foreign policy is War, War, and more War. We'll find out why we're going to war later.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:20 AM

@seth but until then all we get "we are going to war for patriotism." blanket statement

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:20 AM

The biggest reason why we're in debt is because of our ridiculous military spending, bases in over 120 countries around the World, half a billion spent on weapons that were never even made or used. It's a recipe for disaster

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:21 AM

darn. :(

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:21 AM

i know right? jordan.. :/

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:22 AM

@seth and then people blame the poor for not being able to feed themselves?? lol um hello? talk to those who are taking all the money

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:22 AM

sadly science and logic are not in that list.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:22 AM

Eisenhower warned of the power of the military-industrial complex and he hit the nail right on the head

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:23 AM

star trek needs to become real. I just worry like ok if there are good aliens.. no way they'd show their face to us rn.. we just shoot em out of the sky and ask questions later.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:23 AM

haha Trekkie speak.. love it ;)

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:24 AM

right their is a news channel that is devoted to distracting people from how they're really getting screwed

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:24 AM★ Spotlighted

Sorry for using the term "news" with Faux News

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:25 AM

I'd really love these discussions more if there was action attached at the end, somehow.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:25 AM

you will be forgive @Seth.. but Fox news just smiled lol!

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:26 AM★ Spotlighted

which is why America needs to lead the way in demilitarization

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:26 AM★ Spotlighted

lol Fixed News, Foxaganda

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:26 AM

haha much better Seth ;)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:27 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes! I was in Honduras when Obama was elected the first time, and the people all said, "Now, let's see what Obama will do for us."

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:27 AM★ Spotlighted

Hmm...not sure that it matters all that much who is the President. Seems the same billionaires and corporations run the show no matter which puppet is in office

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:28 AM

It made me angry, and it made me sad. Why aren't Hondurans doing for themselves? But at the same time, the US has a big thumbprint all over Central America.

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:28 AM★ Spotlighted

Obama's election gave us something ethereal - hope. For what that's worth now.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:29 AM

But then you look at Egypt who is know TELLING the American people look we love America.. but your president supports terrorism so some countries get the corruption seth and my friend in Italy says the same thing although she says her country is just

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:29 AM

as corrupt

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:30 AM

yeah false hope is still.. false and it let's people down twice as hard.. as in Obama's administration

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:30 AM

Perhaps it's better to have loved and lost . . . .but to have hope and then lose it?

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:31 AM

@Jim...the US doesn't hold nearly the power it once did. Our money is in the toilet, our schools are lousy, and our economy is being outperformed by China, Canada and most of Europe. Even Brazil is kicking our butt.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:31 AM

It did, Rick. It really did. I was so proud to be serving my country then hoping a new leaf was turning over. We all got together and watched the inauguration speech and cried.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

so do they recruit people with MORE patriotism to begin with and then strengthen that during the training process of these soldiers?

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:31 AM★ Spotlighted

Aside from the most massive and wasteful military in history we don't have to many other bragging rights. I love the country but I hate how it's being rundown

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:32 AM★ Spotlighted

Rachel, not necessarily. They recruit a lot of people with few other options and not much sense/perspective.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:32 AM

that's because Brazil stands up for their rights to education

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:32 AM

I agree, Seth. It's heartbreaking.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:33 AM

I love the "idea" of what this country is supposed to stand for.. although I am not really sure if we ever really stood for and backed those ideas

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:34 AM

media runs the masses doesn't it scary!

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:35 AM★ Spotlighted

Politicians, mainly on one side of the aisle, use the same playbook as the Nazis: if someone dares question going to war question their patriotism. Look at the backlash the Dixie Chicks got for criticizing Dubya going into war

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:36 AM

well look at how many war movies and shows are out rn and popular now maybe more super hero movies but still again with the terrorist plot that someone wants to take over the country they are all the same fear producing thing I think it's sad

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:36 AM

LOL, Jim. It's hard to make volunteerism sexy - it doesn't have guns. ;D

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:36 AM

ugh that Dixie Chicks thing pissed me off Seth.. but it was George W. so not surprised

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:37 AM

Country fans started burning their records, stations refused to play their music. Kind of reminded me of a book burning by the Nazis

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:37 AM★ Spotlighted

The media leads people to where they want to be led. That's a sad fact of the human condition.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:37 AM★ Spotlighted

Bingo! WHY are we SO violent ALL THE TIME? Even social issues are couched in violent terms!

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:37 AM

lol @ Rebecca well Erin Brocovich did it you just need to wear skimpy clothes lol and belittle your gender :p

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:38 AM

Seth - yup, it did. Natalie Mains recently did an interview in Rolling Stone about that time; it was rough on them.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:39 AM

Rick the media is just made up of a bunch of prostitutes who will go to wherever they can make money. Don't give them too much credit...they are not that smart. Look at how much attention the Kardashians, Honey Boo Boo, and Jersey Shore get, that's

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:39 AM

Natalie is amazing her music has become more activistic because of that I think.. so suppression doesn't work on those who are paying attention

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:40 AM

Not all media is the same, Seth.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:40 AM

that's not a plan of the media, just people looking for entertainment that is on par with Jerry Springer

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:40 AM

@ Rachel, I can't even get my students to come to 5K class - they're not going to go volunteer unless there are guns or crashing cars!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:41 AM

True, Rick - and also, Seth has a point. My sister will openly tell me that she DOES NOT CARE and wants to watch Dr. Phil.

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:41 AM

But to find informative, impartial reporting - that's the trick.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:41 AM

@Rebecca that is very sad and again makes me wonder if this "patriotism" bit is something our children should be learning.. I mean they grow up with army video games and movies now and it is scary that they seem to care more about "killing the enemy"

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:42 AM

True, Rick there is good, quality TV like PBS, Discovery, etc. but unfortunately most people don't watch those shows. The media will give people what they want

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:42 AM

Or you could say: gives them what they deserve.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:43 AM

I don't do shooting games and I don't even do public education anymore. Whitewashed history and blind patriotism looks a lot like church to me - no, thank you.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:43 AM

Ouch, RIck - that's probably the truth, right there.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:43 AM

That is why PBS and NPR must continue to receive funding since they actually report news rather than prostituting themselves to being a gossip channel

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:44 AM

Sometimes you do get what you deserve. And if you are stupid and expend no thoughtful effort beyond opening a bag of Cheetos - well?

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:44 AM

Yeah Rebecca me and my sis were just trying to explain to my nephew (1st grade this yr) why she wants to homeschool him but he loves the social part of school tough convo for a 6 yr old but need to start somewhere

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:45 AM

Idiocracy, anyone?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:45 AM

LOL, Rick! Brawndo - it's gots what plants crave!

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:45 AM

@rick but I think the American people just feel so beaten down or like they CAN'T change anything anymore that they retreat into tv shows etc.. Idiocracy was a great movie lol

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:47 AM

Laziness is a poor excuse for not thinking.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:47 AM

yes the soldiers are VERY brave.. I just feel like they don't even know what they are getting into BECAUSE of the propaganda of blind patriotism

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:47 AM

agreed Rick.. I just think they have been conditioned to laziness for decades we have been going down hill for like 50 years and then they pass it on to another generation and another etc..

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:48 AM★ Spotlighted

I think most Americans are overworked and underpaid and by the time they finally get some free time, they would rather watch reality TV rather than a serious program. If we had more time to relax and enjoy ourselves it would be a different story

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:48 AM

that's true too which again goes back to a corrupt system where people are now forced to work 2-3 jobs

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:48 AM

In Europe 6 weeks vacation mandatory, in the US some workers get less than a week

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:49 AM

@Seth - sorry, still no excuse for not thinking, at least.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:49 AM★ Spotlighted

we need more journalists like this telling the truth and breaking through the mainstream media imo

Lucy DyerAug 22, 2013, 1:49 AM

SO sorry i'm late!! fell asleep :-) what i miss?

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:49 AM

no body's reading it.. well maybe they would if news stations and publications actually covered REAL news again

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:49 AM

the coming of the messiah

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:49 AM

I'm not saying I'm in favor of what they do Rick...just saying why they do it

Lucy DyerAug 22, 2013, 1:49 AM

but he's already here,Rick

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:50 AM

not for us jews

Lucy DyerAug 22, 2013, 1:50 AM

oh i dont know.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:50 AM

@Seth I am with you on this.. change cannot occur without first observing the problem

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:50 AM

lol Rick

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:51 AM★ Spotlighted

yeah but I don't really see a BALANCE of dessert and broccoli... mostly dessert

Lucy DyerAug 22, 2013, 1:51 AM

mm i shall leave you guys too it then. TTFN :-)

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:52 AM

Most Americans live on a treadmill: underpaid, overworked, and fed a diet of BS by billionaires and big business, who want to stay in power and convince us they're on our side

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:52 AM

Did someone mention desert?

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:52 AM

Seth - that's why God made revolutions - and revolutionaries.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:53 AM

These Tawks are getting better and better

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:53 AM★ Spotlighted

Jordan why didn't you tell me dessert was being served?

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:54 AM★ Spotlighted

Eat your broccoli first Seth! lol

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:54 AM

lol I actually like broccoli Rachel...guess that makes me un-American

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:55 AM

me too and cauliflower.. more than a big mac (ok WAY MORE) we must be shunned lol

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:55 AM★ Spotlighted

so how do you get different models in the mixed and try them out... funding wise?

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:57 AM

or yes money out of the news media and politics.. it all comes back to that doesn't it? only then can our voices be heard

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:57 AM

Clinton went along with a Republican plan to allow media stations to control massive amounts of power in an area...prior to this a company could not really dominate a market

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 1:58 AM

BTW, not all revolutions need to spill blood. But someone WILL generally bleed.

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 1:59 AM

What do they call those parties now "Republicrat"? the two have merged because of money although there are the few who are trying to do good.. but hard to do with the stronghold the others have rn

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 1:59 AM★ Spotlighted

I'm taking this e-course on the history of human civilization, and basically, all of these things that we have problems with are social constructs. Why don't we just construct new ones? It can't be THAT hard.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 1:59 AM

The worst thing that happened was when Fixed came on the air and threw out actual news and introduced propaganda networks. MSNBC does almost the same thing but not as bad, and CNN doesn't know what to do

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

@Rebecca - i think it's the weight of history that makes the ship difficult to turn.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:00 AM★ Spotlighted

Used to be the "Big Three" networks were where everyone got their news from. So people got actual, unbiased news rather than party, talking points, aka propaganda

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:01 AM

and inventors and innovators have always been condemned... until we ABSOLUTELY need them.. just like truth tellers

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:01 AM

And what is his game? Bezos, i mean

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:02 AM

Rick - yeah. The weight of the violence of our history makes it hard to breathe sometimes. But I keep studying to see if maybe we can find a different path.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:02 AM

As a result our politics were much more low key back in the 70's, 80's and 90's than today, when people hear fearmongerers on the air like Beck, Hannity, and Limbaugh

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:03 AM

@Rebecca - not to be corny, but maybe Necessity is the mother of invention - and we don;t quite need the big change yet . . .?

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:03 AM★ Spotlighted

@Rebecca exactly we HAVE to keep trying and keep fighting.. we can't just throw our hands up and say oh that's just the way it is we have been doing that for FAR too long :/

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:03 AM

Don't get me started on Murdoch: his papers and stations are a mix of raunch and Republicanism--even Jerry Springer would say his companies are sleazy

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:03 AM

I resist that thought, but it has occurred to me. :D Stupid monkeys!

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:04 AM

Or don't recognize the need, yet . . .

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:04 AM

I think we need it more than ever.. like what do people NEED in this country fighting their back yard?? shit is too serious right now to ignore imo

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:04 AM

Big change will require big, immediate, paunful causation.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:05 AM

Rachel, it's serious to people who read and watch. It's not too uncomfortable yet for people who don't.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:05 AM★ Spotlighted

It's not the competition aspect Jordan...news should be a loss-leader like it was for years. The Big Three didn't expect to earn a profit from news it served a purpose. Now, since everything must make a profit: news stations and views stations are

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:06 AM

@Rick I get that but it is SO illogical to me just like climate change people will wait till the last tree is on fire before going "now what do we do?" like there is a REASON to think ahead and plan ahead it's pure logic (maybe I am part vulcan lol)

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:06 AM

I'm not sure I'll still be around to see the Big Change, but do believe my sons will.

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:07 AM

the same. We only get views of commentators and a whole lot of entertainment: just look at how the media went wild over the Zimmerman trial

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:07 AM

Definitely an important trial, but so much of it became reality TV.

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:07 AM

We need a slightly toned down version of the ELF to help deal with environmental issues.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:08 AM★ Spotlighted

@ Seth - I'm always going on about how the industrial model doesn't serve us well for social institutions, and news is another case where that appears to be true!

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:08 AM

and how barley anyone covered Manning's trial

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:08 AM

Even on stations like CNN they were having celebrities "weigh in" on the topic. Sorry how is that news

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:09 AM

Totally agreed Rebecca. News cannot be run well when it must make a profit. Kind of like education in that way

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:10 AM

I think people don't want to feel "uncomfortable" or think of things that are too "unseemly" when it comes to war and real life but they will buy a movie ticket for it?

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:11 AM

With all the info people have at their fingertips you would think they would be well-informed but it's quite the opposite since much of the info is entertainment and people can listen to propaganda stations without a lick of news or facts

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:11 AM

Or prisons. Or health care...

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:12 AM★ Spotlighted

choose the stories and facts they WANT to hear? yeah I think that happens because we don't want to see the bad things

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:12 AM

@rebecca all about money again prisons, health care, education, housing crisis, etc..

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:14 AM

Some things the govt has to do and everything else corporations can do: companies can make paper towels, own restaurants, etc. but when you've a company controlling your healthcare, education, prisons, public transport, it's going to fail everytime

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:15 AM

I'm on it Jordan! :)

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:16 AM★ Spotlighted

Jim our military has a bigger budget than the next twenty militaries combined and fighting two wars with over 200,000 troops, and then we wonder why we're in debt

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:17 AM

I don't onder. Have you been in embassy buildings in many countries? Holy fuck, that is a lot of wasted money!

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:18 AM

Why do we've 60,000 troops in Germany, 50,000 in Korea, 40,000 in Japan. We've not fought in any of those countries in over 60 years. Why is the American taxpayer footing the bill to defend these other countries. Let them defend themselves

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:18 AM★ Spotlighted

LOL, Jordan.

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:18 AM

We DO need to defend Sushi!

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:19 AM

@Seth and a lot of countries WANT to defend themselves again Egypt doesn't want our help... Mostly because of what they think of the administration in charge but still we force ourselves into these places and wonder why "terrorists" are created?

Rick RosnerAug 22, 2013, 2:19 AM

Thanks to the two Js

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:20 AM

Thanks Jim and Jordan! :) Obviously a topic that needs lengthy discussion.. :)

Rebecca Westbrook TokerAug 22, 2013, 2:20 AM★ Spotlighted

Thank you both. Your work is important, Jim!

Rachel McDonnellAug 22, 2013, 2:20 AM

yes thank you for getting the truth out there Jim and being willing to sit down with us and explain some of this to us :)

Seth HochmanAug 22, 2013, 2:21 AM

Way to end it Jordan