Jordan Birnbaum

Host

The Worst Anniversary

Sep 12, 2013·61 visitors

Rebecca Westbrook Toker

Cohost

Stage· 234 messages

Sep 12, 2013

Rebecca and I remember what we experienced on September 11, and reflect on how our lives and country have changed so dramatically ever since. 2013 is beginning to look a lot like 1984....

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

Hi Becca-

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

Hello, all!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“I'm not sure Rebecca has angst, what with the happy bunnies and all.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

Hi everyone. I'm not exactly "happy" to be here for this one, but I am grateful.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:00 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“I got Jordan's angst all over me during a party in High School. Took forever to get it off.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:00 AM

Oh, Rick, if you only knew... :P

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

David - I thought we agreed not to go there...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:01 AM

All right - so I think whenever we remember 9/11, we have to differentiate bewteen the human experience, and the socio-economic, geo-political experience

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:02 AM

That's a good way to break it down.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:02 AM

So let's start human. Rebecca (and audience) - where were you?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:02 AM

Honestly, Jordan, I think that you, as a New Yorker, probably have a much more poignant story.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:03 AM

I was 18, in my first semester of college, in the middle of the country.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:03 AM

Much different.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

Yeah - it was bad for me. I was living at Union Square at the time, the furthest Southern spot that was not closed down after the attack.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Lucy Dyer

“and in plain English,JB? for us dim wits...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

human element - what it felt like. geo-political - Iraq, Homeland Security, Patriot Act, etc.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:04 AM

It borders on the ridiculous that the dorms at my college in Oklahoma were called "The Twin Towers." That was really scary for people who lived there. In retrospect, so silly...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:04 AM

So what I think is the most under noticed thing about 9/11 for the people living in NY

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

Is that we did not know that the 2nd plane was the last plane.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:05 AM

As it was happening, we were hearing about the Pentagon and the other plane, so for at least 4-6 hours, everyone was scared shitless that more was coming

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:06 AM

Jeez. But I think that hung over the entire country. Nobody knew that the 2nd plane was the last plane.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:06 AM

They closed down the bridges between Oklahoma and Texas over the Red River. No one knew what to do.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

Yes - I would imagine that every American city had a unique brand of angst on that day.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

the second thing that is seared in my memory is the smell

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:07 AM

I can't even imagine...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:07 AM

it smelled like the world was ending.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:08 AM

It must have LOOKED like the world was ending.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

the next day I was practically in Harlem (as far north in Manhattan as possible) and even up there it was difficult to breathe.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“At work, I remember I couldn't get on to almost any Websites...seems that a lot of the infrastructure for the nation's Internet went through the towers, plus the massive amounts of people trying to log on to find out about the plane crashes”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:08 AM

same experience

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:09 AM

We didn't even go to class. We all just huddled in the various department offices watching tiny TVs.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

So the city locked down everything south of 14th street which was exactly where I lived, soUnion Square became the unofficial gathering spot for the entire city.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:09 AM

The most overwhelming sensation that all NYers experienced was the need to be with other people.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:10 AM

I remember walking through the Square and making eye contact with strangers and feeling as though they were family, even though I had never seen them before.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:11 AM

Did you have feel the same need? were people huddling in groups?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I walked outside and a stock broker next door had some TV's in the window and I saw the first tower come crashing down--it was surreal”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:13 AM

Definitely. I was on the newspaper team at the time, and it seemed like people just...stuck together. Students moved from department office to department office. I think most of us slept in the newsroom, even though we were a weekly. publication

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:13 AM

Of course, everyone was so desperate to do something, but there wasn't really anything to do (especially that night). It was incredibly frustrating.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

The only thought was, "What the Hell happened?"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

Really

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

I think that was everywhere.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Swine.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:14 AM

In NY, I remember people headed over to the West Side highway just so they could cheer the responders heading down there. We were desperate for a sense of purpose.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:14 AM

@ Rick - who?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

I think part of the shock of a tragedy like that is that it shakes our entire conception of what is real, what matters, etc. I can't imagine getting an A in biology semed as important that night.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:16 AM

Yeah. I mean, we lined up in the square to give blood over the next few days, but there was really nothing that could be done from Oklahoma. And we had a flight school, and everything was grounded, but that seemed to intensify the fear.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:16 AM

Oh yes, the way things were handled led us to a terrible place.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“My comment about the celebrations in 'Palestine.'”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:17 AM

Ah. That makes more sense!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:17 AM

But I will always have faith in human nature because of how I saw people react in NY that night

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:18 AM

I think we are propagandized into believing that a tragedy would breed chaos, but I think the exact opposite is true - I think it breeds community

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

I think that the propaganda aspect is something we need to touch on, whenever you're ready.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:19 AM

I'm ready - go!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:19 AM

And, yes. People suddenly felt very...American. Very ONE.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:20 AM

Well, I think your recollections are important, and moving, and...crazy to really think about. My GOD, you were THERE!

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:20 AM

I wonder if we were feeling "American" or if we were feeling "Human." I'd love to believe the latter.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:21 AM

But I think our collective shock and horror, our sense of community was sorely abused.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:21 AM

I think we were feeling human but labeled it American because the propaganda began almost immediately.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:21 AM

In no uncertain terms.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:21 AM

I agree with your assessment

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:22 AM

And I think we have finally, after 12 years, grown tired of that kind of behavior.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:22 AM

I happened to be in Italy when the Oklahoma City bombings happened, and I could not believe how much sympathy the Italians were expressing to me. That helps feed my hope that we were feeling "human" and confused it with "patriotic."

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:23 AM

I think we have repeatedly been whipped into a fearful, xenophobic frenzy under the September 11 flag, and it's time to assess where that has brought us.'

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:23 AM

You know, in prepping for our Tawk tonight, I was thinking a lot about where we were as a country when 9/11 happened.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

Golly, Oklahoma City was also terrifying, but I was even more of a baby then than I was in 2001. I was in elementary school and they did a great job of confusing and terrifying us! :D

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

Where were we?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:24 AM

You're more qualified to give an answer - I was barely metacognitive. :D

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:24 AM

It's funny how when a white man bombed us in OKC we didn't need a Dept. Of Homeland Security or a Patriot Act...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:25 AM

You know, my first thought when it happened was, "This is homegrown terrorism."

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:25 AM

Anyway, back to where we were as a country.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:26 AM

Coming off the 2000 presidential election, it was already made very evident to us that blatant lying and cheating was the new normal.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:27 AM

So it's hard to argue that 9/11 sent us into a tailspin because we were already spinning

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:27 AM

Indeed.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:28 AM

So I feel like 9/11 poured gasoline on the fire (sorry for the terrible metaphor)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:28 AM

Yes.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

And so we were pumped full of fear to pass a series of laws that blatantly violate our Consitution.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:29 AM

Do you remember those color-coded danger warnings?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:29 AM

Um, yes. And my response was always, "What the fuck am I even supposed to do with that information?"

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

I live in OKLAHOMA.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:30 AM

(Not now, but then)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

It was so obvious what they were doing. And it scared me so much, not because I was scared of the "terrorists," but because I was scared of our own government.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:30 AM

I remember wondering whether Bush would declare Marshall Law and appoint himself permanent president

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rick Rosner

“Live in Oklahoma - isn't that some kind of contradiction?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:31 AM

Oh rick...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

Yes. I have always felt very, very uneasy about the whole thing. I don't believe that I know what happened (really), but I'm certain I never will.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:31 AM

@ Rick - That's why I moved. Yeesh, it's a backward place!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:32 AM

(The whole time I was serving in Honduras, I was like, this is SO MUCH like Oklahoma!)

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:32 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“I'm convinced that the only reason anybody lives in Akron is due to the Federal Witness Protection System.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:32 AM

So obviously there is a whole "Truther" movement that believes that our government was involved in staging the attacks. Have ever put any creedence into that?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:32 AM

LOL, David! I spent a couple of summers near Akron...you're probably right.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:33 AM

Um...I don't know. At this point, I wouldn't put it PAST them.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

I DON'T KNOW! That's the worst part! I don't know who to trust or believe! I mean, they've lied about everything since 9-11...

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:34 AM

I find it very difficult to believe. But I still don't understand how or why that 3rd building fell. SOMETHING happened.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:34 AM

Something happened. And no one will ever tell us the truth. That's like a slap in the face to me as an idealist.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

Yeah - I'm still waiting for them to release all the info on the JFK assassination....

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:35 AM

I WANT to believe. I WANT to live in a just nation. I WANT to be good. But none of this sits well with me.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:35 AM

Confession: I do believe JFK was taken out by Nixon.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:35 AM

;)

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:35 AM

Now THAT'S another Tawk.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

So here's something surprising to some people. To me, the 2nd scariest thing to happn as a result of 9/11 was Bill Maher being fired from Politically Incorrect.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:36 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“ugh that is how I feel today too.. like things have been so twisted for so long.. who the heck do you trust??”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:37 AM

I don't know if you guys recall, but he made a comment to the effect of: Stop saying that the men who flew planes into buildings to give their lives to their cause "cowards." It's more cowardly to push a button in the safety of a room.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

First of all, he was completely right.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:38 AM

Rachel, I think 9-11 has been the backdrop to my coming-of-age. From a sheltered, naive goody-2-shoes to a liberal, mouthy, trust-no-one activist. It's too fishy.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:38 AM

Jordan, he WAS completely right.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:38 AM

Second of all, I remember Ari Fleiss, Bush's press secretary, saying about it, "People need to watch what they say."

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Mano Dogs

“However that was one of the times I noticed just how involved the major news outlets were in manipulating us.”

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:39 AM

It set the tone for the next decade. It was a telling moment.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

Yes, it was a real eye-opener for many. Unfortunately, many more were so emotionally damaged that the witch hunt, let's kill 'em all mentality took over when people should have been reflecting.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Not to mention but the administration at the time wasn't very competent at doing anything, so there's no way they could've pulled off something of this magnitude”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Kaufman

“Also, I'm a Jewish Freemason, and I wasn't advised of anything at the meetings...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:40 AM

@David - I forgot to tell you about the meeting. Sorry.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rachel McDonnell

“@Jordan.. I can't say I believe a 100% but I can't say I don't believe that 100% and that is the world we live in now you don't really know 100% if many people and officials are telling you the truth”

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

So how are you going to explain 9/11 o your son?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:41 AM

and what age is the right one?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

That's a big question.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

I haven't even decided how to explain God and religion.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

I told you I was going to prep a little....

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:42 AM

Honestly, i hope we forget.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:42 AM

Actually, maybe all the subjects go together...

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

No more of this "Remember 9-11" bullshit.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

It's tired.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

It's manipulative.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

And it serves no one.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:43 AM

I don't mean "forget" like fail to acknowlege that it happened,

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:43 AM

Well, I think the only reason it's tired is because of the hypocrisy.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:44 AM

but rather in the sense that we need to forget the fear and the posturing and the divisiveness of it.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

Lauding the first responders while depriving them health benefits.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:44 AM

No matter WHAT happened, the way forward is not in continuing to use it as an excuse for war.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:44 AM

what could be more distasteful than that?

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:44 AM

That's effing inexcusable.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:45 AM

But, it's because their health problems didn't go along with the story, see.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:45 AM

I told you it was fishy.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

You're so right. Part of what didn't happen from 9/11 was our looking at ourselves in the mirror.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:45 AM

Exactly.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:45 AM

For example, this might be before you were born, but when I was very young, The Iran hostage crisis happened.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:46 AM

Gosh.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

And everyone (then and now) was so quick to brand Iran as a lunatic nation, totally in the wrong.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:46 AM

But the fact is - WE DISPOSED OF THEIR RULER AND INSTALLED OUR OWN PUPPET, THE SHAH!

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

not the first time in that century.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

Look, can I get really personal for a minute?

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:47 AM

yes

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:47 AM

We are being lied to and manipulated.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

I grew up like that. I grew up in a violent household that was dictatorial.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

My parents are malignant narcissists.

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

I have enough experience to know one when I see one.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:48 AM

That's terribly unfair and I empathize

Rebecca Westbrook Toker · 1:48 AM

And this government has those characteristics.

Jordan Birnbaum · 1:49 AM

do you think that when people ascend to these positions of power they are self-selected sociopaths, or does the institution corupt them?