Jordan Birnbaum

Host

WHEN ATTORNEYS ATTACK!!!

Nov 14, 2013·85 visitors

Liphan Lee

Cohost

Stage· 463 messages

Nov 14, 2013

My friend makes his debut Tawk by entertaining us with stories of attorneys behaving badly enough to get disbarred. This Tawk might provide further justification for the old Shakespeare line about "the first thing we do..."

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

Mr. Lee, I presume?

Liphan Lee · 2:15 AM

Yes

Liphan Lee · 2:15 AM

I'm must give a notice:

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

all right! welcome to your debut Tawk. that countdown is pretty intense, right?

Liphan Lee · 2:15 AM

Absolutely

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:15 AM

I promise it's all gravy from here

Liphan Lee · 2:16 AM

none of these statements shall be construed as legal advice

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

welcome to the forum, and for first-time visitors, don't be shy! speak up!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“So? Are you Tawking, Liphan?”

Liphan Lee · 2:16 AM

all situations are fictional unless otherwise stated

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

he certainly is, Anthony.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:16 AM

it is quite lawyerly of you to provide a disclaimer right upfront.

Liphan Lee · 2:17 AM

no attorney client relationship is formed by any events that happen in this TAWK

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

lol

Liphan Lee · 2:17 AM

if you disagree...please leave

Liphan Lee · 2:17 AM

lol

Liphan Lee · 2:17 AM

to agree continue......

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:17 AM

do you think maybe you should read the warning labels from bottles of booze or cigarettes?

Liphan Lee · 2:17 AM

Jordan!!

Liphan Lee · 2:17 AM

we're good

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

OK - cool. So we're here tonight primarily to discuss some very bad behavior.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

but we're going to build up to it.

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:18 AM

we're going to start out with a game called "systemic or human?"

Liphan Lee · 2:18 AM

human

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

we're all going to list the problems with the legal system and decide if they are systemic or due to human corruption.

Liphan Lee · 2:19 AM

ok let's gooo

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

so audience pipe in with problems with legal system. I'll start us off. Why does it take a trial 10 to conclude?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:19 AM

10 years

Liphan Lee · 2:19 AM

nice

Liphan Lee · 2:19 AM

usually

Liphan Lee · 2:20 AM

the time frame is 2 years

Liphan Lee · 2:20 AM

recently...there has been a lot of budget cuts

Liphan Lee · 2:20 AM

so now you're looking at 3+

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

doesn't that strike you as quite a lot?

Liphan Lee · 2:20 AM

zimmerman didn't take 10 years right?

Liphan Lee · 2:20 AM

yes

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:20 AM

A trial should take, like a month. three tops.

Liphan Lee · 2:20 AM

by the time you've had your day in court

Liphan Lee · 2:21 AM

hopefully...you're over it

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

unless it's criminal

Liphan Lee · 2:21 AM

trials usually last around a week

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

then hopefully you're not

Liphan Lee · 2:21 AM

the hold up it's due to gamesmanship and chicanery

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:21 AM

yes, but I mean the entire process

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:22 AM

so if people were genuinely interested in the system working as well as it could, they would behave much differently?

Liphan Lee · 2:22 AM

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chicanery

Liphan Lee · 2:22 AM

absolutely

Liphan Lee · 2:22 AM

one huge issue is budget

Liphan Lee · 2:22 AM

less court rooms to handle cases

Liphan Lee · 2:22 AM

less resources to handle them properly

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:22 AM

what is this another lovely impact ohe sequester?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

of the sequester?

Liphan Lee · 2:23 AM

well

Liphan Lee · 2:23 AM

trials are actually less than 5%

Liphan Lee · 2:23 AM

of the actual cases out there

Liphan Lee · 2:23 AM

there is a huge push toward settlement

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:23 AM

though I guess this has been a problem for long before the sequester….

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

but the budget cuts are exasperating the problem

Liphan Lee · 2:24 AM

yes..example

Liphan Lee · 2:24 AM

court filing systems

Liphan Lee · 2:24 AM

pretend google decided

Liphan Lee · 2:24 AM

to handle it

Liphan Lee · 2:24 AM

so legit

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:24 AM

that sounds like a great idea, actually!

Liphan Lee · 2:24 AM

but there's no money for infrasturcture

Liphan Lee · 2:24 AM

infrastructure

Liphan Lee · 2:25 AM

well you can pitch it lol

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:25 AM

although, I'm usually anti-privatization, so that might be hypocritical of me…

Liphan Lee · 2:25 AM

well google is essentially a public entity

Liphan Lee · 2:25 AM

so....

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:26 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I think the first thing foreigners wonder when they come here is why is it so easy to sue, and in turn, why are there so many lawsuits in America?”

Liphan Lee · 2:26 AM

but we digress

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:26 AM

so Liph - how come it's so easy to sue in America?

Liphan Lee · 2:26 AM

hmmmm

Liphan Lee · 2:26 AM

good question Seth

Liphan Lee · 2:26 AM

America is the free-est nation in the world

Liphan Lee · 2:26 AM

accordingly, anyone is free to sue anyone

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:26 AM

(definition of "free" still under debate)

Liphan Lee · 2:27 AM

i said "free-est"

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

as opposed to free-ish

Liphan Lee · 2:27 AM

freesome

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“Seth, easy to sue cuz if you have money for fees, 100 attorneys will line up.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:27 AM

well, there sure are a lot of them…

Liphan Lee · 2:27 AM

200k plus in CA alone

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

what is that? the number of attorneys or hourly fees?

Liphan Lee · 2:28 AM

haa

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“If u don't have money, if your case looks at all plausible, they'll take it on contingency.”

Liphan Lee · 2:28 AM

number of attorneys in ca

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

perfect - next problem - MONEY

Liphan Lee · 2:28 AM

money is not the problem

Liphan Lee · 2:28 AM

GREED for money

Liphan Lee · 2:28 AM

that's the problem

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:28 AM

how come the court system is so tilted in the favor of those who can pay?

Liphan Lee · 2:28 AM

everything is

Liphan Lee · 2:29 AM

not just the court system

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

yeah, but we're not talking capitalism here.

Liphan Lee · 2:29 AM

you're entitled to representation......

Liphan Lee · 2:29 AM

no one said it was going to be good

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:29 AM

the court system SHOULD have a higher standard.

Liphan Lee · 2:29 AM

let's pretend for a second that $$$ wasn't a factor

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:30 AM

I think the system should predict greed and create structures and procedures to stop to from impacting the pursuit of justice.

Liphan Lee · 2:30 AM

then MAYBE the court system would run more efficiently

Liphan Lee · 2:30 AM

i agree

Liphan Lee · 2:30 AM

if there was money to be made doing that.....

Liphan Lee · 2:30 AM

i guaranty it would've been done

Liphan Lee · 2:30 AM

yesterday

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:31 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Good point...how is it justice if there is no pretense of a level playing field?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:31 AM

right?! I mean, shouldn't we AT LEAST pretend?

Liphan Lee · 2:31 AM

i've learned that justice is not free

Liphan Lee · 2:31 AM

you need to be able to afford justice

Liphan Lee · 2:31 AM

we are pretending

Liphan Lee · 2:32 AM

but that's all we're doing

Liphan Lee · 2:32 AM

the public pretenders

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:32 AM

OK - how about validity. How often do the courts "get it right?"

Liphan Lee · 2:32 AM

actually...they "get it right" most of the time

Liphan Lee · 2:32 AM

more than 50%

Liphan Lee · 2:32 AM

more like 70%

Liphan Lee · 2:32 AM

to what degree?

Liphan Lee · 2:33 AM

hard to say

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:33 AM

(just noticed that "public pretenders" rhymes with "public defenders." Good one, Liph!)

Liphan Lee · 2:33 AM

there is a lot of corruption in the system

Liphan Lee · 2:33 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“The subject of money is summed in the saying, "There's justice in America for those who can afford it." So we need to address the larger issue: compensation inequity.”

Liphan Lee · 2:33 AM

ya let's take the public pretender's office

Liphan Lee · 2:33 AM

as an example

Liphan Lee · 2:34 AM

each deputy has a case load of at least 30

Liphan Lee · 2:34 AM

that's one per day

Liphan Lee · 2:34 AM

compare that to a private attorney who has 30 case for the year

Liphan Lee · 2:34 AM

who's going to be more prepared?

Liphan Lee · 2:35 AM

don't even get me started with the racism that permeates the system!!!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

Right - so if you can afford an attorney right off the bat you're getting 1200% bump in attention

Liphan Lee · 2:35 AM

absolutely

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

(that 1200% figure is based on no calculations whatsoever)

Liphan Lee · 2:35 AM

lol

Liphan Lee · 2:35 AM

close enough

Liphan Lee · 2:35 AM

trust me....i'm chinese

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“Yes, caseload for public pretenders. Comes back to Lipan's comment that system needs more money.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:35 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“The Big money is in criminal defense and as soon as the public prosecutor learns the craft, they usually jump ship and open their own office as a criminal defense attorney”

Liphan Lee · 2:36 AM

well that's the entire government system TONY

Liphan Lee · 2:36 AM

Seth that is true...but it's actually better to work for the DA then go private defense

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:36 AM

It feels to me like the legal system is too intertwined with capitalism

Liphan Lee · 2:36 AM

the pretenders office is terribly out matched

Liphan Lee · 2:36 AM

in america

Liphan Lee · 2:36 AM

yes

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

it's like the news -there shouldn't be any profit in it

Liphan Lee · 2:37 AM

profit or not....bribes???

Liphan Lee · 2:37 AM

just got that jordan!!!

Liphan Lee · 2:37 AM

an homage to mr. murdock

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:37 AM

You know, I think humanity is always going to cheat. What matters is that you account for it, guard against it, and create consequences when you catch it.

Liphan Lee · 2:38 AM

yes...

Liphan Lee · 2:38 AM

here, it's called THE BAR

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:38 AM

how do you mean?

Liphan Lee · 2:38 AM

each state has a bar

Liphan Lee · 2:38 AM

the bar regulates it's members

Liphan Lee · 2:38 AM

a bar card is a license to practice law

Liphan Lee · 2:38 AM

it's regulated by the BAR

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:39 AM

and is the idea that by passing it one has evolved beyond the capacity for corruption?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:39 AM

sometimes you hold up the bar, sometimes the bar holds you up

Liphan Lee · 2:39 AM

NOT AT ALL

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:39 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“Yikes! "Should be no profit." Bribes. You're going to get the NSA on all of us.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:39 AM

sorry about that, Anthony

Liphan Lee · 2:39 AM

by passing the bar you've proven that you can type really fast

Liphan Lee · 2:39 AM

haha

Liphan Lee · 2:39 AM

and your IQ is at least around 100

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

so passing the bar is basically the same thing as hosting a Tawk?

Liphan Lee · 2:40 AM

pretty much

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I also wonder why attorneys fees are so high. It's nearly impossible to find an attorney who works for less than $250/hr. Is there some sort of minimum set by the bar, if not why are there no attorneys that will work for less”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

yeah what about this?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

is there some sort of secret agreement you all have?

Liphan Lee · 2:40 AM

do you WANT an attorney that charges $20/hour?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:40 AM

touche

Liphan Lee · 2:40 AM

cuz i dont

Liphan Lee · 2:41 AM

average in LA is 300

Liphan Lee · 2:41 AM

/hour

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

yeah man that's high.

Liphan Lee · 2:41 AM

well.....

Liphan Lee · 2:41 AM

thanks?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:41 AM

and how many hours usually go into a case. 100?

Liphan Lee · 2:41 AM

really depends on the case

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

there's so many different kinds

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

as tony mentioned

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

contingency

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

so in that case...you want to maximize your return

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

more money...least hours

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

flat fee

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

same thing

Liphan Lee · 2:42 AM

when you get to hourly.......

Liphan Lee · 2:43 AM

that's an entirely different can of worms

Liphan Lee · 2:43 AM

cartoon I read while I was lost in the corridors of college law school "law was started by lawyers" wasn't taking a class, was just lost

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:43 AM

so basically, even if you're innocent, if you get sued for anything it's going to cost you $25,000 minimum, fair to say?

Liphan Lee · 2:43 AM

Liphan Lee · 2:44 AM

generally

Liphan Lee · 2:44 AM

you don't want an attorney who charges tooooo little

Liphan Lee · 2:44 AM

you want your case done right

Liphan Lee · 2:44 AM

do you want the cheapest dentist around?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:44 AM

how much would you charge to get a misdemeanor dismissed and expunged from a record?

Liphan Lee · 2:44 AM

misdemeanor

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:44 AM

I assume you're asking for a friend, Rick?

Liphan Lee · 2:44 AM

personally.....

Liphan Lee · 2:45 AM

i'd do it pro bono

Liphan Lee · 2:45 AM

for the right person

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

not for a stranger

Liphan Lee · 2:45 AM

you don't want to pay less that 1500 otherwise

Liphan Lee · 2:45 AM

also it depends on the level of customer service you want

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:45 AM

OK - so it's fairly obvious that the system itself rewards bad behavior.

Liphan Lee · 2:45 AM

yes

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:46 AM

the supposed goals of the justice system aren't the actual goals of the justice system. Fair to say?

Liphan Lee · 2:46 AM

the attorneys make money

Liphan Lee · 2:46 AM

it's a business

Liphan Lee · 2:47 AM

justice is a by product now adays

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:47 AM

so what kind of long-term impact on the psyche of attorneys does this type of environment have?

Liphan Lee · 2:47 AM

regarding the system itself

Liphan Lee · 2:47 AM

imagine this........

Liphan Lee · 2:47 AM

your job is to argue with people all day

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:48 AM

not that hard to imagine yet

Liphan Lee · 2:48 AM

it's the type of argument that someone is willing to pay you $$300/hour to deal with

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:48 AM

less appealling

Liphan Lee · 2:48 AM

we're not talking about calling your credit card or the phone company

Liphan Lee · 2:48 AM

there's another asshole on the end of the phone

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:48 AM

how big an asshole?

Liphan Lee · 2:49 AM

and i mean that androgynously

Liphan Lee · 2:49 AM

depends

Liphan Lee · 2:49 AM

sometimes that asshole is HUGE

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:49 AM

OK - so what attracts people to become attorneys. Do they like to argue? Are they disagreeable people in the first place?

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:50 AM

or does the system do it to them?

Liphan Lee · 2:50 AM

they like to argue

Liphan Lee · 2:50 AM

but mostly

Liphan Lee · 2:50 AM

i would say either

Liphan Lee · 2:50 AM

money

Liphan Lee · 2:50 AM

or an actual belief that they could use their powers to help people

Liphan Lee · 2:50 AM

to change things

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:51 AM

so if someone is becoming an attorney for the money, they are going to be a problem (in the broadest sense)

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

truth.....

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

justice.....

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

and the AMERICAN way.....

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

for sure

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:51 AM

What are you watching Superfriends?

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

that's a clear sign that they are an asshole

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

well sometimes i pretend i'm harvey birdman

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

LOL

Liphan Lee · 2:51 AM

j/k that's never happened until now

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Chen

“And it's extremely profitable for many to be litigious”

Liphan Lee · 2:52 AM

David Chen

Liphan Lee · 2:52 AM

as usual...you are correct

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

yeah, David. and if you say that again I'm gonna sue you!

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“Yes, Liphan. "To change things." Can attorneys of 'merica get fired up enough to really do something to change things?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

great question anthony!

Liphan Lee · 2:52 AM

lol...i'll take it on contigency jordy

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:52 AM

where are the hero attorneys, man?

Liphan Lee · 2:53 AM

i haven't seen too many

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:53 AM

the Ralph Naders?

Liphan Lee · 2:53 AM

there are some out there tho

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:53 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Chen

“How high on the asshole index does being a lawyer score?”

Liphan Lee · 2:53 AM

TONY

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:53 AM

I mean,. we're at the top, right?

Liphan Lee · 2:53 AM

if it were more profitable

Liphan Lee · 2:53 AM

to act right

Liphan Lee · 2:53 AM

attorneys would act right

Liphan Lee · 2:54 AM

David

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:54 AM

could we make it more profitable to act right?

Liphan Lee · 2:54 AM

on a scale of 1 to 10

Liphan Lee · 2:54 AM

the average lawyer doing his job is an 8

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:54 AM

can we make it profitable to act well?

Liphan Lee · 2:54 AM

there are many 12s and there are many 10000000000000

Liphan Lee · 2:54 AM

yes and no

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

probably yes..probably no

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:55 AM

to behave in a way designed to save people money and achieve justice?

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

it's one of my favorite ansers

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

if you go into private practice

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

then yes

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

if the government is willing to fund it.....

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

through higher taxes

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

then yes

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

otherwise...no

Liphan Lee · 2:55 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“I nominate Liphan to find the hero attorneys and light a fire.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:56 AM

well, I do kind of like the idea of a universal pool of public defenders and random assignments…civil cases too.

Liphan Lee · 2:56 AM

thanks tony

Liphan Lee · 2:56 AM

you cant' have randomly assigned attorneys

Liphan Lee · 2:56 AM

unless its government

Liphan Lee · 2:56 AM

in private....i want to pay for my own attorney

Liphan Lee · 2:56 AM

i want to choose

Liphan Lee · 2:56 AM

cuz i'm american

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

that's what I mean - single-payer law

Liphan Lee · 2:57 AM

some lawsuits are VERY personal

Liphan Lee · 2:57 AM

think probate

Liphan Lee · 2:57 AM

think divorce

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

well, then don't go to court

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:57 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rich Hagberg

“Liphan, if you were correct things in the legal system, where would you start?”

Liphan Lee · 2:57 AM

there is a good group called JAMS

Liphan Lee · 2:57 AM

they do a lot of private mediation

Liphan Lee · 2:57 AM

it's a lot of retired judges, etc

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:58 AM

answer rich's question

Liphan Lee · 2:58 AM

first.....

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:58 AM

where would you star6t with fixing things

Liphan Lee · 2:58 AM

i would make the bar a little harder

Liphan Lee · 2:59 AM

i would give more power to the state bar and give them more funds

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

you mean you'd set the bar higher?

Liphan Lee · 2:59 AM

yes...by making it HARDER to become an attorney

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

OK - let's tawk turkey -give us some stories

Liphan Lee · 2:59 AM

hypothetically

Jordan Birnbaum · 2:59 AM

we want to hear about VERY BAD lawyer b ehavior

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

well lets start with this

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

and collectively decide if you have the basis for a TV show

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

a normal transaction gone sideways

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

lol ok

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

pressures on

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

hypothitcally

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

hypothetically

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

lets assume that a case has been assigned randomly to a specific judge

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:00 AM

Liphan Lee · 3:00 AM

now let's say i know the judge

Liphan Lee · 3:01 AM

or i know something about the judge

Liphan Lee · 3:01 AM

where is the line

Liphan Lee · 3:01 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

don't like where this is going

Liphan Lee · 3:01 AM

what is ethical and what isn't?

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:01 AM

doesn't the judge throw down the hammer on ethics?

Liphan Lee · 3:01 AM

if in know the judge is racist against

Liphan Lee · 3:01 AM

let's just say white people

Liphan Lee · 3:02 AM

can i use that to my advantage if i know opposing counsel is white?

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:02 AM

this really is a fairy tale

Liphan Lee · 3:02 AM

lol

Liphan Lee · 3:02 AM

yes...its a hypo

Liphan Lee · 3:02 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Are you familiar with other countries' legal systems, if so, how would you say they stack-up against ours”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:02 AM

OK - so do you know of people blackmailing or bribing judges?

Liphan Lee · 3:03 AM

rumor has it

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

don't name them

Liphan Lee · 3:03 AM

i MUSt leave it at that

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

I don

Liphan Lee · 3:03 AM

but there are judges who are know to

Liphan Lee · 3:03 AM

for example.....take their clerks out drinking

Liphan Lee · 3:03 AM

stuff like that

Liphan Lee · 3:03 AM

is THAT wrong?

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:03 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“Rich asks a question. Jordam wants an answer to it. Liphan starts to answer and what follows is a lot of monkey spanking. Get it you two: WHAT CAN BE DONE?”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

first of all, what do you have against monkey spanking?

Liphan Lee · 3:04 AM

first you get the money

Liphan Lee · 3:04 AM

then you get the power

Liphan Lee · 3:04 AM

it's on an individual basis

Liphan Lee · 3:04 AM

you can afford justice TONY

Liphan Lee · 3:04 AM

but that bum who asked you for $ cannot

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:04 AM

In fairness, Anthony, he did say that we should make the bar exam more difficult and filter out poorer attorneys…

Liphan Lee · 3:04 AM

yes that is for sure

Liphan Lee · 3:05 AM

so...we were going to go into some stories

Liphan Lee · 3:05 AM

let's call them bedtime stories

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:05 AM

yeah man -give us some juice!

Liphan Lee · 3:05 AM

about WHEN LAWYERS ATTACK!!!

Liphan Lee · 3:05 AM

legend has it.....

Liphan Lee · 3:06 AM

there once was an attorey

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

from Nantucket?

Liphan Lee · 3:06 AM

who took a bribe from OPPOSING COUNSEL

Liphan Lee · 3:06 AM

to fubar his own client's case

Liphan Lee · 3:06 AM

state bar doesn't even know

Liphan Lee · 3:06 AM

state bar doesn't even care

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:06 AM

did the client ever find out?

Liphan Lee · 3:07 AM

of course

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

what did he or she do?

Liphan Lee · 3:07 AM

but who's gonna believe that?

Liphan Lee · 3:07 AM

bar doesn't care

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

no one believed it?

Liphan Lee · 3:07 AM

prove it

Liphan Lee · 3:07 AM

PROVE IT

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

★ Spotlighted from Anthony Milch

“Liphan, you a better dialogue partner. I'm out.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:07 AM

I think he thinks you need a better dialogue partner

Liphan Lee · 3:07 AM

thanks TONY!

Liphan Lee · 3:07 AM

lol

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“That's like saying that teaching exams should be harder and filter out poorer teachers...it doesn't go that far in correcting the problems with the system.”

Liphan Lee · 3:08 AM

stick around tony

Liphan Lee · 3:08 AM

you're right rebecca

Liphan Lee · 3:08 AM

but it's a start

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:08 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Harder bar exams would just mean getting people who are better at studying legal materials...it wouldn't mean they're one-bit more ethical”

Liphan Lee · 3:08 AM

they do still have mentorship programs

Liphan Lee · 3:08 AM

correct seth

Liphan Lee · 3:09 AM

ethics is a different can of worms

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rich Hagberg

“so giving the bar more funding isn't necessarily a good start to fixing the legal system if they do not care about the dirty pool going on....”

Liphan Lee · 3:09 AM

but then there'd be smarter people on the other side who could deal with it

Liphan Lee · 3:09 AM

they don't care because they don't have the money to care

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:09 AM

so Liphan, I think we're all agreeing that your idea about "raising the bar" is not gonna cut it!

Liphan Lee · 3:10 AM

they're more interested in making sure people aren't directly stealing from the client trust account

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:10 AM

Yeah, so I go back to policy and structural solutions

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:10 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“It seems to me that maybe you can't clean up the legal system without first cleaning up...legislation. And legislators.”

Liphan Lee · 3:10 AM

now we're back to systemic v. hunam

Liphan Lee · 3:11 AM

human

Liphan Lee · 3:11 AM

and we're talking about a human issue

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

right, we can't do a thing until that happens

Liphan Lee · 3:11 AM

because we're all fallible

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rich Hagberg

“I think like many subjects we discuss here, it seems to boil down to moral, ethical behavior, and the lack thereof.”

Liphan Lee · 3:11 AM

exactly right rich

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:11 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“I think if there was more laws about attorney conduct, rather than this self-regulation nonsense of the state bar, made up of fellow attorneys, attorneys would think twice before going to the darkside”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

I'm with you, Seth

Liphan Lee · 3:12 AM

seith...anyone can always sue their attorney for malpractice

Liphan Lee · 3:12 AM

i actually believe that malpractice practice will rise enormously in the next decade

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

In the early 90's I worked at an investment bank with a very strong and strict compliance officer. And guess what? Nobody did anything wrong!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:12 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“It seems to be pretty hard to get disbarred...you really have to earn that sh*t”

Liphan Lee · 3:12 AM

yes and no

Liphan Lee · 3:13 AM

for me

Liphan Lee · 3:13 AM

some of the best advice i give to clients is.....

Liphan Lee · 3:13 AM

can you walk away? can you live with yourself if you just move on?

Liphan Lee · 3:13 AM

and if the answer is yes....

Liphan Lee · 3:13 AM

then i counsel them to use the time, energy and money to move on

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“If it is a moral/ethical issue, it requires paradigm shift, not more laws. It requires more of a "We don't do that here" kind of public shift.”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:14 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“But how the fuck do you DO that???”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:14 AM

Exactly. I think you have to start with the law. Like slavery.

Liphan Lee · 3:14 AM

well 12/21/12 was supposed to signify a paradigm shift

Liphan Lee · 3:14 AM

and actually i AM seeing "green shoots"

Liphan Lee · 3:14 AM

i mean.....some created TAWKERS

Liphan Lee · 3:14 AM

someone

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:15 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Public outrage is not going to stop any attorneys”

Liphan Lee · 3:15 AM

no...it's like any other crime

Liphan Lee · 3:15 AM

public outrage at murder does not stop murder

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:15 AM

So we need an Abraham Lincoln?

Liphan Lee · 3:15 AM

uhhhhh

Liphan Lee · 3:15 AM

let's seee

Liphan Lee · 3:15 AM

more like a JFK

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:15 AM

to overhaul everything?

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:16 AM

well, look at what happened to both of them

Liphan Lee · 3:16 AM

yep

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:16 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“No, not necessarily public outrage, but shaming. Like the "Keep America Beautiful" campaign. You're a dick if you throw your Coke can on the ground now.”

Liphan Lee · 3:16 AM

you're a dick if you rip off your client

Liphan Lee · 3:16 AM

lol

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:16 AM

TOTAL dick, you littering bastard!

Liphan Lee · 3:16 AM

it's basically standard

Liphan Lee · 3:16 AM

the standard is....i'm gonna rip you off

Liphan Lee · 3:17 AM

that's the human EGO tawking

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:17 AM

we need better standards

Liphan Lee · 3:17 AM

jordan for mayro

Liphan Lee · 3:17 AM

mayor

Liphan Lee · 3:17 AM

"we need better standards"

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:17 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rich Hagberg

“Yes Jordan, we do...”

Liphan Lee · 3:18 AM

surround yourself with good people

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:18 AM

wow everyone likes that line

Liphan Lee · 3:18 AM

don't hate

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:18 AM

Yeah -what he said

Liphan Lee · 3:18 AM

plur

Liphan Lee · 3:18 AM

j/k

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:19 AM

All right amigos - despite Tony's evaluation, I thought this was quite fun!

Liphan Lee · 3:19 AM

agreed

Liphan Lee · 3:19 AM

i could TAWK for hours

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“A code of conduct that says if you do x,y, or z you with clearly distinguished fines, jail time, and taking away the right to be an attorney will make the bad apples think twice”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:19 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“I agree with you in principal, Seth. I just don't think it will work.”

Liphan Lee · 3:19 AM

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:19 AM

see I'm still in this camp as well

Liphan Lee · 3:19 AM

everyone has a right to representation

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:20 AM

no he means consequences for attorneys behaving badly

Liphan Lee · 3:20 AM

"we never said GOOD representation"

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:20 AM

just like we need consequences for ALL corporate crime

Liphan Lee · 3:20 AM

there are

Liphan Lee · 3:20 AM

attorney's get disbarred all the time

Liphan Lee · 3:20 AM

request leave for 10 minutes

Liphan Lee · 3:21 AM

to go over these disbarments

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:21 AM

All right I'm signing off for the night - but I can't wait to start hearing some of the better disbarrment stories in the future!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rich Hagberg

“Higher ethical and moral standards would help, a place where ego should not be...”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:22 AM

I'll drink to that!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:22 AM

Good night, all - thanks for joining us!

Liphan Lee · 3:22 AM

good night!!

Liphan Lee · 3:22 AM

thank you jordan!!

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:22 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rebecca Westbrook Toker

“Oh - I have a Tawk tomorrow night. Come play!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from David Chen

“Thanks Jordan and Liphan!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Rich Hagberg

“Nice Tawking again gang! I missed ya!”

Jordan Birnbaum · 3:23 AM

★ Spotlighted from Seth Hochman

“Prosecution rests”

Forum · 89

Forum· 89 comments

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Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:16 AM★ Spotlighted

So? Are you Tawking, Liphan?

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:18 AM

Tap, tap. This thing on?

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:23 AM★ Spotlighted

I think the first thing foreigners wonder when they come here is why is it so easy to sue, and in turn, why are there so many lawsuits in America?

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:25 AM

Anybody here?

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:27 AM★ Spotlighted

Seth, easy to sue cuz if you have money for fees, 100 attorneys will line up.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:27 AM

Not sure being able to sue anyone counts as freedom. If you're a business owner or have some wealth you wouldn't view that as freedom

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:28 AM★ Spotlighted

If u don't have money, if your case looks at all plausible, they'll take it on contingency.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:29 AM

I understand that..just not sure this is what the Founding Fathers envisoned--not too mention this costs ridiculous amounts of money to pay judges, baliffs, stenographers, etc. for all the suits

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:29 AM

Yes, everything is. But that doesn't answer his question.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:30 AM★ Spotlighted

Good point...how is it justice if there is no pretense of a level playing field?

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:32 AM★ Spotlighted

The subject of money is summed in the saying, "There's justice in America for those who can afford it." So we need to address the larger issue: compensation inequity.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:33 AM

How do we know?

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:34 AM

It's impossible to say how often they get the verdict right...in some cases, DNA or other evidence years later exonerates the defendant

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:34 AM

Public Pretender for OJ learned the system working for the guv. Then he gamed it in private practice.

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:35 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes, caseload for public pretenders. Comes back to Lipan's comment that system needs more money.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:35 AM★ Spotlighted

The Big money is in criminal defense and as soon as the public prosecutor learns the craft, they usually jump ship and open their own office as a criminal defense attorney

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:36 AM

Yes, Liphan - the entire guv. So what do we do?

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:37 AM

Not sure more money is the answer...it just seems to feed a system that is already completely out of control. How about making it harder to sue, and taking for-profit prisons out of the picture and then you'll see a lot less lawsuits and some saving

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:37 AM

savings to the taxpayer

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:38 AM★ Spotlighted

Yikes! "Should be no profit." Bribes. You're going to get the NSA on all of us.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:40 AM★ Spotlighted

I also wonder why attorneys fees are so high. It's nearly impossible to find an attorney who works for less than $250/hr. Is there some sort of minimum set by the bar, if not why are there no attorneys that will work for less

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:41 AM

Certainly there are a lot of attorneys that just graduated from school, with loads of debt, why aren't they working for less.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:41 AM

Why are there none charging $100 or $150 is that so little to make in an hour?

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:42 AM

So it appears we are all in agreement. This Rawk was billed as "When Attorneys Attack." Liphan, do u think attorneys across the usa will attack the corruption and tilted playing field in this country? Is there a way to get them fired up and ACT?

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:42 AM

Not too mention most attorneys want to be paid upfront with a retainer. I know of almost no other field where people get paid everything upfront with no guarantee of results

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:44 AM

Unless you're Casey Anthony or some other high-profile case where they can make money off of writing books or making movies

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:46 AM

Of course you don't want the cheapest attorney in town but why does it seem to be some kind of price fixing where no attorney will work for less than $250. With doctors, realtors, and nearly any other business there is a wide variety of what people

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:46 AM

charge

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:46 AM

So what's it going to take for attorneys with a conscience to join to attack the flaws in the system?

David ChenNov 14, 2013, 2:48 AM★ Spotlighted

And it's extremely profitable for many to be litigious

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:50 AM

Not sure the Founding Fathers would be proud of today's legal system

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:51 AM

sounds like a commercial Liphan

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:52 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes, Liphan. "To change things." Can attorneys of 'merica get fired up enough to really do something to change things?

David ChenNov 14, 2013, 2:53 AM★ Spotlighted

How high on the asshole index does being a lawyer score?

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 2:53 AM★ Spotlighted

I nominate Liphan to find the hero attorneys and light a fire.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:53 AM

Lol, David who would score higher on that index?

David ChenNov 14, 2013, 2:56 AM

Seth- Ya, hard to think of many jobs that are comprised with a higher density of assholes.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:57 AM

Politicians, although most of them were former attorneys

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:57 AM

It's one big circle David :)

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 2:57 AM★ Spotlighted

Liphan, if you were correct things in the legal system, where would you start?

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:58 AM★ Spotlighted

Are you familiar with other countries' legal systems, if so, how would you say they stack-up against ours

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 2:59 AM

Italy is a little crazy...although they supposedly found Amanda Knox's DNA on the knife

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 3:03 AM★ Spotlighted

Rich asks a question. Jordam wants an answer to it. Liphan starts to answer and what follows is a lot of monkey spanking. Get it you two: WHAT CAN BE DONE?

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:05 AM★ Spotlighted

That's like saying that teaching exams should be harder and filter out poorer teachers...it doesn't go that far in correcting the problems with the system.

Anthony MilchNov 14, 2013, 3:06 AM★ Spotlighted

Liphan, you a better dialogue partner. I'm out.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:06 AM★ Spotlighted

Harder bar exams would just mean getting people who are better at studying legal materials...it wouldn't mean they're one-bit more ethical

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:06 AM

Good point Rebecca!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:06 AM

Bur wouldn't that be a hit on his own record?

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:08 AM★ Spotlighted

so giving the bar more funding isn't necessarily a good start to fixing the legal system if they do not care about the dirty pool going on....

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:09 AM

So I don't understand how making the bar exam harder would help out at all

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:09 AM★ Spotlighted

It seems to me that maybe you can't clean up the legal system without first cleaning up...legislation. And legislators.

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:09 AM

Lawyers are far down the food chain.

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:11 AM★ Spotlighted

I think like many subjects we discuss here, it seems to boil down to moral, ethical behavior, and the lack thereof.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:11 AM★ Spotlighted

I think if there was more laws about attorney conduct, rather than this self-regulation nonsense of the state bar, made up of fellow attorneys, attorneys would think twice before going to the darkside

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:12 AM

But the dark side has cookies Seth....

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:12 AM★ Spotlighted

It seems to be pretty hard to get disbarred...you really have to earn that sh*t

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:12 AM

ask Darth Maul...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:12 AM

I want to agree with you, Seth, but it seems that the trend toward more regulation doesn't work any better than self-regulation.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:13 AM

Sure if money is no object and you don't think the new attorney will screw you as well

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:13 AM

Right now there are almost no rules on what an attorney can't do other than what is imposed by the Bar

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:13 AM★ Spotlighted

If it is a moral/ethical issue, it requires paradigm shift, not more laws. It requires more of a "We don't do that here" kind of public shift.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:13 AM

So something is better than nothing

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:13 AM★ Spotlighted

But how the fuck do you DO that???

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:13 AM

That's a good question Liphan, depending on the circumstances

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:14 AM★ Spotlighted

Public outrage is not going to stop any attorneys

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:15 AM

Let's remember a lot of these people work for the worst criminals out there and cheerfully take their money despite the heinous crimes commited

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:16 AM★ Spotlighted

No, not necessarily public outrage, but shaming. Like the "Keep America Beautiful" campaign. You're a dick if you throw your Coke can on the ground now.

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:17 AM

true - just like taking a gun away doesn't stop murders.... if some is committed, they'll find another to commit it...

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:17 AM★ Spotlighted

A code of conduct that says if you do x,y, or z you with clearly distinguished fines, jail time, and taking away the right to be an attorney will make the bad apples think twice

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:17 AM★ Spotlighted

Yes Jordan, we do...

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:19 AM★ Spotlighted

I agree with you in principal, Seth. I just don't think it will work.

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:19 AM

For example, in Florida a lot of criminals were getting into setting up pain clinics, which were basically prescription pill factories for the right price...the state stepped in and arrested over 100 operators

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:19 AM

Loved it, but... playing catch up sucks when you get here late.....

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:19 AM

Now you hardly see them popping up anymore

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:19 AM

Thanks, Guys!

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:20 AM

What kind of law are you in Liphan?

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:20 AM

like medical practice is just that... practice...

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:20 AM

Buyer Beware certainly applies to the hiring of an attorney

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:21 AM

Hopefully not Rich :)

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:21 AM★ Spotlighted

Higher ethical and moral standards would help, a place where ego should not be...

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:22 AM

Good night!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:22 AM

Good night, everyone!

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:22 AM

Cheers Jordan! Thanks Liphan!

David ChenNov 14, 2013, 3:22 AM★ Spotlighted

Thanks Jordan and Liphan!

Rebecca Westbrook TokerNov 14, 2013, 3:22 AM★ Spotlighted

Oh - I have a Tawk tomorrow night. Come play!

Rich HagbergNov 14, 2013, 3:22 AM★ Spotlighted

Nice Tawking again gang! I missed ya!

Seth HochmanNov 14, 2013, 3:23 AM★ Spotlighted

Prosecution rests