Katie Klabusich

Host

Why do we fall in love with leaders?

Feb 4, 2014·28 visitors

Michael Brooks

Cohost

Stage· 220 messages

Feb 4, 2014

Listening to a recent Intersection podcast of Michael's (Stream/download: http://ow.ly/t7H3C), I found myself agreeing w/him even more than usual. In the West, we definitely fall in love w/leaders, placing too much hope in one person to change things.n nWhat happened to our celebration of movements and grassroots organizing? Get more background at the FB event -- http://ow.ly/t7HY2 -- & join us as we discuss some theories!

Katie Klabusich · 10:57 PM

★ Spotlighted from Tawkers Admin

“Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!”

Katie Klabusich · 11:00 PM

Hi, everyone! Thanks for coming to "Why do we fall in love with leaders?" with the fantastic Michael Brooks!

Michael Brooks · 11:00 PM

Hi there!

Katie Klabusich · 11:00 PM

Real quick, if you’re new to Tawkers, Michael and I will be chatting on the left. And if you’re signed in (it only takes two minutes to set up a profile!), you can add comments/questions on the right. Those are only seen by people who are signed in.

Katie Klabusich · 11:00 PM

Michael and I can spotlight comments to toss them into our conversation for everyone to see, so be sure to “thumbs-up” anything you want us to respond to! (That also makes it easier for us to see them.)

Katie Klabusich · 11:00 PM

I got the idea for this chat while listening to Michael’s podcast for Aslan Media, Intersection (you can find it here: http://ow.ly/t7H3C). He described the way we “in the West keep falling for charismatic leaders” in the hopes that

Katie Klabusich · 11:01 PM

our single act of voting them into office or entrusting them with an area of civic life will solve society’s big problems when we should be “fundamentally empowering people and institution building."

Katie Klabusich · 11:01 PM

There’s a lot to unpack in that one thought and tonight Michael has graciously returned to donated an hour of his time so we can ruminate on this sort of esoteric, but important, idea. Thanks so much, Michael!

Michael Brooks · 11:01 PM

Thank you!

Michael Brooks · 11:01 PM

always great chatting with you Katie

Katie Klabusich · 11:01 PM

I pulled that spliced quote of yours from an episode where you discuss the assassination of Benezir Bhutto, Prime Minister of Pakistan.

Katie Klabusich · 11:02 PM

What about Bhutto’s political career had you thinking about the idea of western emphasis on the executive office and its “power” to affect change?

Michael Brooks · 11:03 PM

Well, Bhutto of course was of course killed several years ago when she was returning to Pakistan in an effort to reclaim power after several years of exile

Michael Brooks · 11:03 PM

She was this incredibly figure in many ways, polished, sophisticated and she had incredible physical courage

Michael Brooks · 11:03 PM

she also presided over incredible levels of corruption

Michael Brooks · 11:03 PM

when she was in office

Katie Klabusich · 11:03 PM

I think that's mostly all Americans know about her. She was in power, she was in exile, she was back in power, she was killed.

Michael Brooks · 11:04 PM

and lots of people seemed to place this very simplistic faith in her without a fuller understanding of Pakistan in this case and some of the broader realities

Katie Klabusich · 11:04 PM

Yeah, I remember sort of widespread cheering from the West that she had returned.

Michael Brooks · 11:06 PM

sure, and look it took a lot of guts for her to return but if we looked at the entirety of her record include support for the Taliban at different points, immense corruption under her leadership and even the manner in which she was returning we may

Michael Brooks · 11:06 PM

have been a bit more skeptical

Michael Brooks · 11:07 PM

but the point is not to trash Bhutto she was murdered and may have actually provided some positive energy had she returned to power

Michael Brooks · 11:07 PM

its just our singular focus on figures like her at the expense of context that is a problem

Katie Klabusich · 11:07 PM

Right. Absolutely. Do you think it's just a hunger for change and an optimism that makes people think one elected official can provide change when it's so desperately needed?

Katie Klabusich · 11:07 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“It had alot to do with her being a woman in a place where women are constantly oppressed”

Michael Brooks · 11:07 PM

I think leaders are more fun to talk about and fillter things through

Katie Klabusich · 11:08 PM

Agreed, Patrick. There's definitely an element of that to it. The extra hopefulness and optics that having a woman in power provide.

Michael Brooks · 11:08 PM

no question

Katie Klabusich · 11:08 PM

That's an interest point, Michael -- leaders give us a jumping off point to have the discussion about widespread change.

Michael Brooks · 11:09 PM

Patrick, that said she actually didn't reverse laws from the 1980s under Zia's rule that were very anti women

Michael Brooks · 11:09 PM

so again in policy these things were wanting

Katie Klabusich · 11:09 PM

There as a perception that she would, though.

Katie Klabusich · 11:09 PM

I think that's why I liked her as an example.

Katie Klabusich · 11:09 PM

Because we have a similar situation in the US right now.

Katie Klabusich · 11:10 PM

There was a thought that electing one person (reelecting in Pakistan's case) would bring about a massive societal shift.

Michael Brooks · 11:10 PM

well she was elected twice and didn't touch those laws-so staying on Pakistan it requires us to look at why she wouldn't as well as having a guess a more shrewd and fuller understanding of her

Michael Brooks · 11:11 PM

But, take another example in Iran

Michael Brooks · 11:11 PM

people thought the leaders of the Green Movement wanted Iran to have a radically different foreign policy

Michael Brooks · 11:12 PM

well not exactly, they actually shared some of the same views as the leadership and Rouhani is doing some amazing stuff on fp but Iran still has real human rights problems

Katie Klabusich · 11:12 PM

I'm interested in why that happens. What was it that made people think that the Green Movement was going to be fundamentally different and cause such a radical shift?

Michael Brooks · 11:12 PM

well I think one it is amazing and stunning to see something like the Green Movement

Michael Brooks · 11:13 PM

its inspiring anytime people do sometihng like that for human rights

Michael Brooks · 11:13 PM

but, we jump to that having a meaning that they share a complete worldview with us that they probably don't

Michael Brooks · 11:13 PM

look at it from an outside of America perspective

Michael Brooks · 11:14 PM

a lot of people thought outside of the US that Obama would have a radically different way of dealing with the world

Michael Brooks · 11:14 PM

but again not exactly

Michael Brooks · 11:14 PM

Katie Klabusich · 11:14 PM

Exactly. That's totallly the parallel I was going for in both cases.

Katie Klabusich · 11:15 PM

People thought that they showed up Nov of 2008, voted for one man and that sweeping change was sure to follow.

Katie Klabusich · 11:15 PM

My cynical side sees laziness. My optimistic side sees hopefulness in that act.

Katie Klabusich · 11:15 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“Boy were we wrong”

Katie Klabusich · 11:15 PM

I'd agree with Patrick; but even if I loved all of Obama's policies, in a Constitutional democracy, the POTUS is fundamentally limited in his ability to affect change.

Katie Klabusich · 11:16 PM

So Obama could have been *the* embodiment of progressivism. There still is only so much he can do from that office. What makes Americans -- or Iranians -- think that their executive office vote is SO IMPORTANT?

Michael Brooks · 11:18 PM

Well, I do think we also need to be real about what peoples policies are. Obama as an example is a centrist to in some ways center-right Democrat so its not like he is a hardcore progressive who is being blocked from doing radical change (although

Michael Brooks · 11:18 PM

he is blocked in his attempts at sensible reform)

Katie Klabusich · 11:18 PM

Agreed.

Michael Brooks · 11:18 PM

but, I agree that context really matters

Katie Klabusich · 11:18 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“Absolutely! There are always many powers in play”

Katie Klabusich · 11:19 PM

Policy aside, there was such a tangible feeling in the air that "This Is It" and "Change is happening." From one vote. For one person.

Michael Brooks · 11:19 PM

the executive of course is the number one spot, but there are other seats of power and even cultural dynamics at play

Michael Brooks · 11:19 PM

that really influence what is possible

Michael Brooks · 11:19 PM

Right

Michael Brooks · 11:19 PM

and I think that people are a lot more cynical

Michael Brooks · 11:20 PM

and that can go in either positive or negative directions, we can use that experience to drive ourselves to look at the bigger picture or we can just disengage

Michael Brooks · 11:20 PM

which would be a shame

Katie Klabusich · 11:21 PM

I feel like we as Americans disengage. We use the emphasis on the executive (by which I mean, president, governor, mayor) office to unplug anytime we aren't at the ballot checking a box for that candidate's office.

Katie Klabusich · 11:21 PM

I see Lucy in the chat -- is this the same in the UK?

Michael Brooks · 11:21 PM

I think that is true to a large extent. Presidential races are great spectacles

Michael Brooks · 11:22 PM

And to be honest for a long time and even now the Right has had their on the ball at a local level I think generally more than the left

Michael Brooks · 11:22 PM

and that also needs to shift

Katie Klabusich · 11:23 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“Great spectacles that are put on like a broadway show with some high paid person with a sociology degree deciding how they will present the show”

Katie Klabusich · 11:24 PM

True. The right also falls in line. There's less division by definition. Conservatives want to conserve the status quo, so there's less discussion about direction, purpose, policy, etc.

Katie Klabusich · 11:24 PM

I wonder if that plays into the emphasis on the executive. The right has an all-in hero worship (hello, Reagan!) and the left is divided on other offices when issues are closer to home and more localized.

Michael Brooks · 11:26 PM

I'm not sure all the reasons, I do think I do at times see some people in the Democratic Party that could use to be more critical of their parties leadership

Katie Klabusich · 11:26 PM

Agreed.

Michael Brooks · 11:26 PM

but, yes the right has both some incredibly intense grassroots fanatic types

Michael Brooks · 11:26 PM

and a lot of money to throw around to pervert local races

Katie Klabusich · 11:26 PM

Yeah. They stay dedicated.

Katie Klabusich · 11:26 PM

Truth. Let;s not forget about the part money plays.

Michael Brooks · 11:26 PM

money is huge

Katie Klabusich · 11:27 PM

We started by talking about perception. That perception can be played up or down or made to influence the way we see candidates.

Katie Klabusich · 11:27 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“The right scares the crap out of me for just that reason, Michael”

Katie Klabusich · 11:27 PM

It leads to a lot of dissatisfaction on the left and a lot of "Checking Out."

Michael Brooks · 11:28 PM

That is a great point

Michael Brooks · 11:28 PM

I remember in college studying the distinction between "crisis" and non-crisis driven messages

Michael Brooks · 11:29 PM

sometimes we can grab peoples attention with horrifying information but it can also lead them to check out because they feel powerfless

Katie Klabusich · 11:29 PM

Word.

Katie Klabusich · 11:29 PM

Simultaneously, event.

Katie Klabusich · 11:29 PM

*8even

Katie Klabusich · 11:29 PM

We see our executives "fail" and we throw our hands up, leaving "smaller" elections open for the right-wing to come in and snag more easily.

Michael Brooks · 11:29 PM

we need to somehow present the full picture but in such way as its frankly more interesting and empowering to actually understand how shit works

Michael Brooks · 11:30 PM

that's a lot of what I do on my podcast Intersection and as a contributor at the Majority Report

Michael Brooks · 11:30 PM

here is how this thing actually works

Michael Brooks · 11:30 PM

so you can have a better grip on it and from that place I think there is more room to move

Katie Klabusich · 11:30 PM

You just nailed another issue that feeds into this. (Everyone should be listening -- http://majority.fm ) We criticize our citizens for being prone to only hear sound bytes. But it's how we teach kids.

Katie Klabusich · 11:31 PM

Anyone actually take a balanced civics class in school? <crickets>

Katie Klabusich · 11:31 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“That's hard to do with all the dis-information out there”

Katie Klabusich · 11:31 PM

Not enough people know "how this thing actually works."

Michael Brooks · 11:31 PM

right

Michael Brooks · 11:31 PM

and that is a process

Katie Klabusich · 11:31 PM

I feel like every chat we have gets around to that.

Katie Klabusich · 11:31 PM

lol

Michael Brooks · 11:31 PM

lol

Michael Brooks · 11:31 PM

totally

Katie Klabusich · 11:32 PM

n your writing and commentary you are very social justice/institutional infrastructure driven.

Katie Klabusich · 11:32 PM

Is our executive branch/office focus one of the hurtles to getting the real work of helping actual human beings accomplished?

Katie Klabusich · 11:33 PM

We have the sound bytes + not knowing + POTUS focus. And we forget about all the things that actually make the country work. The social infrastructure.

Michael Brooks · 11:34 PM

I think all this stuff can be integrated, in the sense that the executive matters and there is nothing wrong with being interested or inspired by leaders

Michael Brooks · 11:34 PM

but as we keep saying this all exists in context

Katie Klabusich · 11:34 PM

Right. This is about balance.

Michael Brooks · 11:35 PM

and context allows for a broader understand of what confines leaders work in and give you a better sense of how you may might to participate or engage if you are moved to do so

Michael Brooks · 11:35 PM

so in FP its not simply finding a leader in Pakistan or Ukraine or anywhere else you like or don't like its about figuring out their institutions and their games

Michael Brooks · 11:36 PM

and domestically it is sort of doing the same thing

Katie Klabusich · 11:36 PM

That's an interesting parallel.

Katie Klabusich · 11:36 PM

Foreign policy isn't cut and dry. It's kind of weird that we expect domestic policy could be.

Michael Brooks · 11:37 PM

right

Katie Klabusich · 11:37 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“Is'nt hiding the game the whole "game"?”

Michael Brooks · 11:38 PM

and actually that's why its important I think also to get beyond a basic cynical view, its one thing to say "oh its all corrupt its all shit forget it"

Michael Brooks · 11:38 PM

That's actually a view that people who don't want change and progress are happy with

Katie Klabusich · 11:39 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“agreed”

Michael Brooks · 11:39 PM

instead go into it get your nails dirty and see how yes its profoundly dysfunctional and in many ways corrupt but there are openings, fluidity and pressure points that can possibly nudge things in a better direction

Katie Klabusich · 11:40 PM

Awesome. I just had a conversation with your sometimes collaborator Suchitra today that touched on that.

Michael Brooks · 11:40 PM

she is great

Katie Klabusich · 11:40 PM

The generation before ours protested the Vietnam War, got their hands dirty. Thought they were going to change the world.

Michael Brooks · 11:40 PM

glad you meant up

Katie Klabusich · 11:40 PM

And then for some reason, at some point, they just sort of exhaled their way out of that mindset.

Katie Klabusich · 11:40 PM

They hit a cynical, exhausted wall.

Katie Klabusich · 11:41 PM

It's fucking hard to keep your hands in the dirt.

Michael Brooks · 11:41 PM

Yes, although some of them kept going strong and others went off and became total assholes

Katie Klabusich · 11:41 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“there must be a burnout point for most activists”

Katie Klabusich · 11:41 PM

Truth.

Michael Brooks · 11:43 PM

I think like Patrick burnout is a factor. Going into activist culture-activists need to develop a better sense of self care and renewal both for themselves and for the appeal of social movements as a whole

Katie Klabusich · 11:43 PM

Self care is huge.

Katie Klabusich · 11:43 PM

It's something my activist friends and I talk about a lot.

Michael Brooks · 11:43 PM

but, I also think for us generationally we have been so put off by doing big things in a certain way that we actually need to get back some of that back from the 1960s

Michael Brooks · 11:43 PM

the sense of possiblity

Katie Klabusich · 11:43 PM

I think that's easier to achieve with the internet. You can see that someone else is picking up the baton while you take a breather.

Michael Brooks · 11:44 PM

obviously a totally different world with different demands but we need some of that

Katie Klabusich · 11:44 PM

Word. With you. The grand gestures we had to do before the internet were rallying cries and where relationships were formed.

Katie Klabusich · 11:44 PM

We have to make sure we're building relationships.

Katie Klabusich · 11:44 PM

Which ties back into putting all our hopes in one person.

Katie Klabusich · 11:45 PM

If your daily life and activism is tied to a network, you're less likely to see ALL THE CHANGE in one candidate/official/leader.

Michael Brooks · 11:45 PM

yes

Michael Brooks · 11:45 PM

and also i think its really important to engage with culture, economy, social networks but also local and physical ones

Katie Klabusich · 11:46 PM

Yeah. The more grounded you are, the more grounded you are.

Michael Brooks · 11:46 PM

so we aren't just watching this TV drama called politics we have a deep connection in our lives and its grounded

Michael Brooks · 11:46 PM

yes grounded

Katie Klabusich · 11:46 PM

Yeah, I can be a politics fan the way I'm a sports fan.

Katie Klabusich · 11:46 PM

But I do know the difference. I can appreciate the 10000 GOP primary debates as singular events.

Katie Klabusich · 11:47 PM

But after they're over, back to work. There are too many of us who think *that* staging is politics and civic life.

Michael Brooks · 11:47 PM

right

Michael Brooks · 11:48 PM

and one thing that clever people engaged with change and politics have always seen is when you connect politics with culture, community and other things that excited people you are on your way to being way more effective

Katie Klabusich · 11:48 PM

Truth. How do we do that?

Katie Klabusich · 11:48 PM

Solve all our problems for us, Michael.

Michael Brooks · 11:48 PM

Michael Brooks · 11:49 PM

i'm gonna have to set up a consulting shop soon

Katie Klabusich · 11:49 PM

Yes please! Do you need a social media director? ;)

Michael Brooks · 11:49 PM

ha! of course

Katie Klabusich · 11:49 PM

I do have a standard answer for people on that, though.

Michael Brooks · 11:49 PM

tell me

Katie Klabusich · 11:49 PM

It usually comes up with asking about my activism and how I 'found" an area, etc.

Katie Klabusich · 11:49 PM

I say I started going to things.

Katie Klabusich · 11:49 PM

Leave your house. Go to a thing.

Katie Klabusich · 11:49 PM

Then sign up to volunteer.

Katie Klabusich · 11:50 PM

For everything.

Katie Klabusich · 11:50 PM

Eventually, you find yourself gravitate to an activity, cause or the people in that cause/activity. And you get grounded in the real work of life and polticis.

Michael Brooks · 11:50 PM

perfect

Michael Brooks · 11:50 PM

I would also add and its funny because I make my living talking basically, but really listen to people

Katie Klabusich · 11:51 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“only 12 minutes till i can watch Bill Nye kick Ken Hamm around like a can”

Katie Klabusich · 11:51 PM

Patrick -- that's why we're earlier than normal. ;)

Michael Brooks · 11:51 PM

does not mean condoning or agreeing but people crave genuine human interaction

Katie Klabusich · 11:51 PM

Hahaha. Truth. Me as well. And I say the same thing.

Michael Brooks · 11:52 PM

There is this dude Fernando Flores a business consultant who talks about the next wave after social media is people really desiring sustainable human relationships and meaning beyond clicking

Michael Brooks · 11:52 PM

and in that space a lot is gonna happen

Katie Klabusich · 11:52 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“I figured as much!”

Michael Brooks · 11:52 PM

that is a big side effect of things like inequality

Katie Klabusich · 11:53 PM

The ability to connect beyond your immediate tribe to other people experiencing inequality is huge.

Michael Brooks · 11:53 PM

yes

Michael Brooks · 11:53 PM

and even within our tribes

Katie Klabusich · 11:53 PM

And doing that through social media can lead us to the other side where he's talking about.

Michael Brooks · 11:53 PM

for sure

Katie Klabusich · 11:54 PM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“Hey girl...HI!! I'm awake now....Carrie”

Michael Brooks · 11:54 PM

he is in no way anti social media but we are gonna have a whole new set of challenges and opportunities that come through it

Katie Klabusich · 11:54 PM

(Hahaha. Who's taking care of my niece if you're both listening to me talk on the other side of the country?)

Katie Klabusich · 11:54 PM

No, I totally get what he's saying.

Katie Klabusich · 11:54 PM

It should and can be a bridge to developing real work.

Katie Klabusich · 11:55 PM

Take you and me.

Katie Klabusich · 11:55 PM

That's why we know each other in the real world.

Michael Brooks · 11:55 PM

indeed

Katie Klabusich · 11:55 PM

So, after everyone watches Bill Nye destroy that creationist guy, they should find a way to plug into their communities.

Michael Brooks · 11:55 PM

i am so impressed that people can watch that

Katie Klabusich · 11:55 PM

And if you aren't sure what issues to be angry about, Michael will be on the air at noon EST on the Majority Report tomorrow to tell you. ;)

Michael Brooks · 11:56 PM

it would be to frustrating for me to watch

Katie Klabusich · 11:56 PM

Haha. I have a disconnected fascination.

Michael Brooks · 11:56 PM

and once a week take a deep dive into what's really go down in the Middle East and North Africa on my Podcast

Katie Klabusich · 11:56 PM

But I stand in front of women's clinics for four hours every saturday listening to extremists tell me I'm going to hell, so you could say I'm desensitized to the frustration. ;)

Michael Brooks · 11:56 PM

INTERSECTION

Michael Brooks · 11:56 PM

yes

Katie Klabusich · 11:56 PM

Yes! The link is back at the beginning of this chat.

Michael Brooks · 11:56 PM

that is also incredible work you do

Katie Klabusich · 11:57 PM

And here it is again: http://ow.ly/t7H3C

Katie Klabusich · 11:57 PM

And I write the activism segments for The Best of the Left Podcast, so in two minutes twice a week I tell you how to plug in.

Katie Klabusich · 11:57 PM

http://www.bestoftheleft.com

Katie Klabusich · 11:57 PM

I see all of ya'll readers out there. Now you have no excuse not to jump in.

Michael Brooks · 11:57 PM

which I seem to make a lot of appearances in so I totally trust Katie's taste :)

Katie Klabusich · 11:58 PM

Hahaha.

Katie Klabusich · 11:58 PM

Full circle, folks, full circle.

Michael Brooks · 11:58 PM

word

Katie Klabusich · 11:58 PM

Go follow Michael on twitter to keep up with all his stuff and follow me. We're both really responsive on social media.

Katie Klabusich · 11:58 PM

So if you have more ideas of how we get this generation's hands dirty, we want to hear them!

Michael Brooks · 11:59 PM

we really do!

Michael Brooks · 11:59 PM

This is me on twitter https://twitter.com/_michaelbrooks

Katie Klabusich · 11:59 PM

Michael, thanks so much for joining me again! I know not that many people jumped in (thanks, Patrick!), but it's an overwhelming subject.

Katie Klabusich · 11:59 PM

Hopefully we made it a little more accessible.

Michael Brooks · 11:59 PM

Thank you Katie

Michael Brooks · 11:59 PM

thanks everyone

Katie Klabusich · 11:59 PM

Have a good night, everybody!

Michael Brooks · 12:00 AM

Night!

Katie Klabusich · 12:04 AM

★ Spotlighted from Patrick Kelly

“Thanks to you both”

Forum · 17

Forum· 17 comments

28 visitors

Tawkers AdminJan 31, 2014, 3:15 PM★ Spotlighted

Welcome to the comment section of the Tawk, where audience members can share their thoughts about the main conversation happening on the left. Don't by shy! Entering questions and comments is the only way to get the attention of the two Hosts on stage!

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 10:55 PM

5 mins to go where is everyone?

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:07 PM★ Spotlighted

It had alot to do with her being a woman in a place where women are constantly oppressed

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:15 PM★ Spotlighted

Boy were we wrong

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:17 PM★ Spotlighted

Absolutely! There are always many powers in play

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:23 PM★ Spotlighted

Great spectacles that are put on like a broadway show with some high paid person with a sociology degree deciding how they will present the show

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:26 PM

We fall in love only with the leaders that align with us and the ones that we are "feed".

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:27 PM★ Spotlighted

The right scares the crap out of me for just that reason, Michael

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:31 PM★ Spotlighted

That's hard to do with all the dis-information out there

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:37 PM★ Spotlighted

Is'nt hiding the game the whole "game"?

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:38 PM★ Spotlighted

agreed

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:41 PM★ Spotlighted

there must be a burnout point for most activists

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:50 PM★ Spotlighted

only 12 minutes till i can watch Bill Nye kick Ken Hamm around like a can

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:52 PM★ Spotlighted

I figured as much!

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:54 PM★ Spotlighted

Hey girl...HI!! I'm awake now....Carrie

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:56 PM

patrick here I have been holding her the whole time and typing with one hand, Katie

Patrick KellyFeb 4, 2014, 11:59 PM★ Spotlighted

Thanks to you both