Kayt Sukel

Host

You're wearing what?!

Jul 30, 2014·4,780 visitors

Melanie Berliet

Cohost

Stage· 206 messages

Jul 30, 2014

Any good feminist will tell you that women shouldn't be judged by the clothes they wear. Yet they often are the first to get up in arms about children's wear that is too risque. What is it about female clothing that leads to such controversy? Melanie Berliet and Kayt Sukel discuss.

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

Hello!

Kayt Sukel · 5:00 PM

So I'm going to start today's chat with a story. The inspiration for this Tawk.

Melanie Berliet · 5:00 PM

Hello hello!

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

A few months ago, I was reading an obnoxious story that basically was blaming a rape victim for her clothing choices.

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

I was horrified. How dare someone suggest that a mini-skirt ok's rape?

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

Or invites it?

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

But later that afternoon, I took my step-daughter shopping for clothes.

Kayt Sukel · 5:01 PM

She wanted a mini-skirt. And not just any mini-skirt. A mini-skirt that said "Cutie pie" across the posterior.

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

Ah! Was she allowed to purchase it?

Kayt Sukel · 5:02 PM

And I was all, "Hell, no."

Melanie Berliet · 5:02 PM

Did you notice in the moment the contradiction in your thought process? Or did it hit you later?

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

So how is it that I believe a woman has the right to walk down the street buck naked if she wants to--and not invite punishment of any sort--but I am repelled by a kid's medium mini-skirt?

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

It hit me later.

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

Because my first thought when I saw it was "inappropriate."

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

It's a very good question. I had a discussion recently with a girlfriend about what we would or would not allow our hypothetical children to wear.

Kayt Sukel · 5:03 PM

And, later, as I thought more about the experience, I considered just how often we use the term "inappropriate" for women's clothing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:03 PM

She was against the idea of a 7-year-old in a bikini

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

I know a lot of parents who are against a 7-year-old in a bikini!

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

But you know, I think we even need to back up.

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

Inappropriate is definitely a frequent association when it comes to what women wear. Especially women in the public eye

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

We are against certain women in bikinis.

Melanie Berliet · 5:04 PM

You mean women of a certain body type?

Kayt Sukel · 5:04 PM

So why do we put so much stock in what a woman wears?

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

Not just a certain body type. A certain age.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

A certain "type" of woman.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

(Moms, for example)

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

I think the thinking is rooted in an assumption that women's bodies are inherently sensual

Melanie Berliet · 5:05 PM

That we exude sex by showing skin

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

You have a point there.

Kayt Sukel · 5:05 PM

But that kind of gives off the idea that all we are is sex.

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

That we aren't also thinkers and doers and businesswomen and mothers and the 10 million other things we are.

Kayt Sukel · 5:06 PM

It sets us up as objects.

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

It's also a bit insulting to men. That they can't resist us--that they don't have the control to hand themselves--if we are showing skin.

Melanie Berliet · 5:07 PM

yeah, it's problematic. Do you think the association is already ingrained in kids? Why do you think your daughter wanted that short skirt? Did she have any idea that it was "sexy"?

Kayt Sukel · 5:07 PM

She thought it was "cute."

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

But "cute" and "sexy" are kind of the same when it comes to the kind of clothes her idols wear.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

Or at least, they aren't too far removed.

Melanie Berliet · 5:08 PM

Right. So she's definitely gravitating to what she sees adult women wearing

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

I'd say so.

Kayt Sukel · 5:08 PM

I think she liked the skirt mostly because it was pink and sparkly.

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

And, to be honest, if it didn't have writing on the ass, I probably would have been okay with it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:09 PM

But I don't know why a grade schoolers butt should be drawing attention to itself.

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

I loathe that writing on the butt look! But only as a matter of personal taste

Melanie Berliet · 5:09 PM

Ah, right.

Kayt Sukel · 5:10 PM

But I think my own experience sort of brings up more of a collective experience: we have a lot of attitudes about clothing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:10 PM

I guess it shouldn't matter what parts of our body are highlighted.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

We have a lot of ideas about what certain types of clothing say about the person wearing them.

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

We even have TV shows that are all about changing what a woman is wearing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:11 PM

Definitely. I mean, should it ever matter what anyone wears? This all got me thinking about corporate dress codes...

Kayt Sukel · 5:11 PM

Why do we put so much stock on what a woman wears?

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin's outfits are scrutinized way more than any male policians.

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

Did you have a dress code when you worked on Wall Street?

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

Oh yes we did!

Kayt Sukel · 5:12 PM

Not just their outfits either! Their hair! Their make-up!

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

I was thinking about all the sweater sets and corporate outfits I once wore.

Melanie Berliet · 5:12 PM

I truly loathed having a dress code. It felt stifling

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

And in that environment, any time I would wear anything at all interesting looking (a patterned pair of tights, say, or a large ring) it would be commented on ALL DAY LONG

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

Patterned tights?! Really?

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

You rebel!

Melanie Berliet · 5:13 PM

I really believe corporations should replace there dress codes with a code of conduct that prohibits talking about someone's clothing.

Kayt Sukel · 5:13 PM

That's an interesting idea.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

And I can honestly say I would have been a happier and more productive employee if I were allowed to wear what I wanted at all times

Kayt Sukel · 5:14 PM

Most places with dress codes have them so people look "professional" and to avoid distractions of too loud/skimpy/whatever clothing choices.

Melanie Berliet · 5:14 PM

To me, clothing is a form of self expression

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

But, that again raises the question, why is an orange skirt or patterned tights a distraction to begin with?

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

Yeah. I think the responsibility should lie with the person who's distracted by such things

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

Not with the person who wants to wear them

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

Do you think you did a less effective job on days you wore more creative stuff?

Melanie Berliet · 5:15 PM

And I am inclined not to set rules about what my kids wear, though I am not a parent yet

Kayt Sukel · 5:15 PM

Or do you think people perceived that you did?

Melanie Berliet · 5:16 PM

It was definitely annoying to receive ongoing commentary on the days I expressed myself somehow through my wardrobe. But if people had just shut up, I could have been my happier self

Kayt Sukel · 5:16 PM

The kid thing is tough.

Melanie Berliet · 5:17 PM

I think my colleagues just jumped at the opportunity to pick on me. It was something to do for them. Something to talk about.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

Obviously, I have my own tastes. And they don't bend towards the animal prints and sparkly pink stuff.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

My daughter, however, LOVES THE PINK.

Kayt Sukel · 5:17 PM

I actually just bought her a bright pink/zebra striped suitcase.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

Yeah. Some of the stuff I see kids wearing I would never want my future child to wear. But when I say that, it's always more of a matter of style than whether or not the clothes are risque

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

She adores it. I cringe a little every time I look at it (though it will be easy to pick out on the baggage carousel).

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

But style matters, too.

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

Not just skimp.

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

I'm fine with a bikini.

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

Not with something written on the butt.

Kayt Sukel · 5:18 PM

Am I splitting hairs? I don't know.

Melanie Berliet · 5:18 PM

hahaha, a hot pink suitcase is definitely easy to find!

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

But I also think it's a matter of where you are and what you are doing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

I suppose it's a parent's right to parent

Kayt Sukel · 5:19 PM

I have no problem with my daughter wearing a bikini to the pool. But when she's suggested wearing a bikini top and shorts to her gymnastics practice, I've said "absolutely not."

Melanie Berliet · 5:19 PM

But the risk is that we're ingraining the negative associations by way of playing into them

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

But it's not a "risque" thing. It's a, "You're going to be jumping and running and tumbling. I don't think the top will stay on--and I think you will be embarrassed if it comes off."

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

It's tough.

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

That's funny! Yeah, I would say it's a safety risk not to wear the standard leotard during gymnastics practice.

Kayt Sukel · 5:20 PM

I never want her to think that her clothes merit unwanted attention, physically or verbally.

Melanie Berliet · 5:20 PM

As a mom, Kayt, how do you feel about school uniforms?

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

But I also think she's at the age now where she has to consider the environment she will be in.

Melanie Berliet · 5:21 PM

Some of the alleged benefits of school uniforms: benefits: reduce non-academic distractions, less stress on parents, safety (strangers stick out)

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

I mean, I know you hate the sweater sets.

Kayt Sukel · 5:21 PM

But I'm guessing you dress a little differently when you are going to interview an important source or meet with an editor over hanging out with friends.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

That is definitely true! I play to my environment in dressing.

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

The uniform thing also cuts down on bullying--and bullying via SES.

Melanie Berliet · 5:22 PM

Though I always try to be true to myself. So for me "conservative" can mean a high neck, knee length dress with polkadots. And the dots make me happy

Kayt Sukel · 5:22 PM

When everyone has to wear the same uniform, no one is making fun of a girl for having to get her clothes at Wal-Mart as opposed to Justice.

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

And I wish I were making that up. I've seen that happen in second graders.

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

The label whoring starts early in suburbia.

Melanie Berliet · 5:23 PM

I definitely see the upside

Kayt Sukel · 5:23 PM

That's the line to draw though, right? You want to encourage self-expression and comfort.

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

But you also have to teach kids, "I know you like those bright green shorts. But they may not be the best bet for a nice restaurant or church or some other environment."

Melanie Berliet · 5:24 PM

Yeah. So how do we acknowledge the bias in society without kowtowing to it?

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

That's tough.

Kayt Sukel · 5:24 PM

And I may be at even more of a disadvantage since I work at home.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

My daily uniform consists of jeans and a t-shirt.

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

How do we avoid mixed messages: Look good, but not too good! Pay attention to vanity, but don't be obvious about it! Be different, but about the same as everyone else!

Melanie Berliet · 5:25 PM

At the risk of sounding creepy, Kayt, what are you wearing RIGHT NOW?

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

I'm going to give a TEDMED talk in September--and so will have to dress "professional"--and I'm getting kind of anxious about it.

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

What's comfortable yet appropriate?

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

What will actually work?

Kayt Sukel · 5:25 PM

HA!

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

I am currently in a low v-neck t-shirt (CLEAVAGE!) and jeans.

Kayt Sukel · 5:26 PM

And you?

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

That's exciting about the TEDMED talk! Congratulations

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

I'm wearing jean short cutoffs (DIY style) and a navy blue shirt.

Melanie Berliet · 5:26 PM

I feel comfy casual.

Melanie Berliet · 5:27 PM

I think you should have cleavage for TEDMED

Kayt Sukel · 5:27 PM

Well, the thing about being as blessed as I am in the boob department, cleavage is usually a given.

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

You're lucky! I think a hint of cleavage is always fine.

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

But, even as adults, I think we can struggle sometimes. What is appropriate? What works for this environment?

Kayt Sukel · 5:28 PM

And it's not always clear.

Melanie Berliet · 5:28 PM

But I don't turn into a ravenous caveman upon seeing boob slits

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

HA!

Melanie Berliet · 5:29 PM

Can we really blame people for making clothing based judgments?

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

Blame...

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

Well, I think a lot of it is superficial.

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

What can clothing really tell you about a person?

Kayt Sukel · 5:29 PM

If I do show boob, am I telling you I'm free-spirited? Or a slut?

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

If I like Armani, does that mean I have good taste or I'm a label whore?

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

If I shop vintage, am I quirky or just broke?

Melanie Berliet · 5:30 PM

Yeah. I mean, if you think about it...what someone chooses to wear is a reflection of their current mood..it's a slice of their personality...it shouldn't speak to who they are in any BIG PICTURE way

Kayt Sukel · 5:30 PM

And notice that I don't think we make these value judgments about the dudes.

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

We don't. And maybe that's because there's more of an unwritten general uniform for men's clothes

Kayt Sukel · 5:31 PM

Suits or khakis/button-down for work? Star Wars t-shirt and jeans for play?

Melanie Berliet · 5:31 PM

Dudes dress much more homogenously.

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

So maybe all of the options for women out there are a problem. As much as I love choice....

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

Well, a lot of the economic/psych research shows that too much choice does work against us.

Kayt Sukel · 5:32 PM

Leads to bad decisions.

Melanie Berliet · 5:32 PM

I do envy my boyfriend's stack of jeans and stack of t-shirts. And the speed with which he gets dressed every day as a result.

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

I read this study that women who wear red are seen as more sexually threatening: http://sciof.us/1joRHdY

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

Sexually threatening?

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

I'm not sure what to even say about that.

Melanie Berliet · 5:33 PM

Yeah. It annoyed me.

Kayt Sukel · 5:33 PM

(Or whether I should now admit I just bought a dark red dress for my upcoming vacation. It's hot).

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

I was once told that you want to be the person in red because it's more memorable...at a cocktail party or at a tryout for a sports team

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

I bet it's hot!

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

I can see that. Finding a way to stand out.

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

If you're in the mood to stand out, it's nice to have the option

Kayt Sukel · 5:34 PM

True.

Melanie Berliet · 5:34 PM

Have you heard of the Man Repeller?

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

There are also studies that show that women in estrus tend to wear more revealing outfits. http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/03/hormones.aspx

Kayt Sukel · 5:35 PM

The Man Repeller? No!

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

She's a young fashion blogger who's now considered very major by Vogue and style insiders. She promotes the idea of dressing for yourself, foremost....so she embraces clothing typically considered to repel men (like harem pants, or baggy clothes)

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

http://www.manrepeller.com/

Kayt Sukel · 5:36 PM

I do enjoy baggy jeans, myself.

Melanie Berliet · 5:36 PM

I do too! It all depends on my mood.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

But maybe that's the tack to take with daughters.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

Dress for comfort--physical, mental and emotional.

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

What makes you feel good? What makes you able to do all the stuff you want to do?

Kayt Sukel · 5:37 PM

WHAT DOESN'T CHAFE!

Melanie Berliet · 5:38 PM

Why do you think women are reduced to, or at least measured by, their looks, more than men in the first place?

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

There are all those evolutionary arguments that we're reduced to looks because we need to attract a mate that will want to stick around and help raise the kids.

Kayt Sukel · 5:38 PM

But I think what is attractive changes from culture to culture.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

Definitely.

Kayt Sukel · 5:39 PM

And, when I look at something like Chinese bound feet, I don't think I have a clue.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

Research by Daniel Hamermesh, author of "Beauty Pays: Why Attractive People are More Successful," shows that the top 1/3th of attractive females earns about 10% more annually than those in the bottom 1/6th of the genetic pool.

Melanie Berliet · 5:39 PM

Clothing is arguably a way to increase your "attractiveness" quotient...

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

Certainly so.

Kayt Sukel · 5:40 PM

But it's a double-edged sword. You want to be attractive enough to earn, but not so attractive that you get reduced to a stereotype and passed over.

Melanie Berliet · 5:40 PM

I hate to say that when I heard about "Entrepreneurship Barbie," my first reaction was that I hate her outfit: http://bit.ly/TrPe6q

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

Yeah, there's a delicate line to walk

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

between self expression and "appropriateness"

Kayt Sukel · 5:41 PM

Entrepreneurship Barbie still has the fit body and perfect face though.

Melanie Berliet · 5:41 PM

Right.

Melanie Berliet · 5:42 PM

What do you think about "slut walks"

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

I think they bring awareness--especially in cases where young women are blamed for their rapes and physical attacks.

Kayt Sukel · 5:43 PM

And that's a good thing.

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

(To circle back to your original comment). Wikipedia on "slutwalks" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

Melanie Berliet · 5:43 PM

Yes, I definitely like the message.

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

But would you wear one of those outfits to work?

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

NO!

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

(If you weren't doing an investigative story about lap dances or naked sushi).

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

It's a conundrum.

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

hahaha

Kayt Sukel · 5:44 PM

I don't think we're going to solve it in our 45 minute allotment.

Melanie Berliet · 5:44 PM

★ Spotlighted from Sasha A. Tcherevkoff

“I have nothing to wear!”

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

But, like slut walks, I think awareness is key.

Kayt Sukel · 5:45 PM

That we do our best to try to help ourselves--and our daughters--understand the contradictions when it comes to clothes, to promote self-expression.

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

And not be so damn judgmental!

Kayt Sukel · 5:46 PM

(That said, I'm still not buying my daughter clothes with something written on the butt).

Melanie Berliet · 5:47 PM

Yeah. I think we're all destined to make some superficial judgments (even if we catch ourselves right after) because there are risks to ignoring the contradictions society ingrains in us

Kayt Sukel · 5:48 PM

Knowing is half the battle!

Kayt Sukel · 5:48 PM

And on that note, I think we're done here for the day!

Melanie Berliet · 5:48 PM

Indeed!

Kayt Sukel · 5:48 PM

But tune in next week where we'll be talking the Hobby Lobby aftermath with Americans United attorney Greg Lipper.

Kayt Sukel · 5:48 PM

It's gonna be fun!

Melanie Berliet · 5:48 PM

Thank you for reading/listening. We'll be here again in ONE week

Kayt Sukel · 5:48 PM

As always, Melanie, a pleasure!

Melanie Berliet · 5:48 PM

Until then, Kayt! (I'm reachable at melanie dot berliet at gmail dot com)

Melanie Berliet · 5:49 PM

Absolutely!

Kayt Sukel · 5:49 PM

Adios! (And you can find me at info at kaytsukel dot com).